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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 28, 2003 7:26:02 GMT -5
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 28, 2003 7:27:03 GMT -5
If you go down to the bottom, on the right, there's a box that says Forum Jump. Open that up, and there's the topic "General Board Help and FAQ." Switching to that (by clicking on it) and then reading it may give answers to some of your questions. You'll notice that one of the "forums" is "Main." The highest numbered thread there, always at the top, is the current general discussion thread where most of the talk happens and where we hang out most of the time. Drop in there to say HI!
And N'ubies, when you're trying to post ("post"="reply"), notice that you have a preview button in the middle. If you want to check that a quote (or anything else) is coming out right, hit preview and it will show you how what you've keyboarded will display and still allow you to make changes/corrections before you actually post it. [/color]
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Post by Sue on Oct 30, 2003 21:43:09 GMT -5
Hey. As the first to respond to the review I wish I had more to say. Nan, your review was great (I'm going to need to get out my thesaurus with 22 reviews on board), as usual. And you've ferreted out what seemed to be the underlying "lesson"-- the FG need to be as on guard about what's on the inside of the bottle as much as what's "out there." There just didn't seem to be a whole lot more layers to delve into. (Although, I'm pretty sure the ensuing discussion may prove me wrong.)
I know "Herc" and the TV guide reviewer both raved about this ep. I'm not seeing it myself. Don't get me wrong, it was very entertaining, I just didn't see anything that made me think it was better than the preceding 4 eps.
(Of course, I'm pretty sure that my personal enjoyment yardstick is directly aligned with the amount of time Spike spends on screen--disclaimer.)
I did enjoy the interaction between all the members of the FG. In spite of this being "Lorne-centric" it seemed to have a decent balance of all the main characters. Lots of Wes, Fred interaction. And, yes, I did notice that he still has a "thing" for Fred. In spite of Connor-related history changing I assume Fred still hooked up with Gunn last year. Gunn appears to be moving on, and Fred clearly is. It's Wes, who never got the chance...still not getting the chance. Nan raises the interesting question as to whether Knox will be anymore than a mid-level background character. (Known well enough to not be immediately sacrificed in some episode as "extra 23", but never really becoming more important? Aka Harmony, season 4.)
Well, I guess I did have something to say--not much of substance, tho. Anxious to read what others have to contribute.
Sue
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 30, 2003 21:49:49 GMT -5
Yet another fine review, Nan. Again, your analysis gives new depth and meaning to the episode.
I hadn't made the Forbidden Planet connection; good catch. The parallels to Angel and his inner demon are inescapable. Monsters from the Id, indeed.
The comment about the ritual sacrifice reminds me of Anya - Thanksgiving as "a ritual sacrifice with pie".
Once again, more to think about. Thank you!
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 30, 2003 22:38:24 GMT -5
Hey. As the first to respond to the review I wish I had more to say. Nan, your review was great (I'm going to need to get out my thesaurus with 22 reviews on board), as usual. And you've ferreted out what seemed to be the underlying "lesson"-- the FG need to be as on guard about what's on the inside of the bottle as much as what's "out there." There just didn't seem to be a whole lot more layers to delve into. (Although, I'm pretty sure the ensuing discussion may prove me wrong.) I know "Herc" and the TV guide reviewer both raved about this ep. I'm not seeing it myself. Don't get me wrong, it was very entertaining, I just didn't see anything that made me think it was better than the preceding 4 eps. (Of course, I'm pretty sure that my personal enjoyment yardstick is directly aligned with the amount of time Spike spends on screen--disclaimer.) I did enjoy the interaction between all the members of the FG. In spite of this being "Lorne-centric" it seemed to have a decent balance of all the main characters. Lots of Wes, Fred interaction. And, yes, I did notice that he still has a "thing" for Fred. In spite of Connor-related history changing I assume Fred still hooked up with Gunn last year. Gunn appears to be moving on, and Fred clearly is. It's Wes, who never got the chance...still not getting the chance. Nan raises the interesting question as to whether Knox will be anymore than a mid-level background character. (Known well enough to not be immediately sacrificed in some episode as "extra 23", but never really becoming more important? Aka Harmony, season 4.) Well, I guess I did have something to say--not much of substance, tho. Anxious to read what others have to contribute. Sue Another great review! I am so enjoying these, as well as the guest reviews.
