|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 9, 2003 15:45:43 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 10, 2003 8:04:12 GMT -5
OK - I'll start - nice review again Nan, especially the descriptions of the dynamic between Angel and Spike.
I do think that Angel was fully cognizant of the plan to get Hainsley by the time they were in the cemetary - mostly because I can't see any reason why Spike wouldn't tell him - and a lot of reasons why he would. And I thought what we did hear in the Angel's bedroom was plainly a precursor to Spike telling Angel his plan.
Also - Angel just doesn't seem or act surprised at all.
But I do think the delight Spike took in the way Hainsely was batting Angel around, etc., was very real though. He loved it.
Nice episode and a great, thorough review! It's going to be a good season for AtS, and for S3.
|
|
|
Post by deborah on Oct 10, 2003 9:17:42 GMT -5
Hi Nan.
Enjoyed the review. One small quibble. Angel was not the first familiar face he saw when he materialized, Harmony was. She just didn't signify.
BTW, Spring and I had a bit of a back and forth on the main board yesterday as to whether or not Angel knew about Spike's plan by the time they reached the cemetary. As you know, she believes he did, and I believe he did not. Neither of us managed to convince the other of our respective points of view. I believe this will be a point on which many people will agree to disagree, but I'm with you.
|
|
|
Post by raenstorm on Oct 10, 2003 10:29:11 GMT -5
Great job, Nan. As you know, I do agree that Angel had no idea Spike was going to betray Hainsley. Well, ok, I actually just agree that it is more likely Spike didn't know it either until he was in Hainsley's body. All he wanted was a way to get some control back and, if he could do it in Hainsley's body, there was no reason to move on to Angel. Interesting to note that there may have been more motivation than just taking over W&H. I'm sure Spike would have considered the fact that he could have gone to Buffy as Angel. Wonder if the moment-of-happiness clause would have still been in effect with Spike inside. Hmm? I mis-read what you said about Angel bare-chested. Whew! I was afraid you were about to incur the wrath of Betsy I also agree that Fred's comment about the Powers that Be and Spike's response being significant later. If the Powers that Be did send Spike, it is funny how they are always trying to make decisions for everyone. Anyone remember Jasmine? Will be interesting to see how that plays out. I'm willing to bet that the Powers are responsible for Spike and I wonder how their tendancy to take away the choice from people will come into play. Also, how that will come into play once Angel's decision to take away Connor's "choice" is revealed to the FG (and, come on, you know it will be). Allow me to channel Eve when I say, "Yay, Nan!"
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 10, 2003 12:01:25 GMT -5
Great job, Nan. As you know, I do agree that Angel had no idea Spike was going to betray Hainsley. Well, ok, I actually just agree that it is more likely Spike didn't know it either until he was in Hainsley's body. All he wanted was a way to get some control back and, if he could do it in Hainsley's body, there was no reason to move on to Angel. Interesting to note that there may have been more motivation than just taking over W&H. I'm sure Spike would have considered the fact that he could have gone to Buffy as Angel. Wonder if the moment-of-happiness clause would have still been in effect with Spike inside. Hmm? I mis-read what you said about Angel bare-chested. Whew! I was afraid you were about to incur the wrath of Betsy I also agree that Fred's comment about the Powers that Be and Spike's response being significant later. If the Powers that Be did send Spike, it is funny how they are always trying to make decisions for everyone. Anyone remember Jasmine? Will be interesting to see how that plays out. I'm willing to bet that the Powers are responsible for Spike and I wonder how their tendancy to take away the choice from people will come into play. Also, how that will come into play once Angel's decision to take away Connor's "choice" is revealed to the FG (and, come on, you know it will be). Allow me to channel Eve when I say, "Yay, Nan!" Spike is good now. He meant it when he said he no longer played for "that side." He always meant to betray Hainsley - he didn't want to be useless, he wanted to help - and help on the side of good. He wasn't just looking out for himself, or out to get Angel. The biggest reason I feel certain that Spike had a plan and shared it with Angel is that Spike is good now. Sure, he did and said some low-level, vengeful stuff and he loved it when Angel hit himself in the head, etc - he resents Angel, A LOT. But he's not playing selfish vengeance games with the big stuff. He wanted to get Hainsley. The best way to do that was set him up, with Angel on his side. It was a coordinated effort, and it worked beautifully. It's why it worked, it's why Angel knew immediately what to do, it's why he showed no surprise. You're shortchanging Spike with this theory. He's both smarter and "gooder" than that.
