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Post by Kerrie on Feb 1, 2006 0:52:26 GMT -5
Depression can produce melancholia or it can make one angry and hostile. Perhaps Buffy was leaning toward the hostile end of depression. She could work out her intense feelings of anger on Spike through rough sex and he'd take it all. He was strong enough to keep up with her rages without getting seriously hurt himself and Buffy would know that. Being yanked out of heaven by the ones you loved the most would be devastating to anyone and certainly could produce depression. Under all her angst though, was an intrinsically strong person who finally, slowly found her way back to a sense of normality - as normal as her life could ever be. Coming out of a depression by yourself is difficult, very difficult. But if Buffy's depression was induced by her return from the dead, then more time spent among the living again would lessen her trauma as she caught hold of the living world and let go of her experience of heaven. Interacting with Spike, who was the only person she could tell about being in heaven, slowly started her on the road to life again. Ironic that she should begin interacting with the living again by talking to someone dead. But maybe that was actually a good progression. She may have thought he would understand better than anyone who hadn't died. And, of course, he was seriously hot. Alex Wow Alex! How wonderful to "see" you again. I have not seen a post of yours in months, possibly years. As usual you have hit the nail right on the head: It was ironic that it was a dead person that brought Buffy back to the living. One of my all time favourite quotes from Spike expresses the exact senitment that only through living can you bring yourself back from the dead/depression (in OMWF). Unfortunately, at the moment, the only song I can hear is Monty Python's "Always Look on the Bright side of Life" (in "The Life of Brian"). My brain can be so perverse. On the matter of the irony of Spike the dead vampire bringing Buffy back to life, I have wondered at various times whehter this was, in and of itself, one of JW's objections to Spuffy. He seemed to have the same problems with Bangel. A dead person has no place with a living person. I am not sure why exactly he would have this objection. Obviously, he had hinted in the Bangel relationship that the immortality and infertility issues were important. But, I wondered whether it was something else: maybe they were too different and Spike couldn't lead Buffy far enough along the path towards life. It seemed that Spike seemed to be more interested in Buffy forming a relationship with himself than resuming her relationships with the Scoobies. I know it is silly, but it seems in fantasy fiction that the long-lived elves have the same problems with forming relationships with short-lived humans except under exceptional circumstances where they form relationships with one or two: according to the elves human lives are too fleeting and not worth pursueing. Oh well, that is my ramble!
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Post by LadyDi on Feb 1, 2006 1:30:43 GMT -5
Since I'm an American (and we're selfishly hogging most of the planet's resources while our criminally insane and buffoonish Prez denies anything's actually wrong with that), I can understand this very well. But here's the thing, if ME wanted to show Willow hooked on the feelings magick gave her (as Buffy was hooked on the feelings Spike gave her), they didn't make a very good show of it. Instead, they were simply (and simplistically) hooked on the thing/person. Personally, I chalk this up to a lack of communication btwn Joss and his minions. As for depression, I've been a sufferer for some time now. Ironically, it came to a head after Chosen. I'm still embarassed by the depths of dispair I was thrown into. Believing as I did at the time that Buffy still didn't love Spike after everything they'd been thru and everything he'd done to atone for the AR just about killed me. Fortunately, I was able to get help thru the Health Center at Cal Poly (where I was a student at the time). While it was difficult for me to talk about what was really going on, I was able to talk about some other stuff I needed to deal with, and get the medication I needed to function. While I'm still not entirely over it, and I no longer have access to the Health Center, I'm glad I went to get help. It made sense for ME to explore depression, as it effects women about twice as much as men, but Buffy never sought treatment. All she did was wallow (very unattractive), until she had to climb out of her grave again, and then it all just 'magically' went away. There was so much she could've done and didn't even try, and what was presented by ME as this huge, crushing burden didn't have to be. Interesting aside...physical activity is recognized as a good way to combat depression. I think btwn rough sex with Spike and the demands of her slaying, she'd have been riding the endorphine high of all time. Lady Di,
Sweetie, while your sentiment in regards to our president is well understood and sypathized with by many here, let's refrain from any further comments along this line in describing the topic at hand. While the analogy may be a "good one descriptively," it does draw politics into a discussion that has nothing to do with politics as portrayed in the Buffyverse. While we are not editing out the original statement, please be aware this in not a path we want to go down, due to potential complaints that would be rightfully pointing out that it disobeys some of our rules. If anyone wishes to discuss this policy or this reminder, please IM me or one of our technopagans for the discourse. Thanks!
