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Post by artemis on May 10, 2009 17:49:19 GMT -5
I'd like to know why Topher programmed "Dr Saunders" the way he did, yes. Perhaps he was as attracted to Whiskey as everyone else ("number one girl" ) , and was trying to protect himself? i found it interesting that the new dr. saunders assumed it was programming at all, much less deliberate programming. topher neither agreed with her nor denied it. like with the scene with ballard, i found myself wondering which was actually true, and felt that the ambiguity was again intentional on the part of the writers. me, too! or now that she has more blatantly retained some remnant of caroline or at least the idea that she has in the past been caroline (depending on one's interpretation of the murmuring at the end of the episode), does she perhaps feel some sympathy for topher, the way many viewers have developed some over the course of the episodes? it really hits home the whole "can't sign a contract to be a slave" thing, though, in a very real-world sort of way, since prisoners and other people who are easiest to take advantage of have historically been the first experimented on by unethical scientists/scientific companies. indeed! did anyone post a link to the interview with the actor on the dollhouse board? i thought it was a really interesting read. i agree that ballard is quite useful to the dollhouse with his current skills. i can see members of the staff making the argument, though, that they could take his self, turn it into an imprint, wipe him and then use him as an active and imprint any of the actives with his skillset. they definitely seem to already have a lot of imprints with similar skillsets (i still really wonder a lot where they get their imprints from).
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Post by artemis on May 10, 2009 17:57:13 GMT -5
Ballard can make this go away. So, he's gonna claim he's helping them? Only, of course, he tries to spill the beans and no one believes him. i was really, really curious about that particular scene. wasn't that the coworker that was most derisive of his idea that there was a dollhouse, and convinced he was going to be fired or suspended because of his 'wacky' ideas? it seemed to me like ballard hatched his plan when specifically noting which coworker had showed up. so i wondered whether he told the guy about the dollhouse specifically so that the guy would mistakenly believe that ballard was on his "dollhouse crusade" again (including that it had been ballard, not alpha, who called the threat in) and thus leave. i also wondered whether perhaps in the future the conversation will come back to the coworker in a new context, the way the other coworker suddenly started to believe ballard when he tried to trace november's true identity.
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Post by artemis on May 10, 2009 18:09:39 GMT -5
"She abandoned you . . . She left you to the jackals, the wolves, the predators." Huh. This? Is a very interesting different viewpoint on all this. Are the original personalities victims? Volunteers? The perpetrators, with their own bodies as the victims . . . ? Whoa! Twisty!! i agree; i thought that was fascinating. i also thought the line about how echo could tell that she was just a vessel, even with all the imprinted people inside of her, was really interesting. i wonder if the fact that so many of the imprints (most, maybe?) seem to be composites adds to a feeling of hollowness. 'cause look how well that's turned out for him! i actually thought it was the opposite - that alpha's obsession with echo was growing and growing (it seemed to start when he saw her as caroline, pre-wiping) and that his resentment of whiskey grew in proportion to his obsession. my personal interpretation was that he wounded whiskey's face so that she would no longer be able to be hired out as an active. the show seems to somewhat support that. even with alpha's original self totally destroyed, he still does some of the same behaviors he did before he was ever an active at all.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on May 10, 2009 18:41:57 GMT -5
Ballard can make this go away. So, he's gonna claim he's helping them? Only, of course, he tries to spill the beans and no one believes him. i was really, really curious about that particular scene. wasn't that the coworker that was most derisive of his idea that there was a dollhouse, and convinced he was going to be fired or suspended because of his 'wacky' ideas? it seemed to me like ballard hatched his plan when specifically noting which coworker had showed up. so i wondered whether he told the guy about the dollhouse specifically so that the guy would mistakenly believe that ballard was on his "dollhouse crusade" again (including that it had been ballard, not alpha, who called the threat in) and thus leave. i also wondered whether perhaps in the future the conversation will come back to the coworker in a new context, the way the other coworker suddenly started to believe ballard when he tried to trace november's true identity. I've been thinking that even if Mark Shepherd's character never believes Ballard, he's going to mention it to Bald Black FBI Lady and she's going to put it together and maybe start looking into things himself, particularly if Ballard disappears off the grid.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on May 10, 2009 20:03:59 GMT -5
One thing I've been wondering, now that we've seen that the Dollhouse does indeed honor their contract, or at least, they are willing to let November/Madelaine go when it's to their advantage, is how those who've been dolls readjust to being themselves again. For one, it must be a bit like having jumped into the future or having been in a coma for a while, lots of things can change in 5 years or so and I've seen enough movies with that scenario to know how devastating a time jump like that can be. Secondly, there's always a possibility of running into people who knew her during one of her engagements, assuming that she did more than just spy on Ballard. As a doll, I imagine that her handler would run interference in situations like that, but when she's on her own she could be vulnerable to any number of people who think she's some one else.
