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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 26, 2003 11:50:19 GMT -5
Yeah, Sue. What you said. (Can you tell I'm fogged with the time change? At least that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!)
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Post by Karen on Oct 26, 2003 17:12:20 GMT -5
Just popping in to say hell of a good review, Nan!
Everyone's comments and insights have been great too! I don't have much to add in the way of wit, insight (or money). There are a lot of questions that need to be answered.
I'd like to know if Spike will be in danger of being sucked into hell now that Pavayne is gone, too. What about our observations that everytime he got upset or was yelled at, he disappeared? Was that all Pavayne's doing? I think Pavayne was an opportunist.
Spike seemed pretty resigned to his situation at the end, or maybe just worn out from all the fighting. Who knows what else might be in Spike's dimension that will tug at him.
Angel is trying to serve 2 masters, it seems. His conscience and W&H. The scene where Fred called him in on the carpet about his helping Spike - because he needs help, particularly showed his dilemma. It seemed to me that Eve was trying to put a wedge between Angel and Co. by bringing up Fred's overspending. Angel tries to be stern about it, but in the end trusts Fred's judgement. Hopefully, he'll continue to do this.
I don't like seeing Angel behind a desk or Spike in the 8th dimension, or wherever.
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Post by Nickim on Oct 26, 2003 22:43:01 GMT -5
Another great review, Nan.
I'm in the Spike's no longer being pulled into Hell camp. He had disappeared completely, but then could be seen and heard as soon as Pavayne was captured and had no power over Spike anymore.
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Post by LadyDi on Oct 26, 2003 23:13:56 GMT -5
Another great review, Nan. I'm in the Spike's not going to Hell camp. He had disappeared completely, but then could be seen and heard as soon as Pavayne was captured and had no power over Spike anymore. Postin' [glow=red,2,300]me, too[/glow] like some brain-dead AOLer ;D Just watched the ep. again (3rd time *sigh*) and Spike seemed a lot less worried by the end of it. Of course, his "Gotta do this" in Chosen tells me he was thinkin' his sacrifice was the grand gesture (Spike: King of the Grand Gesture) that would absolve him of past sins. Random thought: Would soul be tainted by association w/demon? Still feel responsible, even tho' demon did all the dirty work? You remember everything, remember enjoying it. Glah! No thanks.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 26, 2003 23:52:23 GMT -5
Postin' [glow=red,2,300]me, too[/glow] like some brain-dead AOLer ;D Just watched the ep. again (3rd time *sigh*) and Spike seemed a lot less worried by the end of it. Of course, his "Gotta do this" in Chosen tells me he was thinkin' his sacrifice was the grand gesture (Spike: King of the Grand Gesture) that would absolve him of past sins. Random thought: Would soul be tainted by association w/demon? Still feel responsible, even tho' demon did all the dirty work? You remember everything, remember enjoying it. Glah! No thanks. I suspect the "remembering enjoying it" would be the tricky part. The soul might not be tainted, but the emotions likely are.... [/color]
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Post by Karen on Oct 27, 2003 8:55:03 GMT -5
I suspect the "remembering enjoying it" would be the tricky part. The soul might not be tainted, but the emotions likely are.... [/color] [/quote] Kind of hard to separate the two, emotions and the soul. Is the soul like the brain? A separate entity, or is it the result of our experiences and emotions? Angel feels that they are one and the same. Spike doesn't, and he doesn't feel guilty from what he did unsouled. I wonder if he'll fell guilty for any "gray" areas he might step into now that he has a soul. In "Beneath You", Spike beats the crap out of Anya to try and shut her up because she saw his soul. Not a very righteous thing for him to do. He was pretty selfish in his reasoning, and Buffy saw that, even though she didn't know the why, yet.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 27, 2003 9:27:01 GMT -5
Kind of hard to separate the two, emotions and the soul. Is the soul like the brain? A separate entity, or is it the result of our experiences and emotions? Angel feels that they are one and the same. Spike doesn't, and he doesn't feel guilty from what he did unsouled. I wonder if he'll fell guilty for any "gray" areas he might step into now that he has a soul. In "Beneath You", Spike beats the crap out of Anya to try and shut her up because she saw his soul. Not a very righteous thing for him to do. He was pretty selfish in his reasoning, and Buffy saw that, even though she didn't know the why, yet. I don't understand the notion that "Angel feels guilty" for what he did without his soul, and "Spike doesn't." This doesn't seem to me to be the message we get at all. I ony saw a few AtS eps last season, but one I did see was the one where Willow came to town, and Angel got his soul