|
Post by Lola m on Mar 23, 2010 21:06:56 GMT -5
So this silly ship was what broke the awesome statue. darnit. I know! Bummer! Very very very intriguing twist, that, wasn't it? And gives me a different perspective on Dogen.
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Mar 23, 2010 21:09:23 GMT -5
Wine is hell/dark and the island is keeping the darkness where it belongs.
The smokey thing is the darkness that will spread if let off the island?
To know the difference between right and wrong is your choice and is meaningless if Jacob has to tell them what to do.
Intermediary. Richard. Can't bring back Isabella or absolve him of his sins.
Richard asked to live forever....so he won't go to hell.
Hawaii pretty.
Present day - and he finds the necklace after all this time - which means he is going to take Smokey up on his offer.
What was that offer exactly?
Red-shirted Hurley. Doesn't mean anything, I'm sure.
"Your wife sent me." Of course, because Hurley sees dead people.
"Sometimes it takes people a while." A while to what - see the dead people?
"Stop the man in black from leaving the island." Or we all go to hell.
Hawaii pretty.
Yeah.. I kinda knew the man in black was going to smash the wine bottle.
V!
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Mar 23, 2010 21:12:44 GMT -5
Are you the devil? No. Excellent straightforward conversation, for once! Island is a cork keeping the "evil" (i.e. Smokey?) in. "It's all meaningless if I have to force them." "I don't want to step in, but you can." "Then I never want to die. I want to live forever." "Now, that, I can do." HA! Excellent! Hmmmmm. Smokey's offer still stands, forever. So now that he's lost faith in Jacob, he's gonna go to Smokey!FLocke and ask to be back with his wife, eh? "What offer, dude?" HIS WIFE SENT HURLEY!!! Of course, of course, of course!!!! Oh, excellent!! Excellent! Oh, that little moment with him and his wife? So sweet! **gets a little sniffly** Now the dead are saying to stop the man in black or they'll all go to hell. Now they get all chatty! ;D Repeating the conversation about wanting to kill Jacob so he can leave . . . someone else will take Jacob's place . . . Heh! Not chatty enough. So, Hurley is an intermediary of sorts. Cool.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Mar 23, 2010 21:12:58 GMT -5
Richard saying "If you don't, he will" and that's the job offer. "Can't do that" I guess she's been dead a little too long. "absolve me of my sins so I don't go to hell" "never want to die, then, I want to live forever" Yep, hell is answered prayers, at times. "Told me to give you this" the white rock from the cave. "my offer still stands" "I have something for you, you must have dropped it" Isabella's cross. He's going to bury it? so he did. And we are back in the current day, as Richard approaches the same clearing.the same stones. 137 years later, and digging up the cross. Poor poor lost Richard.. Hugo was talking with Isabella earlier. Yep. Oh god, I'm getting all.. verklempt and I'm not even joking Seriously! And now, of course, I'm seeing why the separation of Sun and Jin has been so crucial to this season - mirroring Richard and his Isabella. I took it as a weird stylistic thing, but I could be wrong. ;D It really is, especially in those long panoramic shots. You know, the ones with not so much of the Damnedness showing. Heee! Totally. Maybe Smokey gets all mellow and affectionate when he's drunk. **tries to picture that** Why pop the cork when you can smash the bottle . . .
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Mar 23, 2010 21:15:52 GMT -5
Wine is hell/dark and the island is keeping the darkness where it belongs. The smokey thing is the darkness that will spread if let off the island? I wonder if smokey is the darkness to be kept in, or just . . . like the voice of the darkness, the representative for it? So very very pretty. And so much less doom-y than the Island. V!
|
|
|
Post by RAKSHA on Mar 23, 2010 21:45:35 GMT -5
Well, now we know for sure that Jacob's purpose, and the purpose of the Island, is to contain Smokey, and keep him from spreading out and contaminating/destroying the rest of the world.
Why does the Island need Jacob?
Why does Jacob want to bring humans to the island, evidently many of them throughout who-knows-how-long, when Smokey can use them to kill him? Wouldn't it be better to keep the potential Jacob-killers away from the Island, so that Jacob and the Island can continue to contain Smokey with no interference?
Who brought back Isabella when she was speaking through Hurley - Jacob? Or was she somehow able to come back on her own? And if so, why didn't she return earlier? Also, how the heck do we tell if the various dead people who have appeared on the Island and elsewhere are agents of Smokey, Jacob, or just resurgent ghosts?
And could Jacob be lying about the Island's purpose as a jail for Darkness Incarnate? So far, I would say that Smokey is indeed more evil than Jacob; but Jacob evidently brought the Black Rock to the Island to snag Richard, and is thus responsible for the deaths of the other slaves....
I don't think the priest who refused to grand Ricardo absolution was an accurate portrayal of 19th century Catholicism; but I'm not a Catholic...
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Mar 24, 2010 10:31:42 GMT -5
OMG, how did I miss the Hanso name?!Did the statue get broken then, by the storm/boat? I missed that! Hanso was the boss of the guy who 'bought' Richard as slave material. Not sure if the statue got broken, but I assumed it did. And didn't that captain/slave buyer have a familiar name too? Whitfield or something?