VladVlad, You are entirely correct. It was a lack of discretion on my part that caused a flap over on the Spikecentricity thread, and it wouldn't do to start one over here as well. What can I say, the Queen of Tact I am not. I have very strong feelings about Bush/Cheney and they frequently get the better of me. Kerrie, At least you get my point about the magic/electricity connection, tho' it might not be a perfect anology. They're both just types of force, and neither is inherently good or bad. The user's intent is what matters (IMO). When I was being treated for depression, the nurse- practioner recommended exercise as a treatment, and so did/does Prevention magazine. My understanding is that exercise can reduce or even replace the need for medication. Buffy had a right to feel angry and depressed. Having to be ok for her friends (so they could be ok with themselves) must have been exhausting. So wouldn't it be a huge relief to have someone in her life who didn't expect/demand that she be ok when she wasn't? Seems more like a plus than a negative to me.
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Post by LadyDi on Feb 1, 2006 2:11:56 GMT -5
Forgot to thank those of you who have played along. Since initial results are promising, I may extend the experiment to other eps. What do you think: Smashed or Seeing Red for thoughts on Buffy and Spike's all too literal battle of the sexes? Either. "Smashed" is the better episode , but "Seeing Red" allows for greater breadth of discussion. As they say in the beer ads: "its all good!". Think I'll go for Seeing Red on this; will try to come up with something else for Smashed.
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Post by Kerrie on Feb 2, 2006 0:44:54 GMT -5
[ Kerrie, At least you get my point about the magic/electricity connection, tho' it might not be a perfect anology. They're both just types of force, and neither is inherently good or bad. The user's intent is what matters (IMO). When I was being treated for depression, the nurse- practioner recommended exercise as a treatment, and so did/does Prevention magazine. My understanding is that exercise can reduce or even replace the need for medication. Buffy had a right to feel angry and depressed. Having to be ok for her friends (so they could be ok with themselves) must have been exhausting. So wouldn't it be a huge relief to have someone in her life who didn't expect/demand that she be ok when she wasn't? Seems more like a plus than a negative to me. You are quite right: exercise is a recommended method of treating depression for the reasons you gave in the original post. I suspect that I tend to undervalue exercise because it did not work for me. As I had studied psychology I was very disappointed when it did not work. It took me a long time to figure out why it might not have worked. On the basis of my studies I think it does not work for every person because: hypothesis 1) emotions are created by a mixture of physiology and thoughts. There is not one physiological response for each emotion: anger and joy have the same physiological response the difference comes from the interpretation. Consequently, a depressed person who exercises does not interperet the adrenalin rush from exercise as happiness, but as distress, and/or hypothesis 2) anti depressants provide the physiological components of happiness, but some people who take anti-depressants commit suicide. It is believed that for these people the anti-depressants give them the energy to form and enact suicide plans. However, it is possible that the irrational thinking that underlies depression allows some people to misinterpret their new positive feelings as extreme distress as well as give them the energy to formulate and execute suicide plans. Please understand that these are my own hypotheses for understanding why exercise does not always make me feel better and when I am depressed why exercise makes me feel significantly worse. Anyone else is free to disagree or correct or elaborate. I have not looked much at the topic except for the general publications which say "exercise alleviates depression". In terms of Spike being a plus because he allowed Buffy to be herself rather than pretend to be happy, I tend to agree, reluctantly, with Spring on this. By being so supportive, Spike inadvertantly delayed Buffy from confronting her friends and resolving the issue. I personally would have acted like Buffy, but then I suffer from depression too. (I think it was Spring who said this, and she definitely did say it in a very different way so it is possible that I misinterpreted her.)
