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Post by Karen on May 12, 2009 11:37:19 GMT -5
Also - if memories can be captured and transferred by artificial means, who is to say that memories don't exist outside the body, held together by natural means that we don't understand.
As in ghostly existences - spirits. I am thinking we are not the boss of those manifestations of our 'souls'.
What Joss may be exploring is the question - is there life after death?
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Post by rich on May 12, 2009 12:55:50 GMT -5
Anyone else notice how much this is like Hinduism with its notion of reincarnation? That beings are separate from yet affected by their actions and experiences as they go through multiple cycles of "birth" and "death"?
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Post by Michelle on May 16, 2009 11:45:30 GMT -5
Second reaction. Yes, some things tied up. I loved that Ballard bargained for Madeleine to be "set free." Of course I thought he was talking about Caroline but the instant I saw Mellie I knew that it made total sense and I should have expected it.How about Boyd's "there's always a girl" line. Methinks there is more backstory there still to be told. "Save the girl." Pylea anyone? So Alpha's core personality was a bastard to begin with, while Caroline's was the animal lover, save the world type. He may have been a genius but he clearly couldn't see beyond his own prejudices to understand that she wouldn't necessarily want to do as he did. Besides, most of her imprints were also positive people, so combining them all wouldn't make her a bad person. I quite honestly expected the wedge/Caroline to die/be destroyed. Joss kills people off. I guess there was no value in killing Caroline since we hadn't become invested in her (and I STILL love that analysis Michelle directed us to about why it's been so hard to get invested). I thought maybe the basis of next year would be Echo figuring out who she is without Caroline. My thoughts are clearly not exactly organized. So pleased that he finally did something for Mellie's benefit, and not for Caroline. When he left Mellie in the pod in the last episode in favor of Echo, I was pretty much ready to give up on this show altogether.
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Post by Michelle on May 16, 2009 11:50:12 GMT -5
Doc Saunders wonders why Topher programmed her to hate him to much.Are they related? Is she is sister maybe? I NEED another season. Yes, I do. Not in the way I needed another Buffy season because I loved the people and would (do) miss them so much, but because it really has become so VERY intriguing. Like reading a good scifi or mystery book and only reading book 1 of a trilogy (or more). I wonder if it's her core personality (her soul) that dislikes Topher. She was the #1 Active, so she was being zapped and zapped and zapped by Topher. Perhaps she wanted a break and was tired of getting thrown into different situations, bounced around like a pin ball. Topher is someone on whom she could focus her hatred. I don't know, I'm just spit balling.
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Post by Michelle on May 16, 2009 12:02:07 GMT -5
Wait, wait, wait. Just read elsewhere the notion that Ballard totally traded himself for Madeleine and introduced himself as "nobody" because he's become a "contractor" --- that is, he's contracted himself to be an ACTIVE! Obviously. How did I miss that? What do you all think of that idea. I'm sure some of you saw it immediately. Now that you pointed it out, I can totally see that. In many ways, he already is an Active- singularly focused. And at the same time, he's already a Doll - an empty vessel with a flat personality. (Not criticizing the actor Tamoh, just the character Paul Ballard). I don't think Ballard would have as much of a problem being a doll because he believes in the existence of a soul, so even if his personality is on a shelf, he believes that his core remains. He's not really giving anything up. But then again, as others have pointed out, Ballard and Langton had a vibe of being equals, so Ballard could end up being a handler so that at the same time he could investigate Rossum and true purpose of the Dollhouse.