back. I can't remember if it was that ep or the next one, but Angel made it very clear that he separates himself from Angelus, and he does not blame himself for Angelus acts. At nearly the same time, we have Spike, in Buffy's basement, refusing to accept the idea that it "wasn't him" who "waited for those girls." If anything, we see Angel doing more "separating himself" and not blaming himself. It isn't that either one feels more or less guilty; it's about how they are dealing/have dealt with that guilt. They both feel overwhelmingly guilty for their acts. We see plenty of evidence of that, regardless of what they say. But Spike, fairly quickly, faces the guilt and acknowledges it and his demon; he's accepted his guilt and his demon and he is moving forward. Angel is stuck in his "we are completely separate" mode. He walls off "Angelus" - and "Angelus" and the accompanying guilt he cannot face or shake is eating him alive. It's what he's really being "digested" by. It's Pavayne in the basement. It's what I think Spike is going to be doing for Angel - helping him with that integration. An aside: Spike beating the crap out of Anya was not a very righteous thing to do, but I thought it was due totally to desperation (desperately trying to shut her up, create a distraction, and mislead Buffy) - and also to being in a "barely held together" state. Not that it was OK behavior, it wasn't. I just didn't think it spoke to Spike's guilt. We see in the church later that Spike is filled with guilt.
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Post by Karen on Oct 27, 2003 10:18:25 GMT -5
I don't understand the notion that "Angel feels guilty" for what he did without his soul, and "Spike doesn't." This doesn't seem to me to be the message we get at all. I ony saw a few AtS eps last season, but one I did see was the one where Willow came to town, and Angel got his soul back. I can't remember if it was that ep or the next one, but Angel made it very clear that he separates himself from Angelus, and he does not blame himself for Angelus acts. At nearly the same time, we have Spike, in Buffy's basement, refusing to accept the idea that it "wasn't him" who "waited for those girls." If anything, we see Angel doing more "separating himself" and not blaming himself. It isn't that either one feels more or less guilty; it's about how they are dealing/have dealt with that guilt. They both feel overwhelmingly guilty for their acts. We see plenty of evidence of that, regardless of what they say. But Spike, fairly quickly, faces the guilt and acknowledges it and his demon; he's accepted his guilt and his demon and he is moving forward. Angel is stuck in his "we are completely separate" mode. He walls off "Angelus" - and "Angelus" and the accompanying guilt he cannot face or shake is eating him alive. It's what he's really being "digested" by. It's Pavayne in the basement. It's what I think Spike is going to be doing for Angel - helping him with that integration. An aside: Spike beating the crap out of Anya was not a very righteous thing to do, but I thought it was due totally to desperation (desperately trying to shut her up, create a distraction, and mislead Buffy) - and also to being in a "barely held together" state. Not that it was OK behavior, it wasn't. I just didn't think it spoke to Spike's guilt. We see in the church later that Spike is filled with guilt. I agree Spring. Spike does feel guilty and was very distraught, and it was understandable what he did to Anya. Maybe it's the whole Angel fighting for redemption (even though we now see that even though he fights, he doesn't feel he can atone) and Spike not feeling he has to atone that has me confused.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 27, 2003 10:40:22 GMT -5
I agree Spring. Spike does feel guilty and was very distraught, and it was understandable what he did to Anya. Maybe it's the whole Angel fighting for redemption (even though we now see that even though he fights, he doesn't feel he can atone) and Spike not feeling he has to atone that has me confused. I actually don't think either boys are doing good for atonement's sake. I think they both feel that they have to do good for good's sake. The smartest thing for them to do is to take a "virtue is its own reward" attitude, and then take whatever lumps they must take, when the time comes. Angel started out, possibly, looking to atone, but I thought he made it clear in this episode that he is not counting on ever being able to make-up for the past in any meaningful way. Spike knows better as well. Personally, I think that's the only possible road to real atonement/redemption for either one of them: Doing right because it's the right thing to do - not as a means to seek atonement. It's the only shot they have. It's the best thing they can do all around. Angel is having a harder time with everything - past guilt, the idea of letting go of possible future redemption and reward, etc . . . but I don't think this is about feeling more guilty and wanting to atone more. I think has to do with Angel's more controlling personality, the understandable effects of the curse (being hyper-aware of its threats), and that huge separation he has forced between Angel/Angelus.
