REDEFINITION: You're Talking A Lot...

[Queen E]

Or not. No pressure.

[Onjel]

Whew! I'm glad there's no pressure cuz that was a doozy of an analysis and I have to re-read it so I can digest it more fully. By doozy, I mean it got me thinking but I can't make sense of my thoughts. Might help if I watched the episode again, huh? ;D

[Riff]

Excellent. Perceptive as always.

Things have fallen apart as they will over and over again on the show. We see a repeating pattern in AtS of stability and mutual trust dashed into sorrowful chaos, with the characters then trying to redefine themselves, their roles and their relationships with each other. (In fact that arguably happens so many times as to strain credibility.) The arc that makes up much of this season is really only the beginning of the dreadful rejections that will continue to appear in different forms.

You draw some fascinating binaries, but the Wes/Angel dyad is the most apparent, from this point until the eventual conclusion in Season 5. When the team reforms, under Wes’s leadership, there is another brief period of stability before an effective reversal with Wes cast in Angel’s role. Then he is the tortured outsider, trying to cut off the emotions he had so recently begun to allow himself to really feel. And he eventually returns under Angel’s leadership.

Over and over again, people are punished for opening their hearts and making themselves vulnerable, and the response is to close off and deny (especially empathic) emotions, to become a shell. Only Fred, in Season 4, seems to actually articulate this, and she refuses to take solace by closing herself down. What is often called “brooding” is really a kind of deadness, becoming a fool who plays it cool by making his world a little colder. But the alternative is so painful that brooding is actually an understandable course to take.

This arc is what really marks the change from the gentle show that AtS was to the uncomfortably dark (as opposed to fun dark) show it became. The gentleness returns periodically, but only as a prelude to another fall. “Redefine” also means to change the meaning of something.

Repeatedly the characters rail against fate and determinism, and repeatedly they have challenges to their free will, ultimately from the gods of Mutant Enemy, who they really are at the mercy of.

Of course, we can choose to allow them free will.

[Queen E]

May 31, 2010 14:02:16 GMT -5 Riff said:

Excellent. Perceptive as always.

Things have fallen apart as they will over and over again on the show. We see a repeating pattern in AtS of stability and mutual trust dashed into sorrowful chaos, with the characters then trying to redefine themselves, their roles and their relationships with each other. (In fact that arguably happens so many times as to strain credibility.) The arc that makes up much of this season is really only the beginning of the dreadful rejections that will continue to appear in different forms.

Stop, you're making me blush!

While it does at times verge into melodrama, because the stakes are so much higher (it being a fantasy world), the small things become big things. It's part of the reason that relationships formed in youth (whether mental or chronological) are often difficult to maintain. It's not that the world is necessarily out to get you and separate you from your loved ones as much as the changes you go through to become who you are. At its core, it's an ordinary outcome, but this being TV, it's dramatic and painful.

You draw some fascinating binaries, but the Wes/Angel dyad is the most apparent, from this point until the eventual conclusion in Season 5. When the team reforms, under Wes’s leadership, there is another brief period of stability before an effective reversal with Wes cast in Angel’s role. Then he is the tortured outsider, trying to cut off the emotions he had so recently begun to allow himself to really feel. And he eventually returns under Angel’s leadership.

Over and over again, people are punished for opening their hearts and making themselves vulnerable, and the response is to close off and deny (especially empathic) emotions, to become a shell. Only Fred, in Season 4, seems to actually articulate this, and she refuses to take solace by closing herself down. What is often called “brooding” is really a kind of deadness, becoming a fool who plays it cool by making his world a little colder. But the alternative is so painful that brooding is actually an understandable course to take.

Are you saying that they shouldn't make it bad, that they should perhaps take a sad song and make it better?

I think one of the biggest themes in Angel, as expressed by Darla in "The Prodigal," is that "who we are informs everything we shall become." I'm not entirely sure that they are punished for opening their hearts in so much that they pay the consequence for opening for the wrong reasons. In season 3, Wes makes a HUGE mistake, not just in not telling anyone about the prophecy, but allowing himself to be vulnerable to Justine! of all people. Wes in many ways is easy to figure out; throw a damsel in distress in his path and he will move heaven and earth. I wonder if it in fact is less about "saving the girl" and more about saving Wes from his own feelings of inferiority.

I'll get into that more as time goes on, but I have many controversial thoughts about Mr. Wyndham-Pryce.

This arc is what really marks the change from the gentle show that AtS was to the uncomfortably dark (as opposed to fun dark) show it became. The gentleness returns periodically, but only as a prelude to another fall. “Redefine” also means to change the meaning of something.