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Post by Lola m on Jul 23, 2006 18:57:37 GMT -5
We continue our countdown of the 2006 Sizzlin’ Episode Festival! Week four brings us the 7th most requested Buffy episode – Dead Things.
Do you even like me? Sometimes. You bunch of little boys, playing at being men! Listen! We have two problems. The body, and the Slayer. Well, what if there was a way that we could take care of them both ... with one big stone. You don't want to be here with me. You didn't want to come back. I know that. You were happier where you were. You want to go away again. Dawn . . . Then go! You're not really here anyway. Come on, that's it, put it on me. Put it all on me. You don't ... have a soul! There is nothing good or clean in you. You are dead inside! Tell me that I'm wrong, please... Please don't forgive me, please...
Go ahead! Chat, squee, think deep or shallow thoughts, post wild-ass theories, write fic or poems in homage, discuss arcane points of interest, post pretty pictures, and just generally wibble on about this ep. We eagerly await whatever you’ve got to say or show!
Need help remembering lines and so on? Look here.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 25, 2006 7:29:38 GMT -5
So, I love love love the scene when Buffy goes to visit Spike at his crypt and they each stand on other sides of the door - touching with the door between them.
But I particularly love the song lyrics that are playing during it.
"When we die, we go into the arms of those that remember us... We are home now, out of our heads, out of our minds Out of this world, out of our time...
Are you drowning or waving? I just want you to save me Should we try to get along? Just try to get along...
So we move, we change by the speed of the choices that we make And the barriers are all self-made That's so retrograde..."
(Not the full song, obviously, but the main lyrics during the scene.)
To me, it seems picked to represent each of them. Not Buffy's feelings or Spike's feelings, but both of theirs. Showing that they are much more alike than not.
What do you think?
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 25, 2006 22:21:16 GMT -5
So, I love love love the scene when Buffy goes to visit Spike at his crypt and they each stand on other sides of the door - touching with the door between them. But I particularly love the song lyrics that are playing during it. "When we die, we go into the arms of those that remember us... We are home now, out of our heads, out of our minds Out of this world, out of our time... Are you drowning or waving? I just want you to save me Should we try to get along? Just try to get along... So we move, we change by the speed of the choices that we make And the barriers are all self-made That's so retrograde..." (Not the full song, obviously, but the main lyrics during the scene.) To me, it seems picked to represent each of them. Not Buffy's feelings or Spike's feelings, but both of theirs. Showing that they are much more alike than not. What do you think? I put this answer on the main thread, but I will also put it here: I think you are right on target, Lola. The song, the whole scene - the whole episode, underneath it all emphasizes how mutual their feelings are for each other - but it also emphasizes how differently they interpret them and deal with them. Spike is completely open to experiencing and "going with" his feelings; Buffy is completely closed and in denial - we see how conflicted she is, in her dreams - how much reality contrasts with how she wants to see herself and her world. Spike can't understand why Buffy won't go with her feelings and refuses to accept them, and he can't understand, not really, why Buffy is so conflicted (though, of course, it makes perfect sense for Buffy to be conflicted about her relationship with Spike).
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Post by Onjel on Jul 27, 2006 9:15:56 GMT -5
Do you trust me? Then answer these questions for the win! What special thing did Katrina do that was the main reason Warren was attracted to her?
What is the name of the band playing at The Bronze while Willow and Anya are seen dancing? What song are they playing?
In the episode, Willow tells Tara she's been "off magicks" for a period of time. For how long had Willow been steering clear of using magic when she runs into Tara?
Dawn’s best bud is Janice, and Dawn tells Buffy she's going to be staying at Janice's in this episode. What is Janice’s last name?
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Post by Lola m on Jul 27, 2006 9:55:30 GMT -5
<snippy ring a ding ding> Do you trust me? Then answer these questions for the win! What special thing did Katrina do that was the main reason Warren was attracted to her? Hmmmmmm. Um. She was funny and cool and unpredictable and always giving him a hard time?
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Post by Lola m on Jul 27, 2006 9:57:40 GMT -5
So, what if the scene in the alley between Buffy and Spike had gone differently?
