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Post by Spaced Out Looney on May 9, 2009 22:16:29 GMT -5
First reaction: This needed to be 2 hours long. Felt like 2 hours to me. In a mostly good way.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on May 9, 2009 22:21:38 GMT -5
Wait, wait, wait. Just read elsewhere the notion that Ballard totally traded himself for Madeleine and introduced himself as "nobody" because he's become a "contractor" --- that is, he's contracted himself to be an ACTIVE! Obviously. How did I miss that? What do you all think of that idea. I'm sure some of you saw it immediately. Hmm... I'll have to watch that scene again. I was thinking he was going to work as a handler or something because Boyd looked at him like he sort of identified with him, and because he wasn't in that room where other future dolls seem to sign their deal with the devil. But he did say he was "nobody" so hmm...
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on May 9, 2009 22:26:11 GMT -5
Doc Saunders wonders why Topher programmed her to hate him to much. Are they related? Is she is sister maybe? I NEED another season. Yes, I do. Not in the way I needed another Buffy season because I loved the people and would (do) miss them so much, but because it really has become so VERY intriguing. Like reading a good scifi or mystery book and only reading book 1 of a trilogy (or more). Responding to this one, because it hit the things that struck me. So to speak. Please excuse incoherence as the fluffycat woke me at 5AM, and it's too warm to sleep anyway. I'd like to know why Topher programmed "Dr Saunders" the way he did, yes. Perhaps he was as attracted to Whiskey as everyone else ("number one girl" ) , and was trying to protect himself?I'd like to know what was up with Echo's putting her hand over Topher's heart. Does she have some remnant of Whiskey's upload, the one that Alpha uploaded? Was there something in that personality that was attracted to Topher? Oh the whole, though, I think I'd rather read the book. I'd also like to know what the flaming they were thinking when they tested the equipment on someone who was, according to his criminal record, a budding serial killer. Pre-Alpha was already unstable and they messed around with his brain? I mean, really, guys! Poor Victor. Poor whoever-Victor-was-before. Wait, wait, wait. Just read elsewhere the notion that Ballard totally traded himself for Madeleine and introduced himself as "nobody" because he's become a "contractor" --- that is, he's contracted himself to be an ACTIVE! Obviously. How did I miss that? What do you all think of that idea. I'm sure some of you saw it immediately. No, no I didn't and ewww ewww ewww. Ballard won't be much good finding Alpha if he's been mind-wiped. If he's going to be of any use, it'll be as a free agent with all his faculties intact (not to mention contacts - what about that other agent who's starting to believe), not a doll.
I did find the Madeleine-trade appropriate - not to discount Ballard's feelings for M, but freeing Caroline/Echo would only have put her at greater risk. Right now she is safer in the Dollhouse where she can be tracked than she would be loose on the streets. Alpha is obsessed with her, and he's going to be back. They always come back...It just occurred to me that somebody had better get pre-Alpha's last victim into protective custody before he remembers his unfinished project.I had other thoughts, but they went poof. I haven't seen any indication that Topher is attracted to anyone sexually or romantically, much less Whiskey/Dr. Sanders.It seemed like a gesture of compassion too me. Ah, yeah. That makes sense.Good point! Some one should get on that stat.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on May 9, 2009 22:33:02 GMT -5
I'd like to know why Topher programmed "Dr Saunders" the way he did, yes. Perhaps he was as attracted to Whiskey as everyone else ("number one girl" ) , and was trying to protect himself? I'd like to know what was up with Echo's putting her hand over Topher's heart. Does she have some remnant of Whiskey's upload, the one that Alpha uploaded? Was there something in that personality that was attracted to Topher? Taken together this might point to Topher being "undercover" guy, at least in some capacity. Even typing that I at first reject the premise because how could a "good guy" do what Topher does. On the other hand, if he believes/knows that the combined Dollhouses are planning something like world domination or the Apocalypse maybe he's convinced himself that the end justifies the means. However, he's doing what small things he can-- motivating Saunders to stay away from him (although that might also be self-protection because he knows something about her that he fears---like that she might be able to figure out what he's up to), allowing the dolls to retain some of their core personalities, programming Mellie and Echo to talk to Ballard. He's keeps protesting (too much) "that's not possible" and "this shouldn't be happening" but maybe that's just a cover. I mean, he's the obvious person to be doing all this stuff but I discounted him because: 1. what he does is just soooo reprehensible that I wouldn't consider him to be a "good" guy. 2. especially in the early eps I just really didn't like him at all --- even aside from his function -- it was sort of a visceral reaction 3. it was too obvious so it couldn't be him. Am beginning to think that the Topher actor is also quite good, like Victor. Joss seems to have a talent for spotting good actors. And he seems to like casting them so that they get to stretch: the good guy is then cast as a bad guy, etc. [Tudyk, Fillion, Zoe]. ED was cast perfectly in the role of Faith, I"m still waiting to see if she can play against type. So far she's competent, but not great, at subtle differences.
