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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 17, 2003 17:23:44 GMT -5
Nan, great review and I'm glad to have found you. Very insightful and made me appreciate the episode even more so. Like the FG I'm feeling a bit lost in the new surroundings yearning for the old days. The cost of die hard fandom. Did anyone else hear Lorne mention Angel's weight gain? It was rather funny. Can vampires gain weight? And if you were fat when becoming a vamp do you stay that way? Does anyone know? Hello, Jane. Glad you dropped in on us. Fat vamps? Well, there was the one who killed Faith's watcher, as I recall--his girth was such that he filled up a circular tub about the size of my living room. (Was his name Kakistos?) But perhaps he was a demon, not a vamp. I don't recall. I gather Spike is unusual in liking human food, but all vamps can (and sometimes do) drink beer, etc. And there's certainly a fat component possible in blood: cholesterol, and all that. So I'd say that a vamp COULD be a bit stout, with enough beer and fatty blood intake.
I think that if a stout person were turned, he'd tend to stay that way: body characteristics are pretty well locked in at the time of death and tend to stay that way indefinitely, it seems.
What do you think? [/color]
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Post by Betsy on Oct 17, 2003 18:05:04 GMT -5
Nan, great review and I'm glad to have found you. Very insightful and made me appreciate the episode even more so. Like the FG I'm feeling a bit lost in the new surroundings yearning for the old days. The cost of die hard fandom. Did anyone else hear Lorne mention Angel's weight gain? It was rather funny. Can vampires gain weight? And if you were fat when becoming a vamp do you stay that way? Does anyone know? Actually lAngel has lost a lot of weight from last season. I think what Lorne was referring to was the weight on Angel's shoulders.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 17, 2003 18:11:54 GMT -5
Actually lAngel has lost a lot of weight from last season. I think what Lorne was referring to was the weight on Angel's shoulders. Although that's true, Betsy, I think Jane's question was more theoretical. Either way, between the two of us, I hope we've answered her.[/color]
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Post by Nickim on Oct 17, 2003 19:32:37 GMT -5
Actually lAngel has lost a lot of weight from last season. I think what Lorne was referring to was the weight on Angel's shoulders. Yeah, DB's looking really good, but it was funny when he looked down at his stomach.
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Post by Karen on Oct 17, 2003 23:57:08 GMT -5
Nan, I totally enjoyed your review of Unleashed. You really nailed it on the head that even thought the gang looked like they were pulling together, in fact they were falling apart. Mistrust, jealousy, insecurity, impatience, secrets. All signs of a "dysfunctional family", as Fred has said. Only Lorne seemed to be outside of all the angst. My favorite line: Angel, to Spike: You know that whoosh thing that you do, when you’re suddenly not there anymore? I love that.Funny, and telling. Angel has no patience for Spike. He says it quite often. Spike is a distraction; he shows relief when he disappears, etc. Spike is too much of a reminder of Angel's inner demon. It will be interesting to see how he comes to terms with integrating Spike into his life, as well as his inner monster. Also, when Spike said he was slipping closer to darkness/the other side, it reminded me of how Angel is in danger of doing just that. How dark can gray become before it's considered black? And is there any coming back from giving in to the darkside? - sorry, kind of popped out. I'm really looking forward to the rest of the season, and your great reviews!
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 18, 2003 12:04:39 GMT -5
Nan, congratulations. Your first review was really good - I was so impressed with it. Last week's was even better, and this week - I'm detecting a pattern here!
It isn't just your insights into the episode that I enjoy so much, it is the way you put the thoughts together. Your reviews are not just interesting, but a pleasure to read. Unfortunately (sorta) I pretty much agree with every point you made this week, so I have no intelligent arguments to present. Just kind of a 'yeah, wow, me too!'...
I do have a question though - and I'll check back here cause I'm really curious about this. I know you said you were 'spoiled' for the season, and I'm wondering if you feel this makes it easier to do the reviews or harder? Being unspoiled, I don't have anything to 'shut out' when I'm writing. I wondered how you manage to do that, because you're being very good about not giving 'hints' other than what you would be doing from opinion only.
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Post by nmcil on Oct 18, 2003 13:01:34 GMT -5
Hi Nan - I am a neubie here trying to figure how to funtion on this really great board. Again, I loved your review of Unleashed - really fine work.
About nekkid Spike - the lack of his normal attire - the symbol of her persona as The BB is, IMO, a sign of the deconstruction he will experience. His coat has always been a sign of his mask and his self-defense. The descent into The Belly, his battle with his person demons, strips away all his psyche defensive mechanism - thus nekkid Spike. He will be broken down to flesh, bone, and psyche - to make a really poor pun, the bare essentials. Is this why Harmony and even Gunn refere to him as Blondie Bear?
