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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 17, 2003 6:58:20 GMT -5
I remember it quite well, thank you. Spike could barely help himself at the time, but he was still there to help Buffy and the others. Gail, LadyDi - Interesting point about the way Spike helped out in Season 7 of BtVS. I do think we see that repeated here on Angel. Spike likes to be useful. He was actively useful in the service of Evil, and now he wants to be actively useful in the service of Good (seen in episode 1 of this season, and also, note how he was inadvertently useful in this episode). This doesn't speak to a great need to find his destiny and serve humanity as it does with Angel - for Spike, it's more about being energetic and curious, feeling good about himself, and simply feeling good.
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on Oct 17, 2003 8:18:44 GMT -5
Nan Newbie here! What a great analysis! I recently found your reviews through slayage.com. I've been reading the reviews from there for a long time (Hercules, AICN and others) but have to say I like yours the best. You actually analyze the story instead of nitpick the details.
On another board people are expressing a great dislike of this particular episode (possibly just because Spike wasn't the "main" focus?). I was sort of torn until I read your review. I think it was the despair that you mentioned that left me feeling odd it. Not disliking it, but troubled by the mood it left me in. I just didn't really know why until I read your article.
Definitely not a happy ep, even with the "family" get together at the beginning and end. If the 1st ep was about power, and the 2nd was about powerlessness, I saw this one as being about trust. They're a dysfynctional family that doesn't trust each other. It's yet another family that Spike stands on the outskirts of. He's only showing possible trust in one person so far, Fred.
I totally agreed with your observation that Angel is distancing himself from those closest to himself to help strangers. While Spike's urges to do good are reserved for those closest to himself. Currently of which there is no one really.
I also agree that Spike is refusing any help that would come from Angel in any way. I am enjoying how the writers are leaving you wondering exactly what he is up to, if anything. Whether it's his role in defeating the Necromancer or if he's playing on Fred's sympathy to get help. I loved how Spike was misty and barely there until Fred's heartfelt claim that she'd help, even without buying his line about vendettas. Then with a smirk, he was all there telling her there's no need to get all dramatic when that's exactly what he's been doing. Just leaves you wondering what he's up to and what he really sees when he's not there!
Great observations by everyone! Can't wait for next week's ep and for the next review!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 17, 2003 8:43:43 GMT -5
Nan Newbie here! What a great analysis! I recently found your reviews through slayage.com. I've been reading the reviews from there for a long time (Hercules, AICN and others) but have to say I like yours the best. You actually analyze the story instead of nitpick the details. On another board people are expressing a great dislike of this particular episode (possibly just because Spike wasn't the "main" focus?). I was sort of torn until I read your review. I think it was the despair that you mentioned that left me feeling odd it. Not disliking it, but troubled by the mood it left me in. I just didn't really know why until I read your article. Definitely not a happy ep, even with the "family" get together at the beginning and end. If the 1st ep was about power, and the 2nd was about powerlessness, I saw this one as being about trust. They're a dysfynctional family that doesn't trust each other. It's yet another family that Spike stands on the outskirts of. He's only showing possible trust in one person so far, Fred. I totally agreed with your observation that Angel is distancing himself from those closest to himself to help strangers. While Spike's urges to do good are reserved for those closest to himself. Currently of which there is no one really. I also agree that Spike is refusing any help that would come from Angel in any way. I am enjoying how the writers are leaving you wondering exactly what he is up to, if anything. Whether it's his role in defeating the Necromancer or if he's playing on Fred's sympathy to get help. I loved how Spike was misty and barely there until Fred's heartfelt claim that she'd help, even without buying his line about vendettas. Then with a