Thinking out loud here: Amy Acker and Summer Glau both seem to be able, when necessary, come off as gorgeous sexpots but at other times to disappear into less extravagant, more mousy (?) identities. My sense is that ED is so extravagantly gorgeous that that works against her playing less than herself. But, maybe it really is just less acting ability. Julia Roberts manages it.
She really needs to a have a role where she's not all made up in order to see whether she's more than all face and figure. Does that make sense?*Nods* One of Joss's great strengths is finding talent and bringing out the best talent in his cast and crew. And unfortunately, ED isn't really bringing what I thought/was hoping she would to the table. It seems like in Dollhouse, like in Buffy and Angel (IMHO), the lead is the weakest link. But luckily the other actors make up for it.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on May 9, 2009 22:38:46 GMT -5
Taken together this might point to Topher being "undercover" guy, at least in some capacity. Even typing that I at first reject the premise because how could a "good guy" do what Topher does. On the other hand, if he believes/knows that the combined Dollhouses are planning something like world domination or the Apocalypse maybe he's convinced himself that the end justifies the means. However, he's doing what small things he can-- motivating Saunders to stay away from him (although that might also be self-protection because he knows something about her that he fears---like that she might be able to figure out what he's up to), allowing the dolls to retain some of their core personalities, programming Mellie and Echo to talk to Ballard. He's keeps protesting (too much) "that's not possible" and "this shouldn't be happening" but maybe that's just a cover. I mean, he's the obvious person to be doing all this stuff but I discounted him because: 1. what he does is just soooo reprehensible that I wouldn't consider him to be a "good" guy. 2. especially in the early eps I just really didn't like him at all --- even aside from his function -- it was sort of a visceral reaction 3. it was too obvious so it couldn't be him. Am beginning to think that the Topher actor is also quite good, like Victor. Joss seems to have a talent for spotting good actors. And he seems to like casting them so that they get to stretch: the good guy is then cast as a bad guy, etc. [Tudyk, Fillion, Zoe]. ED was cast perfectly in the role of Faith, I"m still waiting to see if she can play against type. So far she's competent, but not great, at subtle differences. Thinking out loud here: Amy Acker and Summer Glau both seem to be able, when necessary, come off as gorgeous sexpots but at other times to disappear into less extravagant, more mousy (?) identities. My sense is that ED is so extravagantly gorgeous that that works against her playing less than herself. But, maybe it really is just less acting ability. Julia Roberts manages it. She really needs to a have a role where she's not all made up in order to see whether she's more than all face and figure. Does that make sense? Topher almost has to be involved in the leaks - he's the only one who really knows how to program the dolls, and he's the only one who could hide the records of the special programming. Unless he's another doll, programmed by someone further up the chain of command, who is programmed by someone... My brain hurts.I fear that ED is actually rather limited in her acting - this show requires more depth than she's given the role so far. Cat wants in. Thought go bye-bye. I think that that Naked Time episode proves that Adelle, Topher, and Boyd (and Dominic, but that's a moot point) are definitely not dolls, since they reacted to the drug the way other people did, not the way the dolls did. I realized after discussion in the last episode about Whiskey/Dr. Sanders that we never saw her affected by the drug in that episode at all. I'm not even sure we saw her in that episode.