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Post by Len on Oct 27, 2003 14:43:11 GMT -5
OK..I'm back...no Yankee cracks please! Haven't read all that's been posted, but with respect to Nan's review (without seeing any of the followup)..... Good point! Did we EVER get an explanation to that? I always chocked it up to the guilt/shock inflicted on the human soul after it's reinserted into the body it once commanded which has been comandeered by a vamp for evil. We saw similar confusion with Angel when he's been re-ensouled. This is quite a turn-about for Angel - isn't it the first time we've seen this resignation on his part? What's confusing to me about this is WHY Angel thinks he's damned. It's ALSO what's so fascinating about this. Even under our own laws, Angel would not be responsible given that the murders occurred when he was not in control of his body. I've always assumed that Angel still feels some kind of guilt over the actions of Angelus because he has all of Angelus' memories - so to him, it FEELS like he did the actual killings. But intellectually, of course he didn't - Angelus did. Similarly, you'd think if anyone who's been in Angel's position, would forgive SPIKE and not think HE'S going to hell. Has the re-souled Spike done ANY evil acts? The closest I can think of is his THREAT of Robin Wood last season. I suspect the true reason Angel can't forgive Spike, is that he can't forgive himself. Which brings us back to the question of WHY can't he forgive himself for something he's not responisble for? Notice too Spike's use of the name "Liam." It's clear that the re-souled Spike is thinking more an more of himself as William rather than Spike (and, correspondingly Angel as Liam, rather than Angelus). One question that is begged by all this is why Spike with William's soul isn't more different from Spike. Angelus/Angel differ starkly - but Spike/Spike-William do not (notice too that Spike-William retains the name "Spike" while Angelus-Liam calls himself Angel). Why? Is it because the vampire demon Angelus is just such a greater bastard than the vampire demon Spike? And, of course, this continues the evolution of Angel-as-a-bastard. He has no remorse or forgiveness for those he feels do not merit it. Perhap's it's this episode's revelation that Angel feels he is irrefutably damned to hell in the long run which is fueling this evolution. But where did this view come from? I don't think we have enough information to piece this together yet, have we? Hopefully, this will be explored in the weeks to come. Can he? I forget - have we seen him vampy this season yet? This struck me as odd - was she just being careless in her language? Did she forget? Or what? I thought it might also have been a nod to a similar scene in the movie "A Beautiful Mind" I wonder if, with Spike in the ghost world, we'll hear from Dennis who could also move things around in the living world. [I'm spoiler free, so if you KNOW the answer to this, SHHHH! ). I forget, is he still in Cordy's old apartment as far as we know?
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Post by Len on Oct 27, 2003 14:54:34 GMT -5
I don't understand the notion that "Angel feels guilty" for what he did without his soul, and "Spike doesn't." This doesn't seem to me to be the message we get at all. I ony saw a few AtS eps last season, but one I did see was the one where Willow came to town, and Angel got his soul back. I can't remember if it was that ep or the next one, but Angel made it very clear that he separates himself from Angelus, and he does not blame himself for Angelus acts. It's been pretty clear from day 1 that Angel DOES accept guilt over Angelus' actions. Otherwise, why would he be fighting for redemption? That's been one of his primary motivators since the start. Good point, HOWEVER, Spike comes to terms with this guilt in the "Lies My Parents Told Me" - he's over it (apparently). Interesting view - I think you're right - EXCEPT - I don't quite agree that the solution is integration of Angel and Angelus. I think it's realization that Angelus did it, and Angel didn't.