smirk, he was all there telling her there's no need to get all dramatic when that's exactly what he's been doing. Just leaves you wondering what he's up to and what he really sees when he's not there! Great observations by everyone! Can't wait for next week's ep and for the next review! Hi, tkent. Glad you could join us, and I appreciate your comments. It WAS a strange episode--the top and the bottom layers, surface and depth, were kind of out of synch. I liked it better as an idea, once I'd thought about it a little, than I did in its execution--the actual episode we all saw. It certainly didn't have all the jokes and funny snarking that the previous episode did. I certainly don't mind dark or angst--how could anyone love the Jossverse who DID?--so next week's episode sounds a lot more like one thing, clear through, all layers, than 5.3 was. We'll see. I'm glad you're enjoying my reviews. I'm enjoying doing them and have never done anything quite like this before. So we're all setting out to explore together. [/color]
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 17, 2003 8:49:49 GMT -5
Nan Newbie here! What a great analysis! I recently found your reviews through slayage.com. I've been reading the reviews from there for a long time (Hercules, AICN and others) but have to say I like yours the best. You actually analyze the story instead of nitpick the details. On another board people are expressing a great dislike of this particular episode (possibly just because Spike wasn't the "main" focus?). I was sort of torn until I read your review. I think it was the despair that you mentioned that left me feeling odd it. Not disliking it, but troubled by the mood it left me in. I just didn't really know why until I read your article. Definitely not a happy ep, even with the "family" get together at the beginning and end. If the 1st ep was about power, and the 2nd was about powerlessness, I saw this one as being about trust. They're a dysfynctional family that doesn't trust each other. It's yet another family that Spike stands on the outskirts of. He's only showing possible trust in one person so far, Fred. I totally agreed with your observation that Angel is distancing himself from those closest to himself to help strangers. While Spike's urges to do good are reserved for those closest to himself. Currently of which there is no one really. I also agree that Spike is refusing any help that would come from Angel in any way. I am enjoying how the writers are leaving you wondering exactly what he is up to, if anything. Whether it's his role in defeating the Necromancer or if he's playing on Fred's sympathy to get help. I loved how Spike was misty and barely there until Fred's heartfelt claim that she'd help, even without buying his line about vendettas. Then with a smirk, he was all there telling her there's no need to get all dramatic when that's exactly what he's been doing. Just leaves you wondering what he's up to and what he really sees when he's not there! Great observations by everyone! Can't wait for next week's ep and for the next review! Hi n'ubie! I second Nan's welcome, and I second your thoughts on the excellence of Nan's review. I also invite you to join us on the main thread (we are currently on Part 54, which is the thread at the top): scubiefan.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=generalI also invite you to check out all the goodies there are to check out at our homepage (which includes "guest reviews" - I don't think the guest review is up yet for this ep, but it is for the other two eps . . . other S'cubies take turns doing a supplemental review to Nan's . . . take a look and let Nan know if you are interested in doing a "guest shot"). www.soulfulspike.comAnd again, welcome!
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 17, 2003 10:10:33 GMT -5
And once again you manage to blow my socks off with your analysis! Great job, Nan!! I loved, loved the idea you brought in about how some people measure "goodness" (or what have you) by how you treat the stranger next to you, the person you don't know, then your family and friends. While the FG appeared to be a family in this episode (thinking mostly about the beginning and ending scenes), in reality, they are growing further apart daily. They are constantly wary of W&H and of each other. They are constantly questioning one another's actions, be it silent questioning or outright questioning like they did with Gunn in this episode. Each episode continually gets better and I cannot wait for next week! Nan, again, you did a wonderful job! I have loved reading your reviews and am so proud of all the recognition you have received!