Are you familiar with Joseph Campbell lectures on "The Inward Journey?" His explorations of the connection between the mythic symbols and functions and the and stages of a schizophrenic breakdown fit perfectly with the storylines in AtS.
As you know, the transformation of states of being, is the essential motif in the mythic Hero's Journey - the leaving behind of dependency into the viable self-sustaining individual, The Death and Resurrection & The Return of The Hero is, IMO, what is being presented in the series thus far.
Sorry for the long post - After all of this, I hope I have got the posting right.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 18, 2003 13:32:33 GMT -5
Nan, congratulations. Your first review was really good - I was so impressed with it. Last week's was even better, and this week - I'm detecting a pattern here! It isn't just your insights into the episode that I enjoy so much, it is the way you put the thoughts together. Your reviews are not just interesting, but a pleasure to read. Unfortunately (sorta) I pretty much agree with every point you made this week, so I have no intelligent arguments to present. Just kind of a 'yeah, wow, me too!'... I do have a question though - and I'll check back here cause I'm really curious about this. I know you said you were 'spoiled' for the season, and I'm wondering if you feel this makes it easier to do the reviews or harder? Being unspoiled, I don't have anything to 'shut out' when I'm writing. I wondered how you manage to do that, because you're being very good about not giving 'hints' other than what you would be doing from opinion only. Patti, if you mean how can I "un-know" what's gonna happen down the road, I don't really--I haven't seen it. It's only a broad outline of a future event, and what it will mean in practice, I'll have to wait to see. Also, I'm very used to writing things one character knows but another doesn't. Compartmentalized mind, I guess. Is that any sort of an answer? [/color]
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 18, 2003 13:39:09 GMT -5
Hi Nan - I am a neubie here trying to figure how to funtion on this really great board. Again, I loved your review of Unleashed - really fine work. About nekkid Spike - the lack of his normal attire - the symbol of her persona as The BB is, IMO, a sign of the deconstruction he will experience. His coat has always been a sign of his mask and his self-defense. The descent into The Belly, his battle with his person demons, strips away all his psyche defensive mechanism - thus nekkid Spike. He will be broken down to flesh, bone, and psyche - to make a really poor pun, the bare essentials. Is this why Harmony and even Gunn refere to him as Blondie Bear? Are you familiar with Joseph Campbell lectures on "The Inward Journey?" His explorations of the connection between the mythic symbols and functions and the and stages of a schizophrenic breakdown fit perfectly with the storylines in AtS. As you know, the transformation of states of being, is the essential motif in the mythic Hero's Journey - the leaving behind of dependency into the viable self-sustaining individual, The Death and Resurrection & The Return of The Hero is, IMO, what is being presented in the series thus far. Sorry for the long post - After all of this, I hope I have got the posting right. nmcil, I'm glad you liked my review and came to visit with us here. I think maybe English is not your first language, so pardon me if I don't interpret your comment correctly. If you're asking whether Joseph Cambell's theories of the Hero's Journey have applications to Spike, I'm sure they do. But whether Joss Whedon has the same theories about personal transformation as Campbell, I don't know. I've never seen him refer to Campbell in any of his interviews. So he may use part of the pattern, and the meaning, and not use another, if you see what I mean. Campbell sees tendencies, patterns, in human thoughts about being and religion. But not all of these agree. So Joss Whedon's vision of Spike's journey may not agree altogether, yet conform in some details. For instance, being a vampire MIGHT be an analogy of Original Sin. But not all people or all religions believe Man is born sinful; so Mr. Whedon may have something else in mind when some of his characters are vampires and some are not.
I hope this is a sensible answer to your question. [/color]
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 18, 2003 14:50:37 GMT -5
Patti, if you mean how can I "un-know" what's gonna happen down the road, I don't really--I haven't seen it. It's only a broad outline of a future event, and what it will mean in practice, I'll have to wait to see. Also, I'm very used to writing things one character knows but another doesn't. Compartmentalized mind, I guess. Is that any sort of an answer? [/color] [/quote] Yes! Thanks, it does help explain it to me.
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Post by makd on Oct 18, 2003 16:50:25 GMT -5
I'll go look and, if moved, comment on your rant there.
Later: makd, I can't find your rant in the last three pages posted. Can you give me a post number on the current thread of the main board? [/color] [/quote] whoa - I'll go find it; I call it a rant, maybe others might say it's just an opinion.