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Post by Sue on Oct 27, 2003 15:37:42 GMT -5
Good point! Did we EVER get an explanation to that? I always chocked it up to the guilt/shock inflicted on the human soul after it's reinserted into the body it once commanded which has been comandeered by a vamp for evil. We saw similar confusion with Angel when he's been re-ensouled. Len, Welcome back. 1. Fraid none of us cared about the Yanks enough to comment. There has been a bit of football discussion on the main thread tho. I'm eager to see what effect ending the World Series games will have on Wed. nite ratings! 2. Well, looks like you got the hang of "serial quoting". 3. However, when I quote you Nan's original quotes don't show up. What I quoted above was your response to her mentioning Spike hallucinating dead people in the basement and the parallel to season 7. I personally think his craziness was not so much soul related and more a direct result of being played by The First. Seems like this would also have been when the trigger was set up. 4. As you work your way thru everyone else's comments, you'll find that your thinking on many of the points you made parallels others' thoughts. Feel free to post serially. It's known as "Patti-itis" in honor of the times Patti would get on late at night and work her way thru 10 pages of post replying to them as she went along, creating a long line of "Patti-posts". I'm sure she holds the record for most consecutive posts and you couldn't touch it if you tried.
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Post by Len on Oct 27, 2003 16:11:52 GMT -5
Len, Welcome back. 1. Fraid none of us cared about the Yanks enough to comment. There has been a bit of football discussion on the main thread tho. I'm eager to see what effect ending the World Series games will have on Wed. nite ratings! 2. Well, looks like you got the hang of "serial quoting". Thanks! Is there anyway to prevent that? I think I noticed that last week also. Could be - I think the First's whole "plan" was never really fully explained. I was a bit disappointed by the lack of explanation in the final ep. (especially the Joyce appearances and what the big eye thingie said to Giles & Anya). I appreciate that - actually - seemed like I DID parallel a bunch of the comments with respect to the issue of Angel/Spike's guilt over the acts of their soulless predecessors.
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 27, 2003 16:58:43 GMT -5
Which brings us back to the question of WHY can't he forgive himself for something he's not responisble for? Can he? I forget - have we seen him vampy this season yet? Hi Len, Nice to have you back from Baseball-land.... Two things. 1) Angel feeling guilty. If I had to guess, I'd say that he is feeling guilty about Connor at the moment which could be why he is feeling has to suffer. Not that he didn't make the right decision (actually, I do have issues with his 'decision' but let's not get into that) but I'm sure he's not 100% sure he did. I think there are a lot of emotions that could be lending themselves to his feelings of guilt and low self-esteem at the moment which could be why he's on the "I belong in Hell" kick. 2) We saw Spike go vamp-face in the second episode, when he first appeared and rushed angel. I can't remember if we saw him do it again but there are promo pics from this season (from those first couple of eps) that show him in vamp face.
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Post by Len on Oct 27, 2003 17:13:07 GMT -5
1) Angel feeling guilty. If I had to guess, I'd say that he is feeling guilty about Connor at the moment which could be why he is feeling has to suffer. Not that he didn't make the right decision (actually, I do have issues with his 'decision' but let's not get into that) but I'm sure he's not 100% sure he did. I think there are a lot of emotions that could be lending themselves to his feelings of guilt and low self-esteem at the moment which could be why he's on the "I belong in Hell" kick. Oh..I totally agree that the events of last season fuel Angel's guilt trip. But I also think the whole idea of Angel striving for redemption has been one of the central themes of the show since season 1. And as I pointed out above, I think his need for redemption is based more in illogical psychological terms than in rationality. I guess that sounds familiar (as to the promo pics, I just assumed they referred to Spike later in the season when he finally becomes corporeal) (note: not a spoiler, just my assumption based on How TV Works).
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