Like, how would things have changed if he had convinced her not to go in to confess to the cops?
Or, alternately, what if he'd been a bit late and missed her. What if she'd gone in and started confessing before the call came in that tipped her off with Katrina's name and thus made her think of Warren?
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Post by Onjel on Jul 27, 2006 13:45:59 GMT -5
<snippy ring a ding ding> Do you trust me? Then answer these questions for the win! What special thing did Katrina do that was the main reason Warren was attracted to her? Hmmmmmm. Um. She was funny and cool and unpredictable and always giving him a hard time? That, too. But there's something else that she did that was really special. Keep thinking and thanks for playing! ;d
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Post by Michelle on Jul 27, 2006 20:18:32 GMT -5
Katrina: “Well what did you expect, you’d just waltz in here and sweep me off my feet with your cheesy lines and fancy suit?” Mirroring what Buffy said to Spike “Wrecked”. “What did you expect, we were going to read the paper and play footsie under the rubble?” Warren is back to making a robot of sorts when he uses the cerebral dampener on Katrina. Warren commands Katrina: “Tell me you love me” – just what Buffy will be saying to Spike in “As You Were.” The parallels of these lines indicates that both Buffy & Spike are like Warren, both make relationship mistakes. Love can't be demanded from another person; it must be given freely or it isn't love at all. Until Spike made a reference to their tryst in “Beneath Me,” I honestly assumed that the scene in the balcony was meant to be seen as taking place in Buffy’s head. (A place that had once been populated with people is suddenly deserted. The upbeat swing music is inexplicably muted, replaced by the more dramatic, haunting music.) But, guess not. Speaking of haunting, Alone With My Pride made a music mix of Spike’s lines during the balcony scene called “Don’t Close Your Eyes.” I highly recommend it! You can download it here. After the effects of the cerebral dampener wears off, Katrina tells the Troika that what they were doing was rape and when she ries to leave, Warren stops her by hitting her with a bottle. Warren depersonalizes her as soon as she’s dead (“We have to get rid of it”) and Jonathan replies, “She’s—It’s too big” when Warren asks him to teleport her out of this plane. Compare Buffy’s reactions to Spike’s for similarities. Buffy thinks she has killed Katrina: “She’s dead. I killed her. What happened? What did I do?” In “Seeing Red,” Spike has attempted to rape Buffy. Clem visits him in his crypt and Spike asks, “What have I done? Why didn't I do it? What has she done to me? Why do I feel this way?” In this episode, Warren quickly devolves from an almost-rapist to an actual murderer. In “Seeing Red,” Spike is the murderer who becomes the almost-rapist. The choices they both make as a result are what decide their fate. Warren, as far as we can tell up until he is killed by Willow, can not be redeemed. He never expresses regret for what he did, and is never shown to doubt his own actions. Spike, on the other hand, both figuratively and literally searches (for) his soul.
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Post by leftylady on Jul 28, 2006 17:38:06 GMT -5
Thanks,Fotada, for mentioning the paralleling of Spike and Warren in this episosode. It's amazing how much the producers of BtVS has used mirroring, inversions, contrasts, and repetitions in the writing. It really is everywhere. And Lola's opening with lines from the Alley Scene brought to mind a analysis I had read years ago. It was an exercise of taking the Alley dialogue and inverting the speakers. And suddenly, with Buffy and Spike transposed, it became clearly a reflection of their final Hellmouth scene in "Chosen". If anyone wants to read the full anlysis, here it is: www.teaattheford.net/viewpost.php?id=115What depth you can find in the Whedonverse!