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Post by deborah on Oct 17, 2003 11:18:38 GMT -5
<Some have contended that we are judged not by how we treat family and friends but by how we treat the stranger at the gate: the one we encounter in need who has no claim on our assistance: the parable of the Good Samaritan. In this present case, Angel is all gung-ho to offer and even force assistance on the pretty blonde; the snarky blond is left wandering aimlessly through the halls, his disappearances lengthening and increasingly harrowing, unnoticed by anyone but himself. A clear case of out of sight, out of mind. Spike, the neglected Samaritan.> This was a great concept. I was reminded, after reading the review, of how the Scoobies reacted in BUFFY Season 4 when Spike came, unable to hunt and confused and frightened after being chipped by the Initiative, to them for help. While they didn't treat him with tenderness or love, they did care for him. They let him stay with Giles, then Xander and saw to it that he was fed and protected from the Initiative that was hunting him. Considering that Spike had tried to bite and possibly kill Willow and had definitely revelled in terrifying her in her dorm room after escaping from the Initiative, the Scoobies' continued care of Spike is laudable. It's true that there was a strategic reason to keep Spike a prisoner rather than staking him, i.e. he had knowledge of the Initiative, but they kept him long after that reason was valid. And Giles actually interacted with Spike, watching Passions on the telly. Xander even loaned Spike his clothes when Spike ruined his own in the laundry, treating Spike like an annoying roomate rather than a totally despised captive evil thing. The Scoobies even let Spike sit at the table with them on Thanksgiving, albeit tied up; one can assume that they let him have some of the food. They could have just left him tied up on the floor. One would think that the Fang Gang would WANT to keep Spike around and work with him, if only to find out how W&H is involved with the amulet, since Spike's current condition was very likely intended for Angel. GAIL Minor quibble Gail, Xander didn't lend Spike his clothing in "Doomed", Spike took them while Xander was out. (Not that he had a whole lot of choice, as it was a matter of wear Xander's clothes or wear nothing at all. )
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Post by deborah on Oct 17, 2003 11:47:17 GMT -5
Nan, great review.
One thing confused me - and I'll have to watch the final Spike & Fred scene again this weekend to check it out for myself - but you mentioned that Spike refused to seek help from the Senior Partners. Aren't the Senior Partners the evil beings who run the entire multi-dimmensial legal firm of W&H of which Angel only heads the LA branch? Why would Fred suggest consulting them? Or in this context were you referring to the FG who are the department heads of the LA branch?
One more thing - still no byline on your review. When you click on the link from Slayage and the review comes up your name is no where to be seen.
Also, I was wondering if maybe the first post of each Review Discussion thread should also include an invitation for visitors to check out the Main Board. I don't know if its clear to visitors that there is more to the S3 Message Board that the Review Discussion thread. Judging by the the new members that have joined us since your reviews began I gather that some of them have figured it out. But maybe others who came to your discussion thread had less adventurous spirits. Just a thought.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 17, 2003 11:54:56 GMT -5
Nan, great review. One thing confused me - and I'll have to watch the final Spike & Fred scene again this weekend to check it out for myself - but you mentioned that Spike refused to seek help from the Senior Partners. Aren't the Senior Partners the evil beings who run the entire multi-dimmensial legal firm of W&H of which Angel only heads the LA branch? Why would Fred suggest consulting them? Or in this context were you referring to the FG who are the department heads of the LA branch? One more thing - still no byline on your review. When you click on the link from Slayage and the review comes up your name is no where to be seen. Also, I was wondering if maybe the first post of each Review Discussion thread should also include an invitation for visitors to check out the Main Board. I don't know if its clear to visitors that there is more to the S3 Message Board that the Review Discussion thread. Judging by the the new members that have joined us since your reviews began I gather that some of them have figured it out. But maybe others who came to your discussion thread had less adventurous spirits. Just a thought. Nope, it's the Senior Partners. I suspect Fred is feeling overwhelmed with the responsibility of solving a problem she doesn't understand, knowing Spike's unlife depends on her doing so.
Re the sig, it's at the end of the article, along with the date: before the MISCELLANEOUS section. I'll take a look myself from Slayage and see if it still appears. And a connection to the site, and this discussion thread, also is there, at the end of the article.
After: yes, they're all there when I look, anyway. Check again, Deb, and see if perhaps you didn't look quite far enough.[/color]
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Post by nmcill on Oct 17, 2003 12:22:05 GMT -5
naked Spike - a complete breakdown of his "Black Clad Duster" BB persona.
I just discovered this site - referred for the essays. Absolutely enjoying my visit and all the insightful and stimulating ideas.
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Post by deborah on Oct 17, 2003 12:26:23 GMT -5
Nope, it's the Senior Partners. I suspect Fred is feeling overwhelmed with the responsibility of solving a problem she doesn't understand, knowing Spike's unlife depends on her doing so.
Re the sig, it's at the end of the article, along with the date: before the MISCELLANEOUS section. I'll take a look myself from Slayage and see if it still appears. And a connection to the site, and this discussion thread, also is there, at the end of the article.
