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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 22, 2003 14:13:45 GMT -5
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 22, 2003 14:17:33 GMT -5
If you go down to the bottom, on the right, there's a box that says Forum Jump. Open that up, and there's the topic "General Board Help and FAQ." Switching to that (by clicking on it) and then reading it may give answers to some of your questions. You'll notice that one of the "forums" is "Main." The highest numbered thread there, always at the top, is the current general discussion thread where most of the talk happens and where we hang out most of the time. Drop in there to say HI!
And N'ubies, when you're trying to post ("post"="reply"), notice that you have a preview button in the middle. If you want to check that a quote (or anything else) is coming out right, hit preview and it will show you how what you've keyboarded will display and still allow you to make changes/corrections before you actually post it. [/color]
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Post by makd on Oct 24, 2003 1:18:12 GMT -5
Great review, as always! I look forward to your reviews so much; they really add to my enjoyment of each episode.
Noticed something for the first time - guess I had to see it written down someplace:
"To the charge that Spike has charmed her into doing this, Fred retorts that although she’s quite aware of Spike’s charming ways and attributes, “…what do you think I am: stupid? I know he’s been playing me with the looks and the smiles, but I’m not some idiot schoolgirl with a crush!”
hmm... Does that resonate with Angel because he might think about a certain 16-year old in SunnyD and, oh, HIMSELF?
Ahhh. great script, great show, and yes, once again: great review.
thanks
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 24, 2003 3:06:28 GMT -5
A great review of a great episode. We are so spoiled here, to have two reviews per episode!
I don't however, agree that Spike's prior slippage into hell was orchestrated by an agency independant of Pavayn. I don't recall anything being said to clarify it during the episode...Unless the Senior Partners are doing it to get rid of Spike.
I think that the Senior Partners probably knew about Pavayn's activities and thought he fulfilled a useful function.
GAIL
[Editor's note: we ended up with two threads for this review; I moved this from the other before deleting it. --Nan]
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 24, 2003 7:45:47 GMT -5
Great review, as always! I look forward to your reviews so much; they really add to my enjoyment of each episode. Noticed something for the first time - guess I had to see it written down someplace: "To the charge that Spike has charmed her into doing this, Fred retorts that although she’s quite aware of Spike’s charming ways and attributes, “…what do you think I am: stupid? I know he’s been playing me with the looks and the smiles, but I’m not some idiot schoolgirl with a crush!” hmm... Does that resonate with Angel because he might think about a certain 16-year old in SunnyD and, oh, HIMSELF? Ahhh. great script, great show, and yes, once again: great review. thanks Definitely, makd - any time I hear that word - "schoolgirl" - I think of Buffy and her time with Angel. I don't think it is coincidentally mentioned here, in a discussion which includes mention of Buffy. Good catch. NAN - Another great review! Your blanket acknowledgment worked just fine at the end, by the way. One comment on your ending paragraph sentence: Spike warns that Pavayne must not be killed: then they’d never get rid of him. Instead, he’s imprisoned in a specially prepared “coffin” in the bowels of W & H. Angel informs him that “You get to live forever. Unable to move, to touch, or to feel...or to affect anything in the world around you. But don't worry: I had 'em give you a window." I suspect this has everything to do with the way Angel handles his "Angelus" - by walling him off. What Angel says to Pavayne, that you have quoted above - it must be very much the way Angelus feels, trapped inside Angel. I think he (Angelus) has said as much. That Spike is the one telling Angel -"don't kill him, you'll never control him that way" (paraphrasing) - is verrrry interesting. Spike: The guy who's made friends with his own demon, who controls him by owning him and exposing him to the light. I mean - look at the picture - a remorseless, sadistic killer, trapped in Angel's basement, by Angel's choice. Really? You don't say. This is Angel's answer - to wall Pavayne off for eternity; Pavayne is in Angel's "can't be saved" club. Like Angelus. Like Angel - because what he does to Angelus, he does to himself. What he did to Pavayne, he did to himself. What you do to others, you do to yourself. So Angel's answer is to wall it off: Pretend it's not there except for those times when you're all alone and you can't stop thinking about that guy in basement. What you've done to him. I wonder if that is really the best answer - I mean, it must feel like hell.
