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Post by ldelrossi on Oct 29, 2003 7:56:16 GMT -5
WELCOME WDREAMER! ;D
I had forgotten that comment on the rooftop with Gunn. It may well show his fatalism, but it could also mean "What else are we gonna do, let evil continue? We have to fight it even if we think we can never totally defeat it."
He expresses pretty much the same idea later to Connor about the world "being cruel" and "that's why there's us, champions" and "make the world be as it should be." Sorry - don't have the exact quote.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 29, 2003 8:36:30 GMT -5
WELCOME WDREAMER! ;D I had forgotten that comment on the rooftop with Gunn. It may well show his fatalism, but it could also mean "What else are we gonna do, let evil continue? We have to fight it even if we think we can never totally defeat it." He expresses pretty much the same idea later to Connor about the world "being cruel" and "that's why there's us, champions" and "make the world be as it should be." Sorry - don't have the exact quote. Another welcome Wdreamer! And I add my encouragement to you to post away as you see fit! I do agree that the "fatalism" is not all that new for Angel. I'm not sure I would call it fatalism either, Lori . . . Angel may not believe he can control his ultimate fate, but he definitely believes he can (and should) control his environment, and he acts accordingly. When Angel talks about making the world as it "should be," he is talking about his own particular vision for the world. Angel is never going to give up trying to paint the world according to that vision - whether he's Angel or whether he's Angelus. It's only the vision that changes, not the underlying desire for impact and control. And that desire seems to be independent of the promise of reward.
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Post by Len on Oct 29, 2003 9:51:23 GMT -5
welcome! (I'm just a week or so removed from being one myself! Nice observation. It also brings to mind something that sort of bothers me about the apparent direction of the season so far - it's the feeling that we've seen this all before. The major thematic arc of Season 2 was Angel's losing his direction with respect to his mission and then regaining it. Angel goes through several levels of despair - starting with his inability to save Darla. This shifts his focus from saving the downtrodden to punnishing the wicked. It's seen most chillingly in the pivotal scene where he allows a slew of W&H lawyers to be devoured in a wine cellar by Darla & Drusilla. This launches Angel on an offensive campaign against W&H. Ultimately he ends up in an elevator with the dead Holland Mason (I think that was his name - the former head of W&H?) in a chilling scene in which he's shown that evil will always be present on earth - that it's been there from day 1 - and that it's all around us - and that without evil, we'd all be...angels. Angel is broken by this revelation and hits rock bottom as he reaches out sexually to Darla, desperately trying to feel something, and fully willing to be lost and numbed in the void of Angelus which he expected to occur upon consumation with Darla. Much to his surprise, he doesn't unleash Angelus, because far from a moment of bliss, he sees he's been acting out of full despair. This epiphany (as the ep is called), brings Angel to realize that even if we DO live in a world where nothing matters, then the smallest kind deed means everything. It was a terrific sequence - IMHO, the most exciting and well done arc in the entire series to date. Angel is rededicated to the mission - and not from a selfish standpoint of trying to attain humanity through the reward of Shanshuing - but for the sake of doing good itself - finding meaning from the very act of doing good. Great stuff. So what do we have this season? Angel falling into despair. Angel assuming he's damned. No hope. Angel focusing on saving those he deems worthy while ignoring those who he thinks are not - willing to let them die (ex. SWAT team leader, Werewolf eating society scientist accomplice, Pavayne). Not quite the season 2 focus of punishing the wicked rather than saving the downtrodden - but not that far off either. And once again he's fueled by apparent despair. I REALLY hope we're not going to get just a rerun of Season 2 with slight variations. I hope the writers will be able to tie together what's happening to Angel now with what's happened before in a logical progression. I HOPE this will tie in with what Angel went through with the birth and "death" of Conner (death in the sense that he's lost him as a son), and in the "victory" won over Jasmine. Still early in the season - the stories HAVE been well written - I'm eagerly waiting to see what happens next. But I do admit to some trepidation that it WILL tie together (especially in light of the way last season was a bit of a thematic mess). [ok..semi-rant over ]
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Post by Sue on Oct 29, 2003 10:34:13 GMT -5
It also brings to mind something that sort of bothers me about the apparent direction of the season so far - it's the feeling that we've seen this all before. The major thematic arc of Season 2 was Angel's losing his direction with respect to his mission and then regaining it. So what do we have this season? Angel falling into despair. Angel assuming he's damned. No hope. Angel focusing on saving those he deems worthy while ignoring those who he thinks are not - willing to let them die (ex. SWAT team leader, Werewolf eating society scientist accomplice, Pavayne). Not quite the season 2 focus of punishing the wicked rather than saving the downtrodden - but not that far off either. And once again he's fueled by apparent despair. I REALLY hope we're not going to get just a rerun of Season 2 with slight variations. I hope the writers will be able to tie together what's happening to Angel now with what's happened before in a logical progression. I HOPE this will tie in with what Angel went through with the birth and "death" of Conner (death in the sense that he's lost him as a son), and in the "victory" won over Jasmine. Still early in the season - the stories HAVE been well written - I'm eagerly waiting to see what happens next. But I do admit to some trepidation that it WILL tie together (especially in light of the way last season was a bit of a thematic mess). [ok..semi-rant over ] I'm not nearly as familiar with the Angel backstory, but it wouldn't necessarily bother me to have a theme repeated. Riley made a comment to Buffy once about the "wheel of life"--sometimes you are on top--other times... I think patterns and even learning experiences repeat themselves many times over in our lives. Don't you find yourself (maybe you aren't old enough yet) re-learning lessons you thought you already knew--about relationships, family, work, etc? The pattern of falling away from friends into "aloneness" and then finding she was stronger with them than without was repeated several times on Buffy. I suspect Joss has discovered that very few lessons are learned after only one experience. So, I wouldn't be surprised, or put off, if Angel needs to re-learn something which we, from the outside looking in, think he should already know.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 29, 2003 11:20:56 GMT -5
I'm not nearly as familiar with the Angel backstory, but it wouldn't necessarily bother me to have a theme repeated. Riley made a comment to Buffy once about the "wheel of life"--sometimes you are on top--other times... I think patterns and even learning experiences repeat themselves many times over in our lives. Don't you find yourself (maybe you aren't old enough yet) re-learning lessons you thought you already knew--about relationships, family, work, etc? The pattern of falling away from friends into "aloneness" and then finding she was stronger with them than without was repeated several times on Buffy. I suspect Joss has discovered that very few lessons are learned after only one experience. So, I wouldn't be surprised, or put off, if Angel needs to re-learn something which we, from the outside looking in, think he should already know. Yes - I remember posters on ScoopMe complaining about Buffy or other characters making the same kind of mistakes over and over, or needing to learn a lesson over and over. How many times was Buffy going to realize her affair with Spike was bad news before she finally ended it? How come we saw Willow realize she shouldn't use magic so much, but then she goes back to it anyhow? Etc. But in fact, that is exactly how human beings behave. It very often takes getting hit over the head DOZENS of times before something gets through. And sometimes, people never really learn, even though they seem to have - surprise, it turns out to be temporary. Things like that got complained about as "inconsistent" - but they weren't. It is very consistent with human nature for human beings to be inconsistent!
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Post by Karen on Oct 29, 2003 11:27:33 GMT -5
I'm not nearly as familiar with the Angel backstory, but it wouldn't necessarily bother me to have a theme repeated. Riley made a comment to Buffy once about the "wheel of life"--sometimes you are on top--other times... I think patterns and even learning experiences repeat themselves many times over in our lives. Don't you find yourself (maybe you aren't old enough yet) re-learning lessons you thought you already knew--about relationships, family, work, etc? The pattern of falling away from friends into "aloneness" and then finding she was stronger with them than without was repeated several times on Buffy. I suspect Joss has discovered that very few lessons are learned after only one experience. So, I wouldn't be surprised, or put off, if Angel needs to re-learn something which we, from the outside looking in, think he should already know.I wouldn't be surprised if Spike will also need to relearn something we think he should already know. We all know what he went through to get his soul, and when he got it, he fought and died saving the world. He's good now, but he's still basically the same person.
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Post by Len on Oct 29, 2003 11:41:08 GMT -5
Yes - I remember posters on ScoopMe complaining about Buffy or other characters making the same kind of mistakes over and over, or needing to learn a lesson over and over. How many times was Buffy going to realize her affair with Spike was bad news before she finally ended it? How come we saw Willow realize she shouldn't use magic so much, but then she goes back to it anyhow? Etc. But in fact, that is exactly how human beings behave. It very often takes getting hit over the head DOZENS of times before something gets through. And sometimes, people never really learn, even though they seem to have - surprise, it turns out to be temporary. Things like that got complained about as "inconsistent" - but they weren't. It is very consistent with human nature for human beings to be inconsistent! Well...I won't dispute that in the real world, people DO have to relearn lessons over and over. But I'm more hesitant to say that AtS is just being "realistic" when or if it recycles an old storyline. Seems to me that where a character has what APPEARS to be a major life changing realization - an epiphany if you will - to have him then "forget" about it sort of cheapens the original episodes - doesn't it? (as as aside, I don't think Buffy's inability to dump Spike during s6 is similar at all - that was the whole point of the storyline - her obsessive attempt to numb herself after the pain of being ripped out of heaven and returned to earth - she was clearly NOT acting normally - and her irrational behavior reflected that). Sure we can have the same storyline again and again and chock it up to "hey - it's just realistic" - but that doesn't necessarily make for good drama. And that's what this show is - a drama - not an attempt to recreate reality. There's a key distinction between a realistic drama and a "reality" show. Now, I'm not saying that that's what's happening here - I only remark on the apparent similarities between the 2 sotryline so far. Frankly, I think Joss & co. are above mere recycling, and I think we WILL get something different. But those are my thoughts to date.