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Post by Michelle on May 16, 2009 12:08:59 GMT -5
I'd like to know why Topher programmed "Dr Saunders" the way he did, yes. Perhaps he was as attracted to Whiskey as everyone else ("number one girl" ) , and was trying to protect himself? I'd like to know what was up with Echo's putting her hand over Topher's heart. Does she have some remnant of Whiskey's upload, the one that Alpha uploaded? Was there something in that personality that was attracted to Topher? Taken together this might point to Topher being "undercover" guy, at least in some capacity. Even typing that I at first reject the premise because how could a "good guy" do what Topher does. On the other hand, if he believes/knows that the combined Dollhouses are planning something like world domination or the Apocalypse maybe he's convinced himself that the end justifies the means. However, he's doing what small things he can-- motivating Saunders to stay away from him (although that might also be self-protection because he knows something about her that he fears---like that she might be able to figure out what he's up to), allowing the dolls to retain some of their core personalities, programming Mellie and Echo to talk to Ballard. He's keeps protesting (too much) "that's not possible" and "this shouldn't be happening" but maybe that's just a cover. I mean, he's the obvious person to be doing all this stuff but I discounted him because: 1. what he does is just soooo reprehensible that I wouldn't consider him to be a "good" guy. 2. especially in the early eps I just really didn't like him at all --- even aside from his function -- it was sort of a visceral reaction 3. it was too obvious so it couldn't be him. Am beginning to think that the Topher actor is also quite good, like Victor. Joss seems to have a talent for spotting good actors. And he seems to like casting them so that they get to stretch: the good guy is then cast as a bad guy, etc. [Tudyk, Fillion, Zoe]. ED was cast perfectly in the role of Faith, I"m still waiting to see if she can play against type. So far she's competent, but not great, at subtle differences. Thinking out loud here: Amy Acker and Summer Glau both seem to be able, when necessary, come off as gorgeous sexpots but at other times to disappear into less extravagant, more mousy (?) identities. My sense is that ED is so extravagantly gorgeous that that works against her playing less than herself. But, maybe it really is just less acting ability. Julia Roberts manages it. She really needs to a have a role where she's not all made up in order to see whether she's more than all face and figure. Does that make sense? Makes perfect sense to me. ED is a knockout, and has reportedly had some plastic surgery to enhance what was given to her. We did see her not all made up when she was in a coma and just after she woke up in Season 4 of Buffy, but most of those scenes had her lying in a hospital bed with her eyes closed. There were a few scenes where she stole a girl's clothes that were definitely not Faith-type clothes, but I still don't know if she could show the range that Amy Acker, SMG and Summer Glau have shown.
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Post by Michelle on May 16, 2009 12:09:37 GMT -5
Wait, wait, wait. Just read elsewhere the notion that Ballard totally traded himself for Madeleine and introduced himself as "nobody" because he's become a "contractor" --- that is, he's contracted himself to be an ACTIVE! Obviously. How did I miss that? What do you all think of that idea. I'm sure some of you saw it immediately. Well, yeah. Adelle's Teapot of Surrendered Identity was right there on the coffee table. Heeeeeee. Good eye, Matthew!
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Post by Michelle on May 16, 2009 12:10:56 GMT -5
i was really, really curious about that particular scene. wasn't that the coworker that was most derisive of his idea that there was a dollhouse, and convinced he was going to be fired or suspended because of his 'wacky' ideas? it seemed to me like ballard hatched his plan when specifically noting which coworker had showed up. so i wondered whether he told the guy about the dollhouse specifically so that the guy would mistakenly believe that ballard was on his "dollhouse crusade" again (including that it had been ballard, not alpha, who called the threat in) and thus leave. i also wondered whether perhaps in the future the conversation will come back to the coworker in a new context, the way the other coworker suddenly started to believe ballard when he tried to trace november's true identity. I've been thinking that even if Mark Shepherd's character never believes Ballard, he's going to mention it to Bald Black FBI Lady and she's going to put it together and maybe start looking into things himself, particularly if Ballard disappears off the grid. That makes a LOT of sense. And it means Mark Shepherd will return for Season 2.
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Post by Michelle on May 16, 2009 12:14:23 GMT -5
I know this show is unlikely to be renewed, but I am hoping against hope that it will. It's nice to have a heroine whose superpowers are Compassion, Generosity and Integrity. If Fox does give it a 2nd season, I hope ED finds herself a good (or if she's already got one, better) acting coach. Particularly one well versed in Spolin Theater Games. (If you've ever watched the show "Whose Line is it Anyway?", then you know what these are even if you didn't know what they're called.) I'm thinking the ability to instantly and fiercely commit to shifting situation and character, to leap into the unknown, excited by the possibility of extending the self, would come in very handy in dealing with the demands the role of Echo places on Ms D. Dude, I like the way you think. I am wondering if Alan Tudyk could just hang out with her and give her some tips? James Marsters is another actor who always seems to elevate the performance of the others in any scene he's in--such a special gift that probably can't be taught.