I disagreed with Nan on one point - that Wesley is back to the pseudo-demon hunter persona we saw him display during his first year on AtvS. Wesley toughened up considerably in Season 2, which was pre-Connor. He ran the company, he was the general making live-or-die decisions in Pylea, he actually had a girlfriend outside of the Fang Gang. The only way they could credibly retcon his character back to Wesley's "Rogue Demon Hunter" days would be to have Angel's obsession with Darla and consequent dark never have happened, which I hope JW doesn't mean to imply.
I miss Wesley & Gunn's friendship, also the pre-Connor friendship between Wes & Angel.
I enjoyed but was not over-awed by this episode. Would rank it third out of the five eps we've seen so far. Definitely better than most of what's on TV this season, though. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by makd on Oct 31, 2003 0:25:15 GMT -5
As usual, Nan, a great review. A hard episode though, since so much of it, seemingly shallow, was actually deeper in meaning.
Lots of questions from the episode:
What does "morale" mean, anyway? In a large comany, how important is morale? Why should companies spend $$ on morale-building endeavors?
How much of ourselves can we bottle? And is what we bottle always of the good? Remember that old song, "Time in a bottle", written by Jim Croce? Lorne's sleep was captured in a high-tech bottle. Angel's been bottling up his emotions. Hey, maybe next party, it'll be "spin the bottle". Wait, Remember what happened on BtVS when they played THAT game?
So many questions...and what happened to the masked man? youall know - the mail deliverer?
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 31, 2003 0:39:15 GMT -5
As usual, Nan, a great review. A hard episode though, since so much of it, seemingly shallow, was actually deeper in meaning. Lots of questions from the episode: What does "morale" mean, anyway? In a large comany, how important is morale? Why should companies spend $$ on morale-building endeavors? How much of ourselves can we bottle? And is what we bottle always of the good? Remember that old song, "Time in a bottle", written by Jim Croce? Lorne's sleep was captured in a high-tech bottle. Angel's been bottling up his emotions. Hey, maybe next party, it'll be "spin the bottle". Wait, Remember what happened on BtVS when they played THAT game? So many questions...and what happened to the masked man? youall know - the mail deliverer? Spin the Bottle was an Angel episode (i.e., AtS, last season). I don't recollect any comparable or similar ep on BtVS except Tabula Rasa, which didn't involve bottles....
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Post by Haunt on Oct 31, 2003 9:27:22 GMT -5
Hey Nan, my first post on this site but I've been checking out your reviews for some time and I just have to say... Bloody brilliant! That first paragraph was quite possibly the best introduction to our beloved Krevlorneswath of the Deathwok Clan that anyone has ever written. To quote my hero, "Good on ya, mate!" I don't really have all that much to contribute at the moment I'm afraid. But I would like to compliment you on being one of the few to actually "get" this episode. I've been shocked at the number of otherwise intelligent, rational people that for some reason were just bored or even disgusted by this one. One person even said she thought having Gunn pee on everything was racist... which I just don't understand, but alright. Anyways, thanks for the wonderful reviews. If you get the chance you should cruise by The Big Bad Board (www.bigbad.net). I'd love to see your contribution to the conversations we have over there. Haunt
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 31, 2003 9:45:13 GMT -5
Hey Nan, my first post on this site but I've been checking out your reviews for some time and I just have to say... Bloody brilliant! That first paragraph was quite possibly the best introduction to our beloved Krevlorneswath of the Deathwok Clan that anyone has ever written. To quote my hero, "Good on ya, mate!" I don't really have all that much to contribute at the moment I'm afraid. But I would like to compliment you on being one of the few to actually "get" this episode. I've been shocked at the number of otherwise intelligent, rational people that for some reason were just bored or even disgusted by this one. One person even said she thought having Gunn pee on everything was racist... which I just don't understand, but alright. Anyways, thanks for the wonderful reviews. If you get the chance you should cruise by The Big Bad Board (www.bigbad.net). I'd love to see your contribution to the conversations we have over there. Haunt Well, thanks, Haunt, for the praise, and for dropping in on us and registering. I'll certainly check out the excellently named bigbad board!