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Post by Karen on Oct 29, 2003 11:47:17 GMT -5
Well...I won't dispute that in the real world, people DO have to relearn lessons over and over. But I'm more hesitant to say that AtS is just being "realistic" when or if it recycles an old storyline. Seems to me that where a character has what APPEARS to be a major life changing realization - an epiphany if you will - to have him then "forget" about it sort of cheapens the original episodes - doesn't it? (as as aside, I don't think Buffy's inability to dump Spike during s6 is similar at all - that was the whole point of the storyline - her obsessive attempt to numb herself after the pain of being ripped out of heaven and returned to earth - she was clearly NOT acting normally - and her irrational behavior reflected that). Sure we can have the same storyline again and again and chock it up to "hey - it's just realistic" - but that doesn't necessarily make for good drama. And that's what this show is - a drama - not an attempt to recreate reality. There's a key distinction between a realistic drama and a "reality" show. Now, I'm not saying that that's what's happening here - I only remark on the apparent similarities between the 2 sotryline so far. Frankly, I think Joss & co. are above mere recycling, and I think we WILL get something different. But those are my thoughts to date. Something about the way Spike in the basement saying - been there, done that (or something similar), makes be believe they won't recycle the same storyline. I know what you mean - we want something "new" to chew on.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 29, 2003 13:25:32 GMT -5
Well...I won't dispute that in the real world, people DO have to relearn lessons over and over. But I'm more hesitant to say that AtS is just being "realistic" when or if it recycles an old storyline. Seems to me that where a character has what APPEARS to be a major life changing realization - an epiphany if you will - to have him then "forget" about it sort of cheapens the original episodes - doesn't it? (as as aside, I don't think Buffy's inability to dump Spike during s6 is similar at all - that was the whole point of the storyline - her obsessive attempt to numb herself after the pain of being ripped out of heaven and returned to earth - she was clearly NOT acting normally - and her irrational behavior reflected that). Sure we can have the same storyline again and again and chock it up to "hey - it's just realistic" - but that doesn't necessarily make for good drama. And that's what this show is - a drama - not an attempt to recreate reality. There's a key distinction between a realistic drama and a "reality" show. Now, I'm not saying that that's what's happening here - I only remark on the apparent similarities between the 2 sotryline so far. Frankly, I think Joss & co. are above mere recycling, and I think we WILL get something different. But those are my thoughts to date. Oh yes - I agree. I don't want "recycling" either, and I think you can cross the line from realistically showing human behavior to boring the viewers silly with repetition. Your post and the following ones just made me think of past postings, and complaints about character "epiphanies" - they seemed to expect perfect consistency afterward. I don't think it is out of line to show some backsliding despite an "epiphany," and I do see that as just plain realistic. Buffy had something of an "epiphany" after Riley's visit and her breakup with Spike - she walks into the sunlight and all that. But in following eps, we see that despite this, she still struggles with feelings for Spike and doesn't seem entirely "out of the woods" in getting re-involved with him. I remember folks complaining about that, but I liked it and found it very believable. Willow seems to have an "epiphany" after her magic-indulgence ends up hurting Dawn very badly. She gives up the magic and breaks off with Amy. But still - when times get tough, she crumbles. So I am OK with that kind of stuff. But that is different than being OK with the kind of recycling you are worrying about. Definitely, even if Joss are going to hit the same or similar theme, I want to see some fresh angles!