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 10, 2003 12:03:16 GMT -5
OK - I'll start - nice review again Nan, especially the descriptions of the dynamic between Angel and Spike. I do think that Angel was fully cognizant of the plan to get Hainsley by the time they were in the cemetary - mostly because I can't see any reason why Spike wouldn't tell him - and a lot of reasons why he would. And I thought what we did hear in the Angel's bedroom was plainly a precursor to Spike telling Angel his plan. Also - Angel just doesn't seem or act surprised at all. But I do think the delight Spike took in the way Hainsely was batting Angel around, etc., was very real though. He loved it. Nice episode and a great, thorough review! It's going to be a good season for AtS, and for S3. We have to agree to disagree about Spike's telling Angel the plan, Spring. The plan was contingent on Spike's knowing exactly how Hainsley transferred essences. And I see nothing that says he knew that before it was actually happening. Upon consideration, I think Spike improvised the plan on the spot. If Spike had been preparing to take action, take back control of his destiny, in Angel's bedroom, he would have been all energized and eager to get at it. That's not his manner at all. Instead, he's resigned, despairing. This is not a Spike preparing to go into action. This is not definitive--it's just the best reading of all the factors I can give.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 10, 2003 12:06:18 GMT -5
We have to agree to disagree about Spike's telling Angel the plan, Spring. The plan was contingent on Spike's knowing exactly how Hainsley transferred essences. And I see nothing that says he knew that before it was actually happening. Upon consideration, I think Spike improvised the plan on the spot. If Spike had been preparing to take action, take back control of his destiny, in Angel's bedroom, he would have been all energized and eager to get at it. That's not his manner at all. Instead, he's resigned, despairing. This is not a Spike preparing to go into action. This is not definitive--it's just the best reading of all the factors I can give. We leave Spike and Hainsley with Hainsely obviously ready to recruit Spike. It isn't a leap at all to assume Hainsely gave Spike the info he needed to know - never thinking for a minute Spike would use it against him. Spike is despairing because his plan to betray Hainsely does not BEGIN to give him back any control. It's all he can do, and at least it's something, and it helps him feel more than useless. But there's no reason to think it would relieve him of despair. He thinks he's being pulled into hell - and that's not gonna change.
|
|
|
Post by raenstorm on Oct 10, 2003 12:40:29 GMT -5
Spike is good now. He meant it when he said he no longer played for "that side." He always meant to betray Hainsley - he didn't want to be useless, he wanted to help - and help on the side of good. He wasn't just looking out for himself, or out to get Angel. The biggest reason I feel certain that Spike had a plan and shared it with Angel is that Spike is good now. Sure, he did and said some low-level, vengeful stuff and he loved it when Angel hit himself in the head, etc - he resents Angel, A LOT. But he's not playing selfish vengeance games with the big stuff. He wanted to get Hainsley. The best way to do that was set him up, with Angel on his side. It was a coordinated effort, and it worked beautifully. It's why it worked, it's why Angel knew immediately what to do, it's why he showed no surprise. You're shortchanging Spike with this theory. He's both smarter and "gooder" than that. I don't mean to shortchange Spike because I do so love him. So, perhaps my problem is with the way the writers presented the storyline. It was intentional set up to have us believe that Spike was going to betray Angel only for us to feel the fools as well as Hainsley when it turned there was a plan between the two vampires. It's a predictable plotline (and the Angel writing staff is usually not that predictable) and the times when we were purposely made it seem as though it could go either way were not neutral enough for me. Truth is, I could be swayed and, in fact, am on the fence. One, I do want to believe Spike would choose the good road but I also don't want to be biased. Two, the more I watch the graveyard scene the more the guys don't seem themselves which points to them being in on something. I've never known Spike to willingly go along to his demise... Ok, see, convicing myself that I'm wrong.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 10, 2003 13:05:21 GMT -5
I don't mean to shortchange Spike because I do so love him. So, perhaps my problem is with the way the writers presented the storyline. It was intentional set up to have us believe that Spike was going to betray Angel only for us to feel the fools as well as Hainsley when it turned there was a plan between the two vampires. It's a predictable plotline (and the Angel writing staff is usually not that predictable) and the times when we were purposely made it seem as though it could go either way were not neutral enough for me. Truth is, I could be swayed and, in fact, am on the fence. One, I do want to believe Spike would choose the good road but I also don't want to be biased. Two, the more I watch the graveyard scene the more the guys don't seem themselves which points to them being in on something. I've never known Spike to willingly go along to his demise... Ok, see, convicing myself that I'm wrong. Yes - we all love our Spike. That is indisputable! Yes, yes, and yes, Rae. The writers deliberately set us up to believe that Spike might be betraying Angel. But he's not. Spike doesn't come back from saving the world, just to align himself - even for a minute - with the likes of Hainsley. I really do agree it's kind of a confusing set up. But here's what I see when I cut through the deliberate fog: Hainsley attempts to recruit Spike. OFFSCREEN: Spike is shrewd enough to know that playing along could give him valuable info for defeating the evil Hainsley. He plays along. He hears what Hainsley proposes (that Spike take over Angel's body) and learns the information he needs. He starts to generate the plan to defeat Hainsley. He goes to see Angel (to tell him about it), and overhears the conversation about smashing the amulet. He goes to see Angel in his bedroom. He tells Angel everything - that he overhead about the amulet. That he feels despair (he doesn't share about the sucked into hell thing, but does share about feeling useless and ineffective). He tells him that Hainsley offered him a deal. He tells him he no longer plays for that side. OFFSCREEN: He gives Angel the details of the deal Hainsley proposed, and an outline of his plan. Angel goes along with the idea. They set out to the cemetary, and deliberately converse in such a way to set Hainsley up. They go through with the plan. Angel is ready for what Spike does, and kills Hainsely. ----------------------- Mostly, I just can't buy the idea that Spike ever considered seriously aligning himself with the evil Mr Hainsley.
