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Post by William the Bloody on Jun 6, 2003 3:59:10 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Rob on Jun 15, 2003 22:39:04 GMT -5
This one is my favorite, for obvious reasons. Xander takes his first major step toward manhood in this ep, and Nick Brendon shows what he can do when given the opportunity.
I just wanted to get this in so The Zeppo would have a post. All these Spike eps are going to get more play (which is to be expected here), but I didn't want this one to be neglected.
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Post by Queen E on Jun 24, 2003 16:34:38 GMT -5
Rob:
I was just discussing this episode with a co-worker whose about halfway through season 3. One of my favorite parts is the Buffy/Angel/Xander scene. Spring brought up the idea of Xander as viewer, of the episode representing him as "'show adjacent,' just as we are." I also appreciate how Joss never let's himself get too swept along in the romance; perpetually undercutting the tone, like in Helpless, with the:
ANGEL Because I could see your heart. You held it before you for everyone to see and I worried that it would be bruised or torn. More than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe, to warm it with my own.
BUFFY That's beautiful.
BUFFY Or, taken literally, incredibly gross.
ANGEL I was just thinking that too.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 24, 2003 21:31:04 GMT -5
Rob: I was just discussing this episode with a co-worker whose about halfway through season 3. One of my favorite parts is the Buffy/Angel/Xander scene. Spring brought up the idea of Xander as viewer, of the episode representing him as "'show adjacent,' just as we are." I also appreciate how Joss never let's himself get too swept along in the romance; perpetually undercutting the tone, like in Helpless, with the: ANGEL Because I could see your heart. You held it before you for everyone to see and I worried that it would be bruised or torn. More than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe, to warm it with my own. BUFFY That's beautiful. BUFFY Or, taken literally, incredibly gross. ANGEL I was just thinking that too. Yes. Joss & Co did try to get the message across that the B/A thing was highly idealized, just as they kept pounding us with how the B/S thing was essentially bad for both of them . . . but I think he was often either preaching to the choir or talking to the wall. I liked the way it was all handled by the writers though. They couldn't control people getting swept away regardless, but the reality of Buffy's relationships was always right out there.
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Post by Queen E on Apr 23, 2004 16:04:49 GMT -5
Spring:
Reread your Zeppo analysis yesterday; which made me go home and rewatch the episode. Good stuff! You always find something I've missed.
And yes, those were good arms to have. Shirt off and that little necklace thing he's got on--yummy.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 13, 2004 23:50:59 GMT -5
Great Review, Spring. I appreciate your pointing out the deliberate continuity errors, exaggerated characterization, and such. It's interesting to read reviews written by people who don't "get it" that criticize these very same elements. But it's all clearly planned carefully and for good reason.
I also think its neat that Xander makes such a big deal about being "car guy" just to have something, to be some one. Later in the series, he is "car guy" but he is quiet and mature about making this contribution to the group.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 14, 2004 7:40:51 GMT -5
Great Review, Spring. I appreciate your pointing out the deliberate continuity errors, exaggerated characterization, and such. It's interesting to read reviews written by people who don't "get it" that criticize these very same elements. But it's all clearly planned carefully and for good reason. I also think its neat that Xander makes such a big deal about being "car guy" just to have something, to be some one. Later in the series, he is "car guy" but he is quiet and mature about making this contribution to the group. The Zeppo is one of my favorites. Thanks to you and to Erin previously, for adding a bit to this lonely little thread. I felt the same way you did about other reviews of the episode. I looked at several reviews and summaries, and was especially surprised to read the episode being criticized because the Buffy-side of the story was too corny and melodramatic. That Buffy & Angel scene practically screamed "we are deliberately parodying the B/A super-angst!" And the extreme danger/melodrama of the "demon-of-the-week" was the same way. The deliberate time-wonkiness - I can understand a casual viewer not picking that up, and just feeling annoyed. But I like the chance they took with that. I mean, I'm sure that Joss/ME knew most viewers would just get irritated by that ticking time bomb that has way too many seconds left on it - but it fit the ep's feel, for them to reach out of the screen, and tweak.
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Post by myhathasacow on Feb 2, 2013 7:44:07 GMT -5
I also think its neat that Xander makes such a big deal about being "car guy" just to have something, to be some one. Later in the series, he is "car guy" but he is quiet and mature about making this contribution to the group. Yes, great catch! And I love the OTT Buffy/Angel/Xander scene as well. Although I thought the B/A story was always well-written and well-acted, I did find it a bit intense/melodramatic/boring at times, and it was great to see the show acknowledge that point of view. SMG and David seem like they're enjoying amping up the melodrama a little. Also, I love episodes where the show plays with the fact that the viewers are familiar with the show's premise/episode formula - and then have a great time messing with it. It's very smart and meta but it also feels like a reward to fans. "Superstar" is another example: seeing Jonathan be the Saviour of Sunnydale is brilliant because we're so used to seeing Buffy in that role.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Feb 2, 2013 21:11:45 GMT -5
While I can't remember EVER being bored with Buffy, I did recognize that in both her relationships with Angel and Riley she would make the same mistakes over and over. I never completely decided whether it was because she really didn't know any better, as might be common in a teen, or whether she was deliberately testing them to see how far they could be pushed, which is a common behavior in a child whose father has deserted the family.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 4, 2013 10:14:01 GMT -5
I also think its neat that Xander makes such a big deal about being "car guy" just to have something, to be some one. Later in the series, he is "car guy" but he is quiet and mature about making this contribution to the group. Yes, great catch! And I love the OTT Buffy/Angel/Xander scene as well. Although I thought the B/A story was always well-written and well-acted, I did find it a bit intense/melodramatic/boring at times, and it was great to see the show acknowledge that point of view. SMG and David seem like they're enjoying amping up the melodrama a little. Also, I love episodes where the show plays with the fact that the viewers are familiar with the show's premise/episode formula - and then have a great time messing with it. It's very smart and meta but it also feels like a reward to fans. "Superstar" is another example: seeing Jonathan be the Saviour of Sunnydale is brilliant because we're so used to seeing Buffy in that role. I loved the fact that the show was willing to acknowledge the B/A super-angst. They later did something similar with Spuffy when Andrew was "over romanticizing" in Storyteller. I never thought of it as something of a reward to the fans, but you are right. I like those eps, like Zeppo and Superstar, where we are basically being "directly addressed." I really liked the way Buffy seemed so different without her confidence. You could see what Jonathan's artificial "superstardom" in all fields was doing to her, and by extension, to everyone else in the "Jonaverse."
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 4, 2013 10:15:49 GMT -5
While I can't remember EVER being bored with Buffy, I did recognize that in both her relationships with Angel and Riley she would make the same mistakes over and over. I never completely decided whether it was because she really didn't know any better, as might be common in a teen, or whether she was deliberately testing them to see how far they could be pushed, which is a common behavior in a child whose father has deserted the family. Good thoughts. I think it was a bit of all those things. We definitely get the message that Buffy has been hurt by dad, and seeks pain in her relationships. And we get the message that making mistakes more than once, and learning the hard way, and having to sometimes learn the hard way over and over, is part of the process of growing up.
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