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 24, 2003 9:47:18 GMT -5
Still reading the review but had to ask a question it raised in my head. Why can't Angel have Spike sing for Lorne if he truly questions his motives? I mean, I think I know the answer (that Angel doesn't truly question them) but, they all jumped on the idea of Lorne assessing all the W&H employees during the first ep. Why don't they use that resource very much anymore? PS - Forgot to add that the review is great, as usual.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 24, 2003 9:47:29 GMT -5
Definitely, makd - any time I hear that word - "schoolgirl" - I think of Buffy and her time with Angel. I don't think it is coincidentally mentioned here, in a discussion which includes mention of Buffy. Good catch. NAN - Another great review! Your blanket acknowledgment worked just fine at the end, by the way. One comment on your ending paragraph sentence: Spike warns that Pavayne must not be killed: then they’d never get rid of him. Instead, he’s imprisoned in a specially prepared “coffin” in the bowels of W & H. Angel informs him that “You get to live forever. Unable to move, to touch, or to feel...or to affect anything in the world around you. But don't worry: I had 'em give you a window." I suspect this has everything to do with the way Angel handles his "Angelus" - by walling him off. What Angel says to Pavayne, that you have quoted above - it must be very much the way Angelus feels, trapped inside Angel. I think he (Angelus) has said as much. That Spike is the one telling Angel -"don't kill him, you'll never control him that way" (paraphrasing) - is verrrry interesting. Spike: The guy who's made friends with his own demon, who controls him by owning him and exposing him to the light. I mean - look at the picture - a remorseless, sadistic killer, trapped in Angel's basement, by Angel's choice. Really? You don't say. This is Angel's answer - to wall Pavayne off for eternity; Pavayne is in Angel's "can't be saved" club. Like Angelus. Like Angel - because what he does to Angelus, he does to himself. What he did to Pavayne, he did to himself. What you do to others, you do to yourself. So Angel's answer is to wall it off: Pretend it's not there except for those times when you're all alone and you can't stop thinking about that guy in basement. What you've done to him. I wonder if that is really the best answer - I mean, it must feel like hell. Spring, you took the image one step beyond where I had seen. But once I saw, it was clear and beyond disputation. You're right, and put it well. As has been said, "Right with you, Scooter!" (Of course I will fall for anything in praise of scooters.) [/color]
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Post by Sue on Oct 24, 2003 11:03:38 GMT -5
Still reading the review but had to ask a question it raised in my head. Why can't Angel have Spike sing for Lorne if he truly questions his motives? I mean, I think I know the answer (that Angel doesn't truly question them) but, they all jumped on the idea of Lorne assessing all the W&H employees during the first ep. Why don't they use that resource very much anymore? PS - Forgot to add that the review is great, as usual. Sorry, I've GOT to say that I asked this question yesterday! I think it was on the 4 pages that got eaten and I forgot to repost it. So --great question, Rae.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 24, 2003 11:10:11 GMT -5
Sorry, I've GOT to say that I asked this question yesterday! I think it was on the 4 pages that got eaten and I forgot to repost it. So --great question, Rae. I agree with Rae's answer - Angel doesn't really question Spike's motives. You can tell in the way they talk to each other on the couch - Angel knows that Spike has changed. Also - he saw Spike give up a chance to be corporeal for no other reason than to fight evil, when he helped defeat the necromancer. Angel trusted Spike NOT to take over his body while he (Angel) was totally helpless. He doesn't really question Spike's motives - how could he, after that? Also - would Lorne's talents even really work on the non-corporeal, barely-there Spike?
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 24, 2003 12:10:07 GMT -5
Another fine review, Nan. It's given me lots more to think about; I may even watch the episode again.