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Post by ldelrossi on Oct 31, 2003 10:54:58 GMT -5
WELCOME HAUNT! Great review Nan and obviously fans outside of our group are impressed as well.
"...even the most intelligent and evolved of creatures harbors a beast within..."
I think this was the main message of the episode. Who would have ever thought that endlessly upbeat Lorne would harbor such a violent inner beast? It definitely showed what he thought about the FG - Wesley and Fred need to lighten up and Lorne knew that only alcohol would do the job. I also think "Lorne's beast" was instrumental in getting Knox to volunteer to stay in the lab. Lorne knows that Wesley still pines for Fred and he wanted to throw them together.
I'm having more trouble with Gunn. Is that a reference to his friendliness with the big cat? Is it a hint that because of W&H's input into his brain, that he may challenge Angel for control of the territory? Could the big cat be controlling Gunn?
Lorne knows of Angel's feelings for Cordelia. He saw him be kind to Darla when she was pregnant. He probably knows about his loss of Buffy. Obviously he believes that sex will take away tension. To me, sleeping with Eve, is like sleeping with a black widow spider - remember they eat their mates. She is too connected to W&H and I thought her face was very evil as she left. I agree she is trying to insinuate herself into Angel's life in an effort to manipulate him - on order from the SPs.
I agree with "...if non-vilent, socialble Lorne has buried feelings sufficient to produce death and destruction when unleashed, what might Angel himself...wreak if his inner monster -Angelus- ever were freed?"
We saw what havoc Angelus would wreak at the end of last season. His brutal verbal abuse shattered everyone, he was a powerful, evil, enemy to the FG and the forces of good. We saw that Angelus lies restlessly just below the surface of Angel and is constantly trying to get out. Angel struggles to keep the cork in the bottle that holds his demon.
In addition to that, he struggles with worry that he made the wrong choice in coming to W&H, that W&H will succeed in corrupting them all, that he will be too distracted fighting W&H to be able to help the helpless who are powerless, that he will overwhelm his "good" with all of the gray choices he is making to keep W&H operating until he can figure out a way to manipulate them so he can fight "the good fight."
But, he is still a vampire with a soul, chosen as a warrior for the good side. Personally I think all of this is "the coming darkness" that was part of the shanshu prophecy. Angel has to work through all of this gray/evil to truly become a champion of good. But I'm not certain that that will mean become human.
The episode was filled with much to chew on. ME continues to ask questions and give no answers. But that is of course what makes good drama and Joss has often said that he doesn't want his fans to be comfortable.
Your review was brilliant, except that to "Angel's Darling Girl" you are always too hard on my champion! ;D
"Hmmmmmmmmm, Angel!"
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Post by Haunt on Oct 31, 2003 11:05:48 GMT -5
I'm having more trouble with Gunn. Is that a reference to his friendliness with the big cat? Is it a hint that because of W&H's input into his brain, that he may challenge Angel for control of the territory? Could the big cat be controlling Gunn? Someone in a recent interview (it was either Joss, Fury or Jeff Bell... can't remember who at the moment) described Gunn this season as "Angel's second-in-command", which would certainly be a change from the last few seasons. Even granting that Wes is no longer the "leader" and Angel the "employee", I would have thought Wes would get second billing. Gunn was never really the "upper management" type. But obviously the transformation he's undergone puts him in a whole different category. So while I'm not sure that Gunn himself feels this way just yet, I think it's entirely possible that we've got some foreshadowing of some kind of power struggle between the two. I also think that the marking of territory ties in with the whole cat motif with Gunn. Cats big and small are actually just as prone to marking territory with scent, urine in particular, as dogs... moreso in fact. Oh, and thanks for the welcome. Glad to be here. My invitation to Nan is open to everyone... come check us out. Haunt www.bigbad.net
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Post by ldelrossi on Oct 31, 2003 11:22:33 GMT -5
Forgot one thing I wanted to say.