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Post by rich on May 10, 2009 20:45:57 GMT -5
i was really, really curious about that particular scene. wasn't that the coworker that was most derisive of his idea that there was a dollhouse, and convinced he was going to be fired or suspended because of his 'wacky' ideas? it seemed to me like ballard hatched his plan when specifically noting which coworker had showed up. so i wondered whether he told the guy about the dollhouse specifically so that the guy would mistakenly believe that ballard was on his "dollhouse crusade" again (including that it had been ballard, not alpha, who called the threat in) and thus leave. i also wondered whether perhaps in the future the conversation will come back to the coworker in a new context, the way the other coworker suddenly started to believe ballard when he tried to trace november's true identity. I've been thinking that even if Mark Shepherd's character never believes Ballard, he's going to mention it to Bald Black FBI Lady and she's going to put it together and maybe start looking into things himself, particularly if Ballard disappears off the grid. I thought Ballard saw it as a can't lose situation. Either Mark Shepard's character believes him and they go in and take down the Dollhouse, or he doesn't believe him and Ballard impresses DeWitt and is free to pursue his agenda (investigate the Dollhouse's deeper purpose from the inside). It was an utterly cynical, utterly practical move on Ballard's part with a little bit of "frak you" to Sheppard's character thrown in. Sadly, it made me think Ballard would fit right in at the Dollhouse after all.
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Post by rich on May 10, 2009 21:12:08 GMT -5
Ah, Dr Saunders has figured it out . . . "I think you gave me more computer skills than would be required by a medical doctor." Not waste the investment. "But why did you decide it was so important for me to hate you." Hmmmmm. Did he do that? Or is that her? Alpha still on the loose, so if we get another season by some miracle, we can have more wacked out Tudyk, which would be the best gift ever. Oh, Ballard. They bought you that easily? And he "saved" November!Mellie!Madeline, not Caroline!Echo. Oh, Echo putting her hand on Topher's heart. Yeah, Ballard, you kinda are nobody now. Ooooooooh!! And that final "Caroline"! Awesome, awesome, awesome ep! As you posit, it may be her. She seems to retain a sense of self-loathing from her mutilation as Whiskey. Blaming Topher may be part of that.
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Post by rich on May 10, 2009 21:34:53 GMT -5
I know this show is unlikely to be renewed, but I am hoping against hope that it will. It's nice to have a heroine whose superpowers are Compassion, Generosity and Integrity.
If Fox does give it a 2nd season, I hope ED finds herself a good (or if she's already got one, better) acting coach. Particularly one well versed in Spolin Theater Games. (If you've ever watched the show "Whose Line is it Anyway?", then you know what these are even if you didn't know what they're called.) I'm thinking the ability to instantly and fiercely commit to shifting situation and character, to leap into the unknown, excited by the possibility of extending the self, would come in very handy in dealing with the demands the role of Echo places on Ms D.
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Post by spacecat1974 on May 10, 2009 23:37:16 GMT -5
Just finished watching the episode. I think my brain is ready to explode.
While the trappings of Ballard possibly becoming an active are there, I think that it is unlikely. I think he's going to become more like Boyd.
I think Victor is handling his injuries a LOT better than WhiskeySaunders and I think she'll be the next one to snap. I also thought the parallels between Echo/Alpha and Sierra/Victor were interesting though I hope they don't end the same way. Unless they figure out a way to eliminate the scarring he won't be going anywhere since scars, especially facial scars, are very memorable. Though I do wonder why WhiskeySaunders' scars looked much better than those of William Craft's victim? The victim's scars look newer than WhiskeySaunders, which makes me wonder just how long ago this took place.
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Post by rich on May 11, 2009 14:03:18 GMT -5
Doc Saunders wonders why Topher programmed her to hate him to much. Are they related? Is she is sister maybe? I NEED another season. Yes, I do. Not in the way I needed another Buffy season because I loved the people and would (do) miss them so much, but because it really has become so VERY intriguing. Like reading a good scifi or mystery book and only reading book 1 of a trilogy (or more). I wondered if there was a family connection between Topher and Whiskey. I thought the original Doc Saunders might have been his father, but I like your idea too.