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Mar 24, 2010 10:36:29 GMT -5
Yeah, but not by simply removing the cork even (which would be back enough, as evil would be released) -- evil just destroys the entire bottle to get "free." Cracked right open and not able to be repaired. Sounds about right.
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Mar 24, 2010 10:39:44 GMT -5
So this silly ship was what broke the awesome statue. darnit. I know! Bummer! Very very very intriguing twist, that, wasn't it? And gives me a different perspective on Dogen. It seems to cut both ways and acknowledges that the voices of both good and evil are very seductive (hopefully for different reasons. Evil offers you your heart's desire, even it if it's not a good thing and it won't really be fulfilled the way you expect it to be. Good tells you the truth and the truth is actually seductive in its own right.) So the instructions for killing either are "don't let him start to talk." (Suggestion: next time you send an assassin -- give him ear plugs.)
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Mar 24, 2010 10:42:04 GMT -5
Wine is hell/dark and the island is keeping the darkness where it belongs. The smokey thing is the darkness that will spread if let off the island? To know the difference between right and wrong is your choice and is meaningless if Jacob has to tell them what to do. So now we have good, evil AND free will. Plus baptism into eternal life (good catch, Karen).
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Mar 24, 2010 10:47:03 GMT -5
I don't think the priest who refused to grand Ricardo absolution was an accurate portrayal of 19th century Catholicism; but I'm not a Catholic...I"m not Catholic either, but the major complaint the Protestants have historically made about the Catholics is that they believe there is an element of "earning" absolution through penitence (works) rather than the Protestant doctrine of Justification by Faith (and nothing else). So that priest was undoubtedly not a great representative of the essence of true Catholicism, but he did still embody what is thought (by many) to be at least some elements of Catholic doctrine. Although maybe instead of straight to hell Richard would have gone to Purgatory (which is a theological construct that I know nothing about -- still I think the island would qualify.)
|
|
|
Post by Laura yeah its me on Mar 24, 2010 14:08:44 GMT -5
I don't think the priest who refused to grand Ricardo absolution was an accurate portrayal of 19th century Catholicism; but I'm not a Catholic...I"m not Catholic either, but the major complaint the Protestants have historically made about the Catholics is that they believe there is an element of "earning" absolution through penitence (works) rather than the Protestant doctrine of Justification by Faith (and nothing else). So that priest was undoubtedly not a great representative of the essence of true Catholicism, but he did still embody what is thought (by many) to be at least some elements of Catholic doctrine. Although maybe instead of straight to hell Richard would have gone to Purgatory (which is a theological construct that I know nothing about -- still I think the island would qualify.) I AM Roman Catholic, and I was highly irritated at that scene. While a priest is permitted to withhold absolution if he believes that the person confessing is not truly repentent for his actions (for instance, is just going to confession because he told someone he would, but he's not sorry for what he did), at NO time has a priest been permitted to withhold absolution because someone "doesn't have time to do penance." It's not the "doing" that's important, though certainly one way of expressing repentance is by doing penance. But there were many deathbed absolutions throughout the centuries, and never was a penitent sinner denied the opportunity to be absolved just because "you're going to die tomorrow."
That said, I believe that (or at least I want to believe!) that scene was intended to show that that particular priest was corrupt, and not a "true" priest (revisiting some of the Mr. Eko scenes?).
I was also highly irritated that the writers had characters in 1867 referring to the "New World." Kinda wasn't "New" at that point anymore! (Almost four centuries after Columbus!)
For the most part, while this season has been a rollercoaster, I can't help feeling majorly cheated by Cuse, Lindelof and everyone else involved with the series this year. We were promised answers. We keep getting more questions, and the answers that we do get are tautologies. Who's Smokey? Why, he's the Man in Black! Okay, but who's the Man in Black? Why, he's Smokey! NOT an answer!
(And BTW, I really resent their usurping the "Man in Black" -- to me, the phrase the "Man in Black" = the Dread Pirate Roberts/Westley.)
Okay, rant over. Happy Holidays to everyone!
Laura[/color]
|
|
|
Post by leftylady on Mar 24, 2010 17:28:10 GMT -5
I"m not Catholic either, but the major complaint the Protestants have historically made about the Catholics is that they believe there is an element of "earning" absolution through penitence (works) rather than the Protestant doctrine of Justification by Faith (and nothing else). So that priest was undoubtedly not a great representative of the essence of true Catholicism, but he did still embody what is thought (by many) to be at least some elements of Catholic doctrine. Although maybe instead of straight to hell Richard would have gone to Purgatory (which is a theological construct that I know nothing about -- still I think the island would qualify.) I AM Roman Catholic, and I was highly irritated at that scene. While a priest is permitted to withhold absolution if he believes that the person confessing is not truly repentent for his actions (for instance, is just going to confession because he told someone he would, but he's not sorry for what he did), at NO time has a priest been permitted to withhold absolution because someone "doesn't have time to do penance." It's not the "doing" that's important, though certainly one way of expressing repentance is by doing penance. But there were many deathbed absolutions throughout the centuries, and never was a penitent sinner denied the opportunity to be absolved just because "you're going to die tomorrow."