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Oct 10, 2003 13:44:43 GMT -5
Great Review, Nan. Being in control or in charge seems to be the dominant theme. Perhaps Whose Really In Control will be the main theme all season, as Who Has The Power was last year on BtVS. In the Previously On Angel scenes Fred says she's "in charge" of the lab. Angel says he "in charge now" at W&H. Hainsley tells Spike he can put him "back in the driver's seat of his unlife." Spike says something about what gives TPTB the right to have control over someone--"not finished playing with you yet."
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Oct 10, 2003 13:46:54 GMT -5
Yes - we all love our Spike. That is indisputable! Yes, yes, and yes, Rae. The writers deliberately set us up to believe that Spike might be betraying Angel. But he's not. Spike doesn't come back from saving the world, just to align himself - even for a minute - with the likes of Hainsley. I really do agree it's kind of a confusing set up. But here's what I see when I cut through the deliberate fog: Hainsley attempts to recruit SI pike. OFFSCREEN: Spike is shrewd enough to know that playing along could give him valuable info for defeating the evil Hainsley. He plays along. He hears what Hainsley proposes (that Spike take over Angel's body) and learns the information he needs. He starts to generate the plan to defeat Hainsley. He goes to see Angel (to tell him about it), and overhears the conversation about smashing the amulet. He goes to see Angel in his bedroom. He tells Angel everything - that he overhead about the amulet. That he feels despair (he doesn't share about the sucked into hell thing, but does share about feeling useless and ineffective). He tells him that Hainsley offered him a deal. He tells him he no longer plays for that side. OFFSCREEN: He gives Angel the details of the deal Hainsley proposed, and an outline of his plan. Angel goes along with the idea. They set out to the cemetary, and deliberately converse in such a way to set Hainsley up. They go through with the plan. Angel is ready for what Spike does, and kills Hainsely. ----------------------- Mostly, I just can't buy the idea that Spike ever considered seriously aligning himself with the evil Mr Hainsley. I agree totally with you Spring. Spike is good. He's confused and upset about how things have turned out, but he's not bad.
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Oct 10, 2003 14:44:34 GMT -5
[/color] [/quote] Great review, Nan. This was Spike's episode. And he really was the one in charge. Spike was the one who came up with the plan to defeat Hainsley. Whether or not he told Angel, it was his idea, not Angel's. He was totally in control of that situation, but he needed Angel's cooperation. So he either strung Angel along to get him to the cemetary, or discussed at least the possibility of foiling Hainsley's plan. The bedroom scene was pretty intimate and I think Angel and Spike read each other real well. Angel didn't want to end Spike's existance. He didn't want to play God (not in this instance). Spike knew that, I feel. There is a definite connection between them. A certain sense of loyalty - like brothers. Even if Spike didn't know exactly how he was going to defeat Hainsley, I think he would have told Angel that that was his intention, and both Spike and Angel figured it out on the fly. Loved your reference to the dinnerware weapons. "A spoon?" My favorite scene (besides Angel smashing the amulet on his forehead), was the car-jumping scene. Spike just *knew* which car Angel would pick. Starsky and Hutch came to mind as they sped off. One question - when Hainsley said that Spike was a "ghost - close enough anyway", what do you think he meant? What else looks like a ghost but really isn't?
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 10, 2003 14:46:15 GMT -5
All I said in the review was that it was left ambiguous whether Spike went along with Hainsley at all. I maintain that it IS left ambiguous. One can suppose to their heart's content what Spike *might* have said to Angel offscreen, but we didn't see that happening. So I contend that it's left open according to the current screenplay.
