Pet
S'cubie
Mmm..Thinkin' of you, Pet!!
Posts: 123
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Post by Pet on Oct 15, 2003 19:53:50 GMT -5
We have to agree to disagree about Spike's telling Angel the plan, Spring. The plan was contingent on Spike's knowing exactly how Hainsley transferred essences. And I see nothing that says he knew that before it was actually happening. Upon consideration, I think Spike improvised the plan on the spot. If Spike had been preparing to take action, take back control of his destiny, in Angel's bedroom, he would have been all energized and eager to get at it. That's not his manner at all. Instead, he's resigned, despairing. This is not a Spike preparing to go into action. This is not definitive--it's just the best reading of all the factors I can give. Hey Folks. I'm new at this posting stuff and am now delurking to enter this fascinating discussion. Nan, I loved your review. The epi quotes you gave were the one's which also caught my attention. Now, before I run to watch the new epi3, I wanted to say that while Spike did not have the whole plan, planned out, there are indications that he knew Hainsley was the medium (remember when he said he would not be controlled by H and H said he would be until he became corporeal?). Also, don't forget people. Angel knew Spike would turn because at the crucial moment when H's hand was in A's belly, A ground out "Spike", as if to tell him to come on and do it. Of course, Spike enjoyed seeing A suffer, but he had already told A he pulls for the good guys now. Yes, I agree the writers tried to pull a set up, but they gave us so many clues that Spike wasn't a sell out. I also believe that Spike was being sincere in his monologue about everything and everyone he deserves, but his digression into Fred being a "goer" was a clue, because we know he means Buffy is what he deserves. Another clue, Angel telling Wesley that Spike was not one to play well with others, sets the tone for other things Spike will do without fully clueing people in. I don't think we have to wonder if Spike is "good" or beat that dead redemption horse. Even though Spike said in this epi he was not about "atonement", etc., his every action showed that he felt he should get what the "good guys" get, the heros, not that "other place". In love this board and you guy's fiction and insights. In the immortal words of Kennedy, "I could get used to this!" Blessing. Pet
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Pet
S'cubie
Mmm..Thinkin' of you, Pet!!
Posts: 123
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Post by Pet on Oct 15, 2003 22:27:45 GMT -5
Hey,
Is anybody out there? I deluked for you folks and just saw an interesting Epi 3. It's clear that Angel wants to be the star, but all eyes are on Spike. Don't want him nipping at Fred, though. I'm a Spuffy. BTW, they left out Buffy telling him she loved him and the burning hands so that newbies would get the connection. They fan wanked us with the A & S dialogue about Buffy. Got to say though that the shows are interesting, even though Angel is still a ponce. Been watch the DVDs S1, 2 to get background because I never watched Angel, but, charasmatic nevertheless. Hello, drowing here. Anybody out there? ;D
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 15, 2003 22:34:22 GMT -5
Hey, Is anybody out there? I deluked for you folks and just saw an interesting Epi 3. It's clear that Angel wants to be the star, but all eyes are on Spike. Don't want him nipping at Fred, though. I'm a Spuffy. BTW, they left out Buffy telling him she loved him and the burning hands so that newbies would get the connection. They fan wanked us with the A & S dialogue about Buffy. Got to say though that the shows are interesting, even though Angel is still a ponce. Been watch the DVDs S1, 2 to get background because I never watched Angel, but, charasmatic nevertheless. Hello, drowing here. Anybody out there? ;D Hi Pet! Welcome! We've got some episode discussion going on over at the Main SSS Board. Here is the direct link: scubiefan.proboards18.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1066263768&start=45Given what you said in your post about this new ep... I'm sure you will find the discussion interesting
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Post by LadyDi on Oct 16, 2003 0:45:14 GMT -5
Hey, Is anybody out there? I deluked for you folks and just saw an interesting Epi 3. It's clear that Angel wants to be the star, but all eyes are on Spike. Don't want him nipping at Fred, though. I'm a Spuffy. BTW, they left out Buffy telling him she loved him and the burning hands so that newbies would get the connection. They fan wanked us with the A & S dialogue about Buffy. Got to say though that the shows are interesting, even though Angel is still a ponce. Been watch the DVDs S1, 2 to get background because I never watched Angel, but, charasmatic nevertheless. Hello, drowing here. Anybody out there? ;D Hola! Welcome. I'm Spuffy all the way thru. Most of us are, but we've got a few Bangels too (we love them anyway). Glad you stopped by. ;D
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 16, 2003 12:09:57 GMT -5
Nan, I have been remiss in telling you how much I have thoroughly enjoyed your reviews. I am sorry I'm just now saying something.
I have greatly enjoyed your reviews for the first two episodes - you have provided me with a lot of food for thought.
Great job, Nan! I can't wait to read your reviews for the other episodes!!
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Post by Kerrie on Oct 23, 2003 22:46:29 GMT -5
Another great review Nan. I was happy with the ambiguity of Spike's "double-crossing" scenario. There is insufficient evidence for me to know one way or the other. I hoped that Spike had his plan all the time (suggesting that he had learnt something from his deal with Adam), but I do not depend on it. I feel confident that he did not share his full plan with Angel, but may have hinted off-camera to work with him.