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Post by makd on Oct 18, 2003 17:02:55 GMT -5
okay. Techno-klutz here; can't find it. I posted several comments between Thursday night and Friday night. I suspect they really aren't "rants", since some people liked them???
In any event, I read several reviews of the episode under question, and yours was, of course, the best!
congratulations, again!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 18, 2003 17:13:20 GMT -5
okay. Techno-klutz here; can't find it. I posted several comments between Thursday night and Friday night. I suspect they really aren't "rants", since some people liked them??? In any event, I read several reviews of the episode under question, and yours was, of course, the best! congratulations, again! OK--and thanks. Bow to the left, bow to the right. [/color]
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Post by Wnde1drs on Oct 22, 2003 9:43:27 GMT -5
Newbie to Scubies here. I was a long time lurker of the Scoopme board. I am delurking because I have so enjoyed the reviews from Nan Dibble. I was excited to hear Nan was doing the review. I read Nan's Enemy of My Enemy and Old Blood and loved them. It was a story that has stuck with me ever since reading it. I found it to be extremely moving and one of the best reads I have had the priviledge of perusing.
On to Angel, I can't believe noone has mentioned the "Frankenstein" remark made to Angel when he is telling the werewolf girl that he is a monster. I loved how he rubbed his forehead. I think Spike and his Captain Forehead remarks are getting to our beloved leader. I must say, I am getting a happy so far this season. I hope they keep up the good work, judging by the previews for tonights episode, it appears that ME will be.
Nan, your reviews are by far the best. I look forward to your thoughts every week.
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Post by Len on Oct 22, 2003 9:45:45 GMT -5
OK..I'm almost a week late, but thanks to a friend, I finally saw it. Interesting review - but I think I'm going to take issue with it. (which is usual for me as I love to play Devil's Advocate (although in this case, it's actually ANGEL's Advocate :^).
In a nutshell: While things DO fall apart, I'm not quite sure the centre isn't holding.
Let me start from the beginning: Joss doesn't do the obvious. Watching 11+ years of Buffy/Angelverse shows - he has a penchant for upsetting expectations. When I heard that Angel & Co. were taking over W&H, the obvious thought that came to mind was: siigh...let's see how this will go: "They accept, even though it's a clear trap, thinking that they won't be tempted into evil, they ARE tempted into evil - which grows out of escalating grey to black areas - they realize they've become evil - ultimately their innate goodness triumphs and they reject evil. By the end of the year, they turn the tables on Evil, score a major victory, and quit (or destroy) W&H (which, of course, can never REALLY be destroyed b/c without evil, we'd all be Angels :^)" Nan's review fits right in with this prediction.
So is that going to happen? Am I soo smart I can predict the whole season ahead of time? I think not. And I think an alternative reading of "Unleashed" is possible- one which takes us away from the expected storyline .
Rather than it being a harbinger of the destruction of the Fang Gang, I think it can be seen as an affirmation of their core values. As Nan points out, the episode starts with the strained dinner between the Gang - complete with anti-listening devices and accusations against Gunn. Then we get the central story - Nina - a woman who is becoming a monster - a werewolf. Is her life over? Is she doomed to destruction and the loss of a "normal life"? She thinks so. Angel thinks not. Angel compares his life to hers - shows her how he's made a life for himself - how he's gathered friends together in a common goal - how they've become his family. And in doing so, he states the renewed center of this show: Angel IS about family - about the helpless, the beaten, the downtrodden gathering together as a family - relying upon each other in a harsh world. Each of the Fang Gang has its scars and burdens - but despite it all, they are hanging in there - together. Nina gets the point - and by the end of the episode she's ready to return to HER family.
Back to the Fang Gang. Nan IS correct that Spike's dilemma has meaning - and she hits on a valid point - to abandon Spike would be evidence that the Fang Gang is losing their mission. But by the end of the episode, they've EMBRACED Spike! Fred, who initially won't take him seriously and brushes him off, promises Spike that she WILL save him (not that she'd try - but that she'd succeed). Fred's reversal is symbolic of the return back to core values for the Fang Gang. And to bring the point home, the episode ends the way it began - with the Gang ordering food again. This time it's done with gusto - the Gang is lighthearted and joking - they order "the usual" - a sign that they are back to doing things the way they used to be done - together - as a family. I think this holds together with Joss' comments that the season will hearken back to the first season - be more episodic - and avoid the darkness that characterized last season.
Of course I could be totally wrong (but that's the whole fun of watching the durn thing! :^)
Len
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