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Post by Matthew on May 10, 2009 14:41:40 GMT -5
Wait, wait, wait. Just read elsewhere the notion that Ballard totally traded himself for Madeleine and introduced himself as "nobody" because he's become a "contractor" --- that is, he's contracted himself to be an ACTIVE! Obviously. How did I miss that? What do you all think of that idea. I'm sure some of you saw it immediately. Well, yeah. Adelle's Teapot of Surrendered Identity was right there on the coffee table.
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Post by Lola m on May 10, 2009 16:09:07 GMT -5
Doc Saunders wonders why Topher programmed her to hate him to much. Are they related? Is she is sister maybe? I NEED another season. Yes, I do. Not in the way I needed another Buffy season because I loved the people and would (do) miss them so much, but because it really has become so VERY intriguing. Like reading a good scifi or mystery book and only reading book 1 of a trilogy (or more). Responding to this one, because it hit the things that struck me. So to speak. Please excuse incoherence as the fluffycat woke me at 5AM, and it's too warm to sleep anyway. I'd like to know why Topher programmed "Dr Saunders" the way he did, yes. Perhaps he was as attracted to Whiskey as everyone else ("number one girl" ) , and was trying to protect himself? I'd like to know what was up with Echo's putting her hand over Topher's heart. Does she have some remnant of Whiskey's upload, the one that Alpha uploaded? Was there something in that personality that was attracted to Topher? Oh the whole, though, I think I'd rather read the book. I'd also like to know what the flaming they were thinking when they tested the equipment on someone who was, according to his criminal record, a budding serial killer. Pre-Alpha was already unstable and they messed around with his brain? I mean, really, guys! Poor Victor. Poor whoever-Victor-was-before. Wait, wait, wait. Just read elsewhere the notion that Ballard totally traded himself for Madeleine and introduced himself as "nobody" because he's become a "contractor" --- that is, he's contracted himself to be an ACTIVE! Obviously. How did I miss that? What do you all think of that idea. I'm sure some of you saw it immediately. No, no I didn't and ewww ewww ewww. Ballard won't be much good finding Alpha if he's been mind-wiped. If he's going to be of any use, it'll be as a free agent with all his faculties intact (not to mention contacts - what about that other agent who's starting to believe), not a doll. I did find the Madeleine-trade appropriate - not to discount Ballard's feelings for M, but freeing Caroline/Echo would only have put her at greater risk. Right now she is safer in the Dollhouse where she can be tracked than she would be loose on the streets. Alpha is obsessed with her, and he's going to be back. They always come back... It just occurred to me that somebody had better get pre-Alpha's last victim into protective custody before he remembers his unfinished project. I had other thoughts, but they went poof. I'm wondering about lots of possibilities for whst Dr Saunders said about why Topher made her hate him. He just gets so wraped up in building complexity that he didn't even realize the extent of what that would mean? He was doing it out of some level of guilt feelings or other issues about Whiskey? He was replicating the other Dr Saunders in some warped way? Or, are we sure that Topher really did do this? Could the hate be some element of the original person inside Dr S/Whiskey?