After: yes, they're all there when I look, anyway. Check again, Deb, and see if perhaps you didn't look quite far enough. [/color] [/quote] Ohhh. I do see your name at the end of the review before the Misc section. I guess I was expecting to see it up at the top like a byline. And I see the link to the S3 site at the very bottom of the page. So, never mind. I claim fogg(ier) than usual brain on account of more Benadryl ingestion to combat yet another case of MES (melted eye syndrome). It's happened several times since the first occurence following the GOTR concert last May and I still have no idea what causes it. Thanks for clarifying matters for me. I can't believe that Angel or any of the FG would willingly go to the Senior Partners for help on anything, considering they're, I dunno, EVIL. I can see Fred wanting to consult the PTB but not the Senior Partners. And speaking of the PTB (and please excuse my ignorance of Angel lore) but Cordy used to be the conduit to the PTB, right? Now that she's comatose, does Angel still have a link to them? Is the White Room the way to the Senior Partners or TPB?
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 17, 2003 12:37:29 GMT -5
naked Spike - a complete breakdown of his "Black Clad Duster" BB persona. I just discovered this site - referred for the essays. Absolutely enjoying my visit and all the insightful and stimulating ideas. Glad you like what you've seen so far, nmcill. Have you yet checked out Spring Summers' Spike-centric analyses of BtVS eps, in SpikeCentricity, on the site (as opposed to the board)? If you're a fan of Nekkid Spike (or anything approaching that), you'll like Spring's essays. They're one of the S3 site's real treasures. Try it: you'll like it! [/color]
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 17, 2003 12:41:20 GMT -5
Ohhh. I do see your name at the end of the review before the Misc section. I guess I was expecting to see it up at the top like a byline. And I see the link to the S3 site at the very bottom of the page. So, never mind. I claim fogg(ier) than usual brain on account of more Benadryl ingestion to combat yet another case of MES (melted eye syndrome). It's happened several times since the first occurence following the GOTR concert last May and I still have no idea what causes it. Thanks for clarifying matters for me. I can't believe that Angel or any of the FG would willingly go to the Senior Partners for help on anything, considering they're, I dunno, EVIL. I can see Fred wanting to consult the PTB but not the Senior Partners. And speaking of the PTB (and please excuse my ignorance of Angel lore) but Cordy used to be the conduit to the PTB, right? Now that she's comatose, does Angel still have a link to them? Is the White Room the way to the Senior Partners or TPB? With Cordy in a coma, Angel & Co. currently have no direct contact for consulting with TPTB, as far as I know. And I agree: it's very strange that Fred should have offered to contact the Senior Partners. I'd assume utter desperation. And the White Room belongs exclusively to the Senior Partners: it's the Holy of Holies in the Wolfram and Hart building. There's been no least suggestion that I know of that TPTB have any connection with it whatsoever. [/color]
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Post by Lori on Oct 17, 2003 12:50:36 GMT -5
I wonder if Fred thought to send Spike to the SP because the amulet belongs to them. There is something magical in it because Spike said he keeps getting brought back to W&H. Maybe Fred thought the SP would explain about Spike.
She is scientifically smart, but she is a bit naive at times.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 17, 2003 13:30:42 GMT -5
I wonder if Fred thought to send Spike to the SP because the amulet belongs to them. There is something magical in it because Spike said he keeps getting brought back to W&H. Maybe Fred thought the SP would explain about Spike. She is scientifically smart, but she is a bit naive at times. Could be, Lori. Since it's just a brief mention, I think we can read into it any reasonable motivation that we want. And that the amulet belongs to the Senior Partners is pretty demonstrable, inasmuch as Spike can't leave the city and gets pulled back to W & H when he tries, for instance. Everything centers on W & H, which in turn centers on the Senior Partners. [/color]
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Post by jane on Oct 17, 2003 17:13:36 GMT -5
Nan, great review and I'm glad to have found you. Very insightful and made me appreciate the episode even more so. Like the FG I'm feeling a bit lost in the new surroundings yearning for the old days. The cost of die hard fandom.
Did anyone else hear Lorne mention Angel's weight gain? It was rather funny. Can vampires gain weight? And if you were fat when becoming a vamp do you stay that way? Does anyone know?
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