I liked your identification of 'just rewards' as a theme. The problem of not knowing the title in advance is that I can't always spot the themes. It is interesting to speculate on what Spike and Angel really deserve.
I can't remember who said it, but I liked the point about Harmony being helpless too. I find it interesting that Harmony seems to be set up as the juxtopisiton to Eve. Eve is W&H's choice in administrative personnel. The FG choose the sorta-evil and clueless Harmony. Horses for courses? What is the course?
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 23, 2003 22:52:02 GMT -5
Another great review Nan. I was happy with the ambiguity of Spike's "double-crossing" scenario. There is insufficient evidence for me to know one way or the other. I hoped that Spike had his plan all the time (suggesting that he had learnt something from his deal with Adam), but I do not depend on it. I feel confident that he did not share his full plan with Angel, but may have hinted off-camera to work with him. I liked your identification of 'just rewards' as a theme. The problem of not knowing the title in advance is that I can't always spot the themes. It is interesting to speculate on what Spike and Angel really deserve. I can't remember who said it, but I liked the point about Harmony being helpless too. I find it interesting that Harmony seems to be set up as the juxtopisiton to Eve. Eve is W&H's choice in administrative personnel. The FG choose the sorta-evil and clueless Harmony. Horses for courses? What is the course? Hi, Kerrie. Thanks for your comment, and I'm glad somebody besides me can live with open-ended ambiguity. I wonder, too, what part Harmony will play in the overall scheme of things. She appears to have possibilities I hadn't heretofore considered. I think Spike and Angel know each other so well that no off-camera prompting was needed. They each just saw the opportunity and seized it.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 5, 2004 7:03:52 GMT -5
Spike is good now, but he's still Spike. The same guy who spent ages in a wheelchair past the point where he had to in order to crunch Angel when he least expected it. The same guy who kept swinging way past when the body he was wearing was dead. And the same guy we now know wouldn't go for the cup until Angel was well and truly beat. He's a guy that loves to put the boot in, specially into Angel. He might be a good guy now, but he doesn't have to be nice about it. I think he was playing Angel throughout, not tell him the plan, just get him to dance.
Angel's "More or less" is right up there with "Fell down the stairs". He just doesn't want to admit Spike has any power, let alone more than him even for one moment.
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Post by RAKSHA on Jan 5, 2004 7:30:33 GMT -5
Spike is good now, but he's still Spike. The same guy who spent ages in a wheelchair past the point where he had to in order to crunch Angel when he least expected it. The same guy who kept swinging way past when the body he was wearing was dead. And the same guy we now know wouldn't go for the cup until Angel was well and truly beat. He's a guy that loves to put the boot in, specially into Angel. He might be a good guy now, but he doesn't have to be nice about it. I think he was playing Angel throughout, not tell him the plan, just get him to dance. Angel's "More or less" is right up there with "Fell down the stairs". He just doesn't want to admit Spike has any power, let alone more than him even for one moment. I don't see Angel telling Fred that he was bruised falling down the stairs as just a way of shrugging off Spike's importance. Once the physical Cup of Torment was revealed as a red herring, then the question of who beat who became a private conflict between Angel and Spike rather than a decisive answer to the Shanshu quandary. As a private conflict, I don't think Angel had any need or obligation to discuss the matter in Fred's lab, or even with Fred if he didn't want to do so. Spike, who is often a braggart, didn't say a word about it either. It's between the two of them; and it shows Spike's occasional generosity of spirit that he didn't lord it over Angel on returning to W&H. Angel only revealed the fight and Spike's victory to Gunn because Gunn, unlike Fred, is a warrior at heart and Gunn probed a bit deeper....
GAIL
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 5, 2004 7:36:38 GMT -5
As a private conflict, I don't think Angel had any need or obligation to discuss the matter in Fred's lab, or even with Fred if he didn't want to do so. hmm, also true. I'm kinda mad at Angel at the moment so I tend to see the worst which is among the things he does that are the reason I'm mad at him so I really ought to know better...
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 6, 2004 15:44:51 GMT -5
Spike is good now, but he's still Spike. The same guy who spent ages in a wheelchair past the point where he had to in order to crunch Angel when he least expected it. The same guy who kept swinging way past when the body he was wearing was dead. And the same guy we now know wouldn't go for the cup until Angel was well and truly beat. He's a guy that loves to put the boot in, specially into Angel. He might be a good guy now, but he doesn't have to be nice about it. I think he was playing Angel throughout, not tell him the plan, just get him to dance. Angel's "More or less" is right up there with "Fell down the stairs". He just doesn't want to admit Spike has any power, let alone more than him even for one moment. Beccaelizabeth, you came a little late to some of these discussions but you didn't leave your wit at home, fortunately. I'm right with you about the distinction between Good and Nice. Good can be a lot of things, including scary: why else would Biblical angels greet people with "Fear not!" Becaues they're scaaaary, that's why! Spike is definitely both good and NOT NICE!
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