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Post by WinterDreamer on Oct 30, 2003 15:44:15 GMT -5
welcome! (I'm just a week or so removed from being one myself! Nice observation. It also brings to mind something that sort of bothers me about the apparent direction of the season so far - it's the feeling that we've seen this all before. The major thematic arc of Season 2 was Angel's losing his direction with respect to his mission and then regaining it. Angel goes through several levels of despair - starting with his inability to save Darla. This shifts his focus from saving the downtrodden to punnishing the wicked. It's seen most chillingly in the pivotal scene where he allows a slew of W&H lawyers to be devoured in a wine cellar by Darla & Drusilla. This launches Angel on an offensive campaign against W&H. Ultimately he ends up in an elevator with the dead Holland Mason (I think that was his name - the former head of W&H?) in a chilling scene in which he's shown that evil will always be present on earth - that it's been there from day 1 - and that it's all around us - and that without evil, we'd all be...angels. Angel is broken by this revelation and hits rock bottom as he reaches out sexually to Darla, desperately trying to feel something, and fully willing to be lost and numbed in the void of Angelus which he expected to occur upon consumation with Darla. Much to his surprise, he doesn't unleash Angelus, because far from a moment of bliss, he sees he's been acting out of full despair. This epiphany (as the ep is called), brings Angel to realize that even if we DO live in a world where nothing matters, then the smallest kind deed means everything. It was a terrific sequence - IMHO, the most exciting and well done arc in the entire series to date. Angel is rededicated to the mission - and not from a selfish standpoint of trying to attain humanity through the reward of Shanshuing - but for the sake of doing good itself - finding meaning from the very act of doing good. Great stuff. [ok..semi-rant over ] Wow, ctowner--this is what I meant. I made a small observation and you took it and ran with it! I guess only time will tell what direction this season will take. I still haven't had time to watch last night's show, and may not until the weekend, but I wanted you all to know that I'm already enjoying my stay here. Also, thank you Vlad for getting my registration in order. I'll be using my usual posting name from now on. --WinterDreamer
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Post by Kerrie on Nov 19, 2003 7:18:13 GMT -5
Another excellent review, Nan. Moreover I think the post-review discussion was equally good. I have nothing to add. Keep up the good work.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 5, 2004 3:04:23 GMT -5
a pavane is a kind of dance this episode Spike learns to dance in his new state its named after a peacock because of the way they dress for it and clothes were certainly significant name game fun It also says its from the 16th and 17th centuries. I couldnt figure any connection for that. dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=pavanethe things people have said about repetition I feel should tie in to the dance theme- I mean you repeat the same moves over with different partners in the old formal dances. Angel doesn't dance the modern way (well the Spike way- violence- yeah, but he doesnt know thats dancing) but maybe he danced the old way? Wants the order, the formality? REpeat, repeat, repeat...
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Post by RAKSHA on Jan 5, 2004 6:11:23 GMT -5
a pavane is a kind of dance this episode Spike learns to dance in his new state its named after a peacock because of the way they dress for it and clothes were certainly significant name game fun It also says its from the 16th and 17th centuries. I couldnt figure any connection for that. dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=pavanethe things people have said about repetition I feel should tie in to the dance theme- I mean you repeat the same moves over with different partners in the old formal dances. Angel doesn't dance the modern way (well the Spike way- violence- yeah, but he doesnt know thats dancing) but maybe he danced the old way? Wants the order, the formality? REpeat, repeat, repeat... Spike has often spoken of Dance as a metaphor for both fighting and having sex, sometimes a combination of the two. The Dance and Effulgence/Fire are key conceptual metaphors for Spike's chaotic, passionate nature.
Oddly, Angel doesn't seem to have such metaphor applied to him and spoken by him. Unless you count the importance of art in his life; from Angelus' twisted desire to design a prolonged campaign of violence as a work of art (i.e. Drusilla, Jenny/Giles, and what he tried to do to Buffy) to Angel's continuing to draw. Hmm; Angel as a frustrated Artist. That speaks to the desire shared by Angel and Angelus to control the lives of those who trust him, to 'design' his life in a pattern of order that he makes...
GAIL
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 5, 2004 7:11:26 GMT -5
Unless you count the importance of art in his life; from Angelus' twisted desire to design a prolonged campaign of violence as a work of art (i.e. Drusilla, Jenny/Giles, and what he tried to do to Buffy) to Angel's continuing to draw. Hmm; Angel as a frustrated Artist. That speaks to the desire shared by Angel and Angelus to control the lives of those who trust him, to 'design' his life in a pattern of order that he makes... Plus when we see him draw it's usually when he's at his most obsessive, whether as Angel or Angelus. Boxes and boxes of pictures of Darla. Focus in on something and try to capture it on paper. Also we've only ever seen him use pencil or charcoal I think, as in black and white. No colors. I've read it said that Spike's the one who lives in shades of grey- not so, he's red. third most noticeable color, above all the others. Life and the living world. Action. Angel seems to prefer black and white and shun the red.
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Post by RAKSHA on Jan 5, 2004 7:20:30 GMT -5
Plus when we see him draw it's usually when he's at his most obsessive, whether as Angel or Angelus. Boxes and boxes of pictures of Darla. Focus in on something and try to capture it on paper. Also we've only ever seen him use pencil or charcoal I think, as in black and white. No colors. I've read it said that Spike's the one who lives in shades of grey- not so, he's red. third most noticeable color, above all the others. Life and the living world. Action. Angel seems to prefer black and white and shun the red. But in BUFFY S7, Spike seemed to wear more black and less red, probably because he had lost most of his wardrobe. Now, on ANGEL, Spike is stuck in the black shirt and pants and duster. I can't wait to see what he'll wear now that he's corporeal again. Hope this doesn't foretell Spike's coming more under Angel's sartorial influence.
Red is for life and passion too. Though didn't Angelus run around in black and red? Dru, Spike and Angel/Angelus seemed to wear black and red a lot in S2.
GAIL
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