Repeatedly the characters rail against fate and determinism, and repeatedly they have challenges to their free will, ultimately from the gods of Mutant Enemy, who they really are at the mercy of.

Of course, we can choose to allow them free will.

Hee! True. And Mutant Enemy is at the mercy of the networks....so maybe that's why things got so dark!

Sorry it took me so long to respond! Thank your for commenting; I've missed these discussions!

[Riff]

Jun 17, 2010 14:40:16 GMT -5 Queen E said:

Stop, you're making me blush!

Well, I try.

While it does at times verge into melodrama, because the stakes are so much higher (it being a fantasy world), the small things become big things. It's part of the reason that relationships formed in youth (whether mental or chronological) are often difficult to maintain. It's not that the world is necessarily out to get you and separate you from your loved ones as much as the changes you go through to become who you are. At its core, it's an ordinary outcome, but this being TV, it's dramatic and painful.

I can certainly see it operating as a kind of shorthand. I think my point was more about the likelihood that these people would somehow manage to keep forming themselves back into a socially coherent unit. Still, I'm not the sort to use reality as a yardstick or rulebook for fiction, a different world entirely (one that in this case is populated with mythic creatures and where the laws of physics are there to be played with ).

Are you saying that they shouldn't make it bad, that they should perhaps take a sad song and make it better?

Of course. That's what I'd do. You should see my review of Vincent and the Doctor. ;D

I think one of the biggest themes in Angel, as expressed by Darla in "The Prodigal," is that "who we are informs everything we shall become." I'm not entirely sure that they are punished for opening their hearts in so much that they pay the consequence for opening for the wrong reasons. In season 3, Wes makes a HUGE mistake, not just in not telling anyone about the prophecy, but allowing himself to be vulnerable to Justine! of all people. Wes in many ways is easy to figure out; throw a damsel in distress in his path and he will move heaven and earth. I wonder if it in fact is less about "saving the girl" and more about saving Wes from his own feelings of inferiority.

I'll get into that more as time goes on, but I have many controversial thoughts about Mr. Wyndham-Pryce.

Ah, Season 3 Wes. I honestly feel for the poor man. Really, it's awful to watch, a train wreck happening slowly and inevitably before one’s eyes. It's one of those dreadful times in someone's life when free will goes out of the window. As soon as his hopes are dashed, he is absolutely vulnerable to almost everything. He doesn't tell anyone about the prophecy because he has no one to tell; he feels completely alone in the midst of his “family”. He's not making choices anymore, but is led by events. At this stage he is immature, but he is about to grow up very quickly and painfully.

I think I have some understanding of him, but I see a lot of complexity in the way he later develops. I'd agree with your assessment that his attitude to women (his attitude to women in general, actually) relates almost entirely to insecurity, but only with this early-stage Wes, not the darker but weirdly more positive person he becomes as a result of all this. Once he finally makes the choice to reject the exciting but rather grim sexuality of Lilah, what we are left with is something more like genuine chivalry (in the most benevolent and hopefully respectful sense, I mean). His insecurities are always part of who he is, of course, but his arc enables him to understand them and develop an ability to achieve some confidence in spite of them, even to laugh at them sometimes. Difficulties faced by him and Fred lead to something noticeably mature and respectful between them in Supersymmetry; they‘ve already both changed a lot. By the time we reach the end of Smile Time we have something set up for a good relationship. He isn’t in denial but has recognised and learnt to continually fight his demons; Fred has finally triumphed over the terrible trauma of Pylea. They have grown up as much as anyone does. In both cases, they have achieved this by living through suffering and learning hard lessons. As I’m sure you’re aware, I definitely don’t see what happens after this as a mere damsel-in-distress scenario, and while Wes’s insecurities are always present, I see his reaction as the result of something far more profound.

All IMO, of course.

Ha! What am I saying? I'll defend him to the hilt.

Hee! True. And Mutant Enemy is at the mercy of the networks....so maybe that's why things got so dark!

Sorry it took me so long to respond! Thank your for commenting; I've missed these discussions!

I’ve missed them, too. And you’re busy with one thing and another. Feeding back to feedback may not be your number one priority. You’re not too busy to IM, though.

As for the networks, you’re right. You simply don’t get that kind of upsetting stuff on public-service television. For example, when the next episode of DW airs in the US this Saturday, you’ll notice that nothing bad at all happens at the end. Ahem.

[Onjel]

Yes, yes, yes!!!! to all the comments about Wes and his growth and the eventual place he and Fred find themselves by Smile Time. Naturally, we couldn't have them have and enjoy their mature relationship, however. . ..

I can't add to your wonderful thoughts, guys. But, I can let you know how much I enjoyed reading them and gaining insight from them.