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Post by Michelle on May 16, 2009 12:23:20 GMT -5
Ah, Dr Saunders has figured it out . . . "I think you gave me more computer skills than would be required by a medical doctor." Not waste the investment. "But why did you decide it was so important for me to hate you." Hmmmmm. Did he do that? Or is that her? Alpha still on the loose, so if we get another season by some miracle, we can have more wacked out Tudyk, which would be the best gift ever. Oh, Ballard. They bought you that easily? And he "saved" November!Mellie!Madeline, not Caroline!Echo. Oh, Echo putting her hand on Topher's heart. Yeah, Ballard, you kinda are nobody now. Ooooooooh!! And that final "Caroline"! Awesome, awesome, awesome ep! If Topher is Joss, well, one side of Joss anyway, then maybe the gesture of Echo laying her hand on his heart is the most feminine aspect of him, the one that suspects that there is more out there than what science can prove. Topher doesn't believe in the soul and claims that he's the smartest person in the room. Echo is a doll, the simplest of simple, but represents that there is more to her than what is readily apparent. Her last words are "Caroline." Caroline is her soul, if Ballard is to be believed. When Echo put her hand on Topher's heart, a Topher that is clearly shaken and no where near as cocky as he was prior, she was saying, "You will some day know what lies within." That's my interpretation, anyway.
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Post by Michelle on May 16, 2009 12:49:08 GMT -5
Agree. I was intrigued by this comment after the article: It looked like Echo was being set up as the mole with the theme developed in "Briar Rose" -- the sleeping beauty saving herself by creating a prince to come wake her -- topped off with her greeting Alpha as "my prince."
But that line turns out to have been spoken by an old Whiskey imprint, which points to Whiskey as the originator: she must have triggered Alpha's initial attack on her to get herself taken out of Active duty, and then used her new position to feed information to Ballard.
Joss would never make Topher, a misogynist creep in the Warren mold, into the hero who saves all the damsels in distress. The assorted self-styled "white knight" characters (Boyd, Ballard, even Dominic at times) all end up toeing the company line when push comes to shove, and any ultimate liberation is going to be due to events put in motion by one of the female characters (or, more likely, several of them working in concert).
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Post by rich on May 16, 2009 15:14:39 GMT -5
Ah, Dr Saunders has figured it out . . . "I think you gave me more computer skills than would be required by a medical doctor." Not waste the investment. "But why did you decide it was so important for me to hate you." Hmmmmm. Did he do that? Or is that her? Alpha still on the loose, so if we get another season by some miracle, we can have more wacked out Tudyk, which would be the best gift ever. Oh, Ballard. They bought you that easily? And he "saved" November!Mellie!Madeline, not Caroline!Echo. Oh, Echo putting her hand on Topher's heart. Yeah, Ballard, you kinda are nobody now. Ooooooooh!! And that final "Caroline"! Awesome, awesome, awesome ep! If Topher is Joss, well, one side of Joss anyway, then maybe the gesture of Echo laying her hand on his heart is the most feminine aspect of him, the one that suspects that there is more out there than what science can prove. Topher doesn't believe in the soul and claims that he's the smartest person in the room. Echo is a doll, the simplest of simple, but represents that there is more to her than what is readily apparent. Her last words are "Caroline." Caroline is her soul, if Ballard is to be believed. When Echo put her hand on Topher's heart, a Topher that is clearly shaken and no where near as cocky as he was prior, she was saying, "You will some day know what lies within." That's my interpretation, anyway. Oooh! I like the way you think too. It's a mutual admiration thinky society!!
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Post by spacecat1974 on May 18, 2009 23:33:51 GMT -5
It got renewed! With luck our questions will be answered next season. Too bad they will be shortening the episodes in favor of commercials.
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Post by spacecat1974 on Jun 19, 2009 23:30:48 GMT -5
I'll take shortened episodes over NO episodes any time!
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Post by Lola m on Jun 21, 2009 17:34:10 GMT -5
I've been thinking that even if Mark Shepherd's character never believes Ballard, he's going to mention it to Bald Black FBI Lady and she's going to put it together and maybe start looking into things himself, particularly if Ballard disappears off the grid. That makes a LOT of sense. And it means Mark Shepherd will return for Season 2. T'would be awesome, that would! But even more than him, I want to know if Reed Diamond will be back. 'Cuz, damn, I want to see him and that character again!!
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