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Post by Lola m on May 10, 2009 16:22:00 GMT -5
Teaser Aftermath of Alpha's infiltration. The Dolls have GPS and biotracker implants. Alpha and Echo cruisin'. Alpha's got a multiple personality thing going on. I wonder what his plan is or if he even has one. And which personality is "he" anyway? Oh, they've got some one in the back. The owner of the car, I presume. One of the most intriguing thing about this last ep, to me, was the idea of some kind of "core" person being there in the physical body when the personality has been removed. Does this mean the process of wiping is simply not as complete as they believe? Does this mean there is an apect of the person not lodged solely in the mind? And the fact that these "cores" of personality can react against or in defiance of the rest of the personality . . . is just so very very interesting to me!
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Post by Lola m on May 10, 2009 16:25:30 GMT -5
Part I A few years ago. More incompetence on display from Dollhouse employees. First signs of Alpha cracking. More incompetence from Topher on display. Alpha's imprinted as an interrogator? Mafia/gang member/drug dealer? Tied up guy knows Alpha's a doll. Ah, Tied Up Guy paid for this scenario to fulfill a fantasy. This is what happens when you get what you pay for.This is the imprint that Alpha's got now. Or the primary one, or whatever. Sanders is a doll. And she was originally the one with the imprint that Echo's got now. Back in the present at the Dollhouse. Adelle and Ballard have a private chat. This is going to be good. Alpha situation is "an unfortunate technological anomaly." Oh, is that what it is, Adelle? For once, Ballard and I are on the same wavelength. Adelle shifts all the blame onto Ballard. "defiling the house." Interest choice of words.Ballard offers to diffuse the situation. Rossum is the front for the Dollhouse. Tries to tell Mark Shepherd but MS doesn't believe him. As Adelle expected. Alpha took all of Echoes imprints. Ah, he's built himself a chair of his own. Is he trying to be the Dollhouse's competitor? Much nodding and yessing!
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Post by Lola m on May 10, 2009 16:30:38 GMT -5
Part IV Carl William Craft. Ah, Alpha's original name. Three names, always ominous. Heh. THEY USED PRISONERS!?!? 1) Nothing could go wrong with that!! 2) Another Frankenstein reference.3) Reference to unethical use of prisoners for experimentation throughout the 20th century and before. Ballard and Boyd are rapidly becoming a buddy cop movie. Heh. Back to Alpha vs Omega: This Time It's Personal. Her is me. Her is the old you. We're not multiple personalities, we're many personalities. I'm looking for a little nuance here. Heh. Alpha thinks he's the UberMensche. EchoOmega does a little ruminating on identity. Now we're on the set of American Gladiators. Ballard and Boyd. It's light out already. Either this was the shortest night ever or they've been driving a really long time. Ballard asks Boyd an Excellent Question. Anita Walsh. And she's got the same kind of scars. Back to Worst. Breakup. Ever. Echo is nobody. Caroline wants to honor her contract. Echo thinks that's hogwash. We have a black president? Hee. Oops, I guess Alpha wasn't knocked out after all. Yes! Frankenstein was soooo much a theme in this ep!!
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Post by Lola m on May 10, 2009 16:41:35 GMT -5
Coda Whiskey's discovered her true identity. Why did you decide it was so important for me to hate you? I think that's strange. Hmm... Wow, what went on between Topher and Whiskey? Or between who Whiskey used to be. Alpha is still at large. Ah, November's term is is up. So I guess the Dollhouse really does honor their contracts. Oh, I guess that Ballard's agreeing to work for the Dollhouse in exchange for letting November go. Echo is back to a blank slate. Or is she? Poor Victor. November doesn't seem to be any worse for the wear. Or is she? Oh, I guess WhiskeySanders does give out lollipops. That's nice. November's real name is Madeline. Echo's still going above and beyond her blank slate state. Topher is oddly shaken. And you are? I'm nobody. How apt. Everybody's got to learn sometime. Boyd looks at Ballard with pity? Did he have a similar experience?Caroline. We got a definite Ballard = Boyd = Ballard vibe all thru this ep, didn't we?