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Post by Michelle on Jul 28, 2006 18:52:16 GMT -5
Thanks,Fotada, for mentioning the paralleling of Spike and Warren in this episosode. It's amazing how much the producers of BtVS has used mirroring, inversions, contrasts, and repetitions in the writing. It really is everywhere. And Lola's opening with lines from the Alley Scene brought to mind a analysis I had read years ago. It was an exercise of taking the Alley dialogue and inverting the speakers. And suddenly, with Buffy and Spike transposed, it became clearly a reflection of their final Hellmouth scene in "Chosen". If anyone wants to read the full anlysis, here it is: www.teaattheford.net/viewpost.php?id=115What depth you can find in the Whedonverse! Thanks for reading my fragmented thoughts! I'm afraid I don't communicate my thoughts ver ywell. And thank you very much for the referral to Tea at the Ford. Here's a quote from there comparing the alley scene in "Dead Things" to the Hellmouth scene in "Chosen" which I found really interesting: "Spike tells Buffy he loves her to explain why he can't let her go into the station. She denies it not just because she doesn't believe it, but because she doesn't want his love.
Buffy doesn't tell Spike she loves him to persuade him to leave with her, nor to explain why she wants him to leave; she tells him once she realises that he can't be persuaded. It may be his decision to stay that prompts her realization that she loves him. Spike denies it not because he doesn't want her love, but because that isn't his motivation for his action. And to release her, let her go - because he wants HER to go.
In fact, Spike tells Buffy he loves her (in Dead Things) to explain why he can't let her throw her life away. He tells her she doesn't love him (in Chosen) in order to push her not to throw her life away - by staying with him as he dies." --posted by Klytaimnestra So yes, leftylady-- I agree, there's a lot of depth in the Whedonverse.
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Post by Lola m on Aug 2, 2006 23:20:06 GMT -5
<snippedy do dah> Katrina: “Well what did you expect, you’d just waltz in here and sweep me off my feet with your cheesy lines and fancy suit?” Mirroring what Buffy said to Spike “Wrecked”. “What did you expect, we were going to read the paper and play footsie under the rubble?” Warren is back to making a robot of sorts when he uses the cerebral dampener on Katrina. Warren commands Katrina: “Tell me you love me” – just what Buffy will be saying to Spike in “As You Were.” The parallels of these lines indicates that both Buffy & Spike are like Warren, both make relationship mistakes. Love can't be demanded from another person; it must be given freely or it isn't love at all. Until Spike made a reference to their tryst in “Beneath Me,” I honestly assumed that the scene in the balcony was meant to be seen as taking place in Buffy’s head. (A place that had once been populated with people is suddenly deserted. The upbeat swing music is inexplicably muted, replaced by the more dramatic, haunting music.) But, guess not. Speaking of haunting, Alone With My Pride made a music mix of Spike’s lines during the balcony scene called “Don’t Close Your Eyes.” I highly recommend it! You can download it here. After the effects of the cerebral dampener wears off, Katrina tells the Troika that what they were doing was rape and when she ries to leave, Warren stops her by hitting her with a bottle. Warren depersonalizes her as soon as she’s dead (“We have to get rid of it”) and Jonathan replies, “She’s—It’s too big” when Warren asks him to teleport her out of this plane. Compare Buffy’s reactions to Spike’s for similarities. Buffy thinks she has killed Katrina: “She’s dead. I killed her. What happened? What did I do?” In “Seeing Red,” Spike has attempted to rape Buffy. Clem visits him in his crypt and Spike asks, “What have I done? Why didn't I do it? What has she done to me? Why do I feel this way?” In this episode, Warren quickly devolves from an almost-rapist to an actual murderer. In “Seeing Red,” Spike is the murderer who becomes the almost-rapist. The choices they both make as a result are what decide their fate. Warren, as far as we can tell up until he is killed by Willow, can not be redeemed. He never expresses regret for what he did, and is never shown to doubt his own actions. Spike, on the other hand, both figuratively and literally searches (for) his soul. Whoa! Really nice comparisons here. "Warren quickly devolves from an almost-rapist to an actual murderer. In “Seeing Red,” Spike is the murderer who becomes the almost-rapist." Very very intriguing! Like Warren and Spike are passing each other; heading in opposite directions . . . . I also find it interesting to compare what the Troika attempts to do to Katrina and what Amy was planning on doing to Bree in "Smashed". Another way that Willow is also compared to or mirrors Warren. Willow chooses not to take magical advantage - at least in this instance - although I tend to think more because of her own emotions at the moment, not because she's necessarily thinking it is unfair to Bree. And unlike her mental manipulation of Tara.
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