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Post by Lola m on May 11, 2009 21:11:13 GMT -5
I've been thinking that even if Mark Shepherd's character never believes Ballard, he's going to mention it to Bald Black FBI Lady and she's going to put it together and maybe start looking into things himself, particularly if Ballard disappears off the grid. I thought Ballard saw it as a can't lose situation. Either Mark Shepard's character believes him and they go in and take down the Dollhouse, or he doesn't believe him and Ballard impresses DeWitt and is free to pursue his agenda (investigate the Dollhouse's deeper purpose from the inside). It was an utterly cynical, utterly practical move on Ballard's part with a little bit of "frak you" to Sheppard's character thrown in. Sadly, it made me think Ballard would fit right in at the Dollhouse after all. Wow - I hadn't thought of this being a conscious decision beforehand. I mean, I thought he went there after his first conversation didn't work, but hadn't thought of this being his plan once he looked down and saw who was there. But now looking back, and knowing Ballard, yeah. I could see that.
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Post by Lola m on May 11, 2009 21:18:57 GMT -5
Just finished watching the episode. I think my brain is ready to explode. While the trappings of Ballard possibly becoming an active are there, I think that it is unlikely. I think he's going to become more like Boyd. I see him more in a Boyd role too, but I don't trust the Dollhouse to hold back from wiping and activating anyone they feel like. Ever. Which makes signing up with them in any way a poor choice. The fact that Dr S is so horrified by and hating herself and her scarred imperfection, and Victor is not, gives me another creepy thought. She's a constructed personality. So, how much of the self hatred is really her and how much was put into her?
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Post by spacecat1974 on May 12, 2009 0:34:35 GMT -5
I think that Ballard's speculation, and all the evidence so far points to it being true, that the actives still have core parts of themselves plays a big role here. She may not remember it all but she went from being the best and most popular to having her 'career' ended and her face disfigured. Not to mention the huge difference between how she was treated before versus after. It may not be something she consciously knows but I'm sure it affects her.
In short, I think the self-hatred might be her 'real' personality leaking through or maybe something resulting from all the personalities she had been programmed with. I seriously doubt it would be something they'd deliberately program her with. I mean, look at how she reacted to the possibility of the actives being released into the 'real' world during the training exercise? Having scars on your face really calls peoples' attention, especially if you are female. I think getting disfigured 'broke' her.
I wonder if she was the one who Topher used to program for his birthday?
Victor, at his core, is/was a soldier and would therefore likely to be less invested in his appearance. Right or wrong, men tend to have a bit more leeway here.
I hope that next season the go more into how Victor and Sierra (and Boyd) ended up where they are. And is WhiskeySaunders the only active on staff? Somehow I doubt it.
And while I'm thinking about it... How did Caroline not even know about the possibility of a black president? Over the course of the *season* WhiskeySaunders' scars have gotten noticeably better and when Caroline joined up they still had the old doctor so Alpha couldn't have been out that long.
Hmmm....
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Post by Sara on May 12, 2009 9:51:32 GMT -5
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Post by Karen on May 12, 2009 11:21:34 GMT -5
Teaser Aftermath of Alpha's infiltration. The Dolls have GPS and biotracker implants. Alpha and Echo cruisin'. Alpha's got a multiple personality thing going on. I wonder what his plan is or if he even has one. And which personality is "he" anyway? Oh, they've got some one in the back. The owner of the car, I presume. One of the most intriguing thing about this last ep, to me, was the idea of some kind of "core" person being there in the physical body when the personality has been removed. Does this mean the process of wiping is simply not as complete as they believe? Does this mean there is an apect of the person not lodged solely in the mind? And the fact that these "cores" of personality can react against or in defiance of the rest of the personality . . . is just so very very interesting to me!
I feel it's an exploration in nature vs nuture. How much of our memories are the result of our experiences, and how much of how we recall those memories result from our basic personality we were born with - which obviously (to me) did not result from any sort of experiences we had in the womb, but result from the WAY our brains and body sorts out information. 2 newborns can have the same experience, but their reactions to stimulus will be different. I think the Dollhouse technology can't do anything about the basic personality of the dolls - or the deeply FELT reaction to experiences they go through while doing doll duty.
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