That said, I believe that (or at least I want to believe!) that scene was intended to show that that particular priest was corrupt, and not a "true" priest (revisiting some of the Mr. Eko scenes?).
I was also highly irritated that the writers had characters in 1867 referring to the "New World." Kinda wasn't "New" at that point anymore! (Almost four centuries after Columbus!)
For the most part, while this season has been a rollercoaster, I can't help feeling majorly cheated by Cuse, Lindelof and everyone else involved with the series this year. We were promised answers. We keep getting more questions, and the answers that we do get are tautologies. Who's Smokey? Why, he's the Man in Black! Okay, but who's the Man in Black? Why, he's Smokey! NOT an answer!
(And BTW, I really resent their usurping the "Man in Black" -- to me, the phrase the "Man in Black" = the Dread Pirate Roberts/Westley.)
Okay, rant over. Happy Holidays to everyone!
Laura[/color][/quote] I haven't read most of the posts but wanted to chime in on the strange behaviour of the priest. That was definitely no rite of confession by any means. But then again would a priest sell someone into servitude?? And "New World" in the 19th century? Pretty well carved out by countries. Not to mention.... why learn English to go to the New World? There were enough Spanish colonies out there at the time to emigrate to. I don;t remember what the original tale of the Black Rock/Hanso was, but I have in the back of my mind the idea that it had a Portuguese crew, etc. (I'm probably wrong.) But I suppose if Ricardo /Isabela (one "L" in Spanish if you don;t go for the more common Isabel) spoke Portuguese then Hurley couldn;t communicate as well for them. Loved the parallels between Dogan's instructions and MIB's. Also - see Maureen Ryan's comments on the episode where she sees Buffy Big Bad and other parallels. She calls the dagger "stabby, the sword". 'I'd call it Lost's version of Mr. Pointy ;D Jacob dunking Ricard - baptism or the first temple pool? And Richard, be careful what you wish for...you just might get it. enough for now. leftylady
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Mar 24, 2010 18:16:21 GMT -5
I"m not Catholic either, but the major complaint the Protestants have historically made about the Catholics is that they believe there is an element of "earning" absolution through penitence (works) rather than the Protestant doctrine of Justification by Faith (and nothing else). So that priest was undoubtedly not a great representative of the essence of true Catholicism, but he did still embody what is thought (by many) to be at least some elements of Catholic doctrine. Although maybe instead of straight to hell Richard would have gone to Purgatory (which is a theological construct that I know nothing about -- still I think the island would qualify.) I AM Roman Catholic, and I was highly irritated at that scene. While a priest is permitted to withhold absolution if he believes that the person confessing is not truly repentent for his actions (for instance, is just going to confession because he told someone he would, but he's not sorry for what he did), at NO time has a priest been permitted to withhold absolution because someone "doesn't have time to do penance." It's not the "doing" that's important, though certainly one way of expressing repentance is by doing penance. But there were many deathbed absolutions throughout the centuries, and never was a penitent sinner denied the opportunity to be absolved just because "you're going to die tomorrow."
That said, I believe that (or at least I want to believe!) that scene was intended to show that that particular priest was corrupt, and not a "true" priest (revisiting some of the Mr. Eko scenes?).
I was also highly irritated that the writers had characters in 1867 referring to the "New World." Kinda wasn't "New" at that point anymore! (Almost four centuries after Columbus!)
For the most part, while this season has been a rollercoaster, I can't help feeling majorly cheated by Cuse, Lindelof and everyone else involved with the series this year. We were promised answers. We keep getting more questions, and the answers that we do get are tautologies. Who's Smokey? Why, he's the Man in Black! Okay, but who's the Man in Black? Why, he's Smokey! NOT an answer!
(And BTW, I really resent their usurping the "Man in Black" -- to me, the phrase the "Man in Black" = the Dread Pirate Roberts/Westley.)
Okay, rant over. Happy Holidays to everyone!
Laura[/color][/quote] Oh, that's funny. I was sure you were going to say "Man in Black" = Johnny Cash. Which is, of course, the TRUE correct answer.
|
|
|
Post by RAKSHA on Mar 24, 2010 19:37:00 GMT -5
One reason I liked this episode - and I did like most of it - was that the flashback was a long, linear narrative rather than inter-cut between present-day Island scenes, which I have always found distracting.
I loved the Richard/Jacob interaction; because Richard is a character I find far more compelling than the MIB (except MIB-as-Smokey-or-Locke). But I still wonder about Jacob - is he the original jailer of Darkness, or the latest in a long line? And what gives him the moral right to play God with the lives of the people he calls to the island? Is he a divine agent himself?
I don't think the writers mean to answer even half of the questions that they're creating, much less the leftover questions...
|
|