I maintain that Spike is vital to Angel and the FG as a fresh, cynical, practical pair of eyes. His comment in Just Rewards: "I know you Angel...Made some devl's bargain to take over this company. Thought you'd use it to fight the evil of the world inside the belly of the beast. Trouble is you're too busy fighting to see you and yours are getting digested."
Angel has obviously been thinking about Spike's comments because in this episode he tells Gunn: "We're not OK. We've been so focused ont he dangers outside that we didn't see the ones within. This place is trying to change us, Gunn. We can never forget that."
I am always impressed when the writers carry stuff over like that and I'm also impressed when I notice it!
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Post by Karen on Oct 31, 2003 11:36:28 GMT -5
Nan, I really enjoyed your review this week. Your best so far!
I like when they show a lesser character-centric episode because we get to know them better and see the main characters from their point of view. It adds so much to the series as a whole.
Some of my random thoughts stimulated by your review:
You pointed out that Wesley and Fred figured out that something was amiss when they saw Spike uncharacteristically jolly. Interesting that Spike was yet again the key to destroying the bad.
I *liked* seeing Fred with a gun again.
Angel tusselled with two demons and got covered in slime from them. He was able to wash the slime from the first demon he encountered on patrol with a long shower. Washing off the slime from his encounter with Eve (the Fighting Banana Slug) is not going to be as easy.
We can see that Lorne's 'Subconscious' (cool) brought forth the subconscious of each of the FG (as Lorne sees them).
And with Fred's 'I could use a drink' - maybe a little of what was stirred up in each of them will remain on the surface. P.S. - The music in the dance scene was so irritating. ;D
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Post by Sue on Oct 31, 2003 11:58:16 GMT -5
Interesting that Spike was yet again the key to destroying the bad. Angel tusselled with two demons and got covered in slime from them. He was able to wash the slime from the first demon he encountered on patrol with a long shower. Washing off the slime from his encounter with Eve (the Fighting Banana Slug) is not going to be as easy. Oh, I like both of those observations. (I told hubby about the "Fighting Banana Slugs" and he LOL'd. Thanks Rob.
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Post by Karen on Oct 31, 2003 12:25:09 GMT -5
Someone in a recent interview (it was either Joss, Fury or Jeff Bell... can't remember who at the moment) described Gunn this season as "Angel's second-in-command", which would certainly be a change from the last few seasons. Even granting that Wes is no longer the "leader" and Angel the "employee", I would have thought Wes would get second billing. Gunn was never really the "upper management" type. But obviously the transformation he's undergone puts him in a whole different category. So while I'm not sure that Gunn himself feels this way just yet, I think it's entirely possible that we've got some foreshadowing of some kind of power struggle between the two. I also think that the marking of territory ties in with the whole cat motif with Gunn. Cats big and small are actually just as prone to marking territory with scent, urine in particular, as dogs... moreso in fact. Oh, and thanks for the welcome. Glad to be here. My invitation to Nan is open to everyone... come check us out. Haunt www.bigbad.netWelcome Haunt! I checked out your website (and bookmarked it). Pretty dang cool! Thanks for coming over and checking us out. Nan's reviews are very cool, no? I think we're seeing a gradual transformation of Gunn. Angel's being "more of a dog person" really fits with the whole struggle for dominance scenario. In this ep, Spike makes a comment about liking Angel's desk. I don't know how that fits in. Just something to ponder.
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