Fred as the conscience of the FG - nice. I hadn't thought that far, but it's just right.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 24, 2003 12:40:57 GMT -5
Still reading the review but had to ask a question it raised in my head. Why can't Angel have Spike sing for Lorne if he truly questions his motives? I mean, I think I know the answer (that Angel doesn't truly question them) but, they all jumped on the idea of Lorne assessing all the W&H employees during the first ep. Why don't they use that resource very much anymore? PS - Forgot to add that the review is great, as usual. For all I can tell, Rae, there's no reason Lorne couldn't "read" Spike. But I don't think Spike yet knows about Lorne's capabilities in that direction, and nobody else has suggested it...in part because they all seem to assume Spike's not there for the long haul, and his present focus is entirely on saving his own neck. So what in that would prompt them to suggest Lorne screen him?
As you intimated and Spring said, above, Angel isn't really in doubt of Spike's motives--he just dislikes him for a wide variety of reasons, none of which would be solved by Lorne's intervention. And the rest don't really care much about Spike's motives, the one way or the other.
Except for that, I know of no reasons Lorne's gift wouldn't work. [/color]
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on Oct 24, 2003 12:55:01 GMT -5
Great analysis! I love how you go through the story from beginning to end and then highlight certain places and dialogue.
I also think Fred is the conscience for them all...
One point I think I disagree on (and when I tried to go back and rewatch it to see if I still saw it that way, I discovered that SOMEONE already taped over the ep with CSI! grrr) was:
I totally walked away from the episode thinking that Pavayne had been manipulating Spike in ALL ways, even the slipping into Hell. I left the ep thinking that now Spike is simply waiting in limbo, for what, we don't yet know. ~Just my interpretation of the scene where Spike realizes what's happening.
Yes, I do think this series will explode. I thought it was a very intense ep but not despairing like last week. I really think Angel and Spike are reaching some sort of truce. Starting to maybe respect each others situation, even if only a little!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 24, 2003 13:04:42 GMT -5
Great analysis! I love how you go through the story from beginning to end and then highlight certain places and dialogue. I also think Fred is the conscience for them all... One point I think I disagree on (and when I tried to go back and rewatch it to see if I still saw it that way, I discovered that SOMEONE already taped over the ep with CSI! grrr) was: I totally walked away from the episode thinking that Pavayne had been manipulating Spike in ALL ways, even the slipping into Hell. I left the ep thinking that now Spike is simply waiting in limbo, for what, we don't yet know. ~Just my interpretation of the scene where Spike realizes what's happening. Yes, I do think this series will explode. I thought it was a very intense ep but not despairing like last week. I really think Angel and Spike are reaching some sort of truce. Starting to maybe respect each others situation, even if only a little! Hi, TKent. Glad to see you back. Re the matter of to what degree Pavayne is responsible for Spike's predicament as shown from 5.2 onward--I don't know. I simply noticed that the effects on Spike in this episode--that he disappears from others' perspective but is still there from his own, for instance, and that he's seeing things others can't--are quite different from the apparent effects on Spike we have seen before. So I can't attribute them to Pavayne without further evidence. THIS ep's effects are certainly due to Pavayne's manipulations; but as yet I see no evidence that the others were. I'm keeping an open mind on the matter and will revise my vewpoint if and as I see evidence for some other theory. [/color]
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Post by John G on Oct 24, 2003 13:25:03 GMT -5
Nan, I haven't even finished watching the ep, but now, not only do I feel like I have, I feel like I got it! Very cool! Awesome writing!
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 24, 2003 13:33:01 GMT -5
Hi, TKent. Glad to see you back. Re the matter of to what degree Pavayne is responsible for Spike's predicament as shown from 5.2 onward--I don't know. I simply noticed that the effects on Spike in this episode--that he disappears from others' perspective but is still there from his own, for instance, and that he's seeing things others can't--are quite different from the apparent effects on Spike we have seen before. So I can't attribute them to Pavayne without further evidence. THIS ep's effects are certainly due to Pavayne's manipulations; but as yet I see no evidence that the others were. I'm keeping an open mind on the matter and will revise my vewpoint if and as I see evidence for some other theory. [/color] [/quote] You are right, Nan - it's not made completely clear. But, for what it is worth, I did get the feeling, from events in this ep, that Spike will now stop blinking in and out - that the blinking in and out was due entirely to the fact that Spike was being pulled into hell, and that the immediate being"pulled into hell" thing was due completely to Pavayne.
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