I read the evidence differently than you do Spring, and although you're surely entitled to disagree with my judgment, we're not about to persuade one another, I'm afraid.
I say it's left open, and I believe it is. Enquiring minds are free to come down on either side of the fence with some evidence on their side.
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 10, 2003 14:50:00 GMT -5
Great review, Nan. This was Spike's episode. And he really was the one in charge. Spike was the one who came up with the plan to defeat Hainsley. Whether or not he told Angel, it was his idea, not Angel's. He was totally in control of that situation, but he needed Angel's cooperation. So he either strung Angel along to get him to the cemetary, or discussed at least the possibility of foiling Hainsley's plan. The bedroom scene was pretty intimate and I think Angel and Spike read each other real well. Angel didn't want to end Spike's existance. He didn't want to play God (not in this instance). Spike knew that, I feel. There is a definite connection between them. A certain sense of loyalty - like brothers. Even if Spike didn't know exactly how he was going to defeat Hainsley, I think he would have told Angel that that was his intention, and both Spike and Angel figured it out on the fly. Loved your reference to the dinnerware weapons. "A spoon?" My favorite scene (besides Angel smashing the amulet on his forehead), was the car-jumping scene. Spike just *knew* which car Angel would pick. Starsky and Hutch came to mind as they sped off. One question - when Hainsley said that Spike was a "ghost - close enough anyway", what do you think he meant? What else looks like a ghost but really isn't? Karen, I think Angel conked himself with an urn (as in, what cremated ashes are put into), not with the amulet. It wouldn't have made such a satisfying *thunk*. We don't yet know what Spike is. Some things are consistent with his being a ghost (per Fred's "tricorder") but some--like his being higher than room temperature instead of sucking warmth out of the air--are not. So at this point, he's "sorta" a ghost...but not entirely. And Hainsley, the necromancer, apparently knows this immediately without aid of tricorder.
|
|
|
Post by deborah on Oct 10, 2003 16:24:22 GMT -5
Yes - we all love our Spike. That is indisputable! Yes, yes, and yes, Rae. The writers deliberately set us up to believe that Spike might be betraying Angel. But he's not. Spike doesn't come back from saving the world, just to align himself - even for a minute - with the likes of Hainsley. I really do agree it's kind of a confusing set up. But here's what I see when I cut through the deliberate fog: Hainsley attempts to recruit Spike. OFFSCREEN: Spike is shrewd enough to know that playing along could give him valuable info for defeating the evil Hainsley. He plays along. He hears what Hainsley proposes (that Spike take over Angel's body) and learns the information he needs. He starts to generate the plan to defeat Hainsley. He goes to see Angel (to tell him about it), and overhears the conversation about smashing the amulet. He goes to see Angel in his bedroom. He tells Angel everything - that he overhead about the amulet. That he feels despair (he doesn't share about the sucked into hell thing, but does share about feeling useless and ineffective). He tells him that Hainsley offered him a deal. He tells him he no longer plays for that side. OFFSCREEN: He gives Angel the details of the deal Hainsley proposed, and an outline of his plan. Angel goes along with the idea. They set out to the cemetary, and deliberately converse in such a way to set Hainsley up. They go through with the plan. Angel is ready for what Spike does, and kills Hainsely. ----------------------- Mostly, I just can't buy the idea that Spike ever considered seriously aligning himself with the evil Mr Hainsley. Spring, thank you for defending your interpretation with such a comprehensive and easy to follow scenario. It would convince me but for two things. One, Angel's "More or Less" response to Wesleys query about whether Spike had come to him with his plan. If Spike had filled Angel in on all the details in his bedroom then why, when Wesley asked him if Spike came to him with his plan did Angel reply "More or Less?" Wouldn't he have answered with a simple yes? "More or less" still seems to me to be a deliberately vague response meant to deflect Wesley away from the knowledge that Spike had acted alone. I still think that Spike's motivation for witholding his plan from Angel was anger over the lack of faith Angel demonstrated in asking Spike how he had responded to Hainsley's offer. Keeping Angel in the dark, letting him think he had decided to act according to his own selfish interests by going along with Hainsley, and then surprising him with decisive proof of his loyalty served to make a more impressive show. Spike knew damn well that Angel was in denial about the sincerity of his reform and the extent of his role in defeating TF and saving the world. Spike knew just how easy it was for Angel to slip back into the comfortable belief that Spike would revert *true to form* and act only according to his own selfish interests. I'm having a very hard time articulating my thought but I just think it would appeal to Spike to let Angel believe the worst of him so that his act of faith would be that much more dramatic and powerful. If someone can intuit what I'm trying to say would you please post with a better, more precise statement for me?
|
|