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Post by Lola m on May 10, 2009 16:42:50 GMT -5
Oh, Doc Saunders . . . "I'm not just Bobby." Whoa! Flashback!! Whoa. So . . . this guy bought a cross-country crime spree with psychos?!? OMG! The folks who thought Doc S was an active, sooooooo right! "Whiskey, would you like a treatment?" Whoa!! Whoa!! Whoa!! "The alpha situation was an unfortunate technical anomaly." Well. That's one way to put it. Brought this thing in . . . to defile again. Hmmm.Ballard can make this go away. So, he's gonna claim he's helping them? Only, of course, he tries to spill the beans and no one believes him. Whoa. Every personality that was ever in Echo is gone? He took them? Does he want to build another multiple personality like him to be his girlfriend? Is Frankenstein's monster building his own bride? I think that for Adelle, her work is not just a job to her, it's a spiritual experience. Like she's the High Priestess or something. There's a couple people who seem to think they're on a mission here, but no one more than Adelle.
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Post by Lola m on May 10, 2009 16:44:22 GMT -5
Responding to this one, because it hit the things that struck me. So to speak. Please excuse incoherence as the fluffycat woke me at 5AM, and it's too warm to sleep anyway. I'd like to know why Topher programmed "Dr Saunders" the way he did, yes. Perhaps he was as attracted to Whiskey as everyone else ("number one girl" ) , and was trying to protect himself?I'd like to know what was up with Echo's putting her hand over Topher's heart. Does she have some remnant of Whiskey's upload, the one that Alpha uploaded? Was there something in that personality that was attracted to Topher? Oh the whole, though, I think I'd rather read the book. I'd also like to know what the flaming they were thinking when they tested the equipment on someone who was, according to his criminal record, a budding serial killer. Pre-Alpha was already unstable and they messed around with his brain? I mean, really, guys! Poor Victor. Poor whoever-Victor-was-before. No, no I didn't and ewww ewww ewww. Ballard won't be much good finding Alpha if he's been mind-wiped. If he's going to be of any use, it'll be as a free agent with all his faculties intact (not to mention contacts - what about that other agent who's starting to believe), not a doll.
I did find the Madeleine-trade appropriate - not to discount Ballard's feelings for M, but freeing Caroline/Echo would only have put her at greater risk. Right now she is safer in the Dollhouse where she can be tracked than she would be loose on the streets. Alpha is obsessed with her, and he's going to be back. They always come back...It just occurred to me that somebody had better get pre-Alpha's last victim into protective custody before he remembers his unfinished project.I had other thoughts, but they went poof. I haven't seen any indication that Topher is attracted to anyone sexually or romantically, much less Whiskey/Dr. Sanders.It seemed like a gesture of compassion too me. Ah, yeah. That makes sense.Good point! Some one should get on that stat.**nods to the blue**
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Post by Lola m on May 10, 2009 16:45:55 GMT -5
Wait, wait, wait. Just read elsewhere the notion that Ballard totally traded himself for Madeleine and introduced himself as "nobody" because he's become a "contractor" --- that is, he's contracted himself to be an ACTIVE! Obviously. How did I miss that? What do you all think of that idea. I'm sure some of you saw it immediately. Well, yeah. Adelle's Teapot of Surrendered Identity was right there on the coffee table. **snicker** Also? Ooooooooh! I hadn't made that connection!
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Post by artemis on May 10, 2009 17:35:31 GMT -5
Wait, wait, wait. Just read elsewhere the notion that Ballard totally traded himself for Madeleine and introduced himself as "nobody" because he's become a "contractor" --- that is, he's contracted himself to be an ACTIVE! Obviously. How did I miss that? What do you all think of that idea. I'm sure some of you saw it immediately. personally, i felt at the time that it could be read either way. he and boyd ironically seem to work very well together now that they're not fighting, so it seems to me like they would be a good team. but the ambiguous way it was worded left them open to having him "trade" himself as an active for madeline as well, and i finished the episode unsure which they meant (deliberately on the part of the writers, IMHO).
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