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Post by Karen on Nov 11, 2003 20:09:05 GMT -5
Thanks Nan, for reminding us that Angel *did* kill Connor by slashing his throat with the knife he held, when he told Connor he loved him. Connor asked what Angel was going to do about it. "Prove it" Angel replied and with one stroke, finished Connor's (then) life. The father *did* kill the son, sacrificed Connor's twisted life to make room for the more perfect life Connor now enjoys. Another thought occurred to me during Numero Cinco. What if the Powers and the Senior Partners all all the same beings? Right there with you on the wondering whether the PTB and SP might be the same beings. It's all about the power, and the balance of power.
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Post by Sue on Nov 11, 2003 23:11:23 GMT -5
Nan,
Loved the review as usual. Loved the "Grammar Nazi" moment--it's one of my earliest ScoopMe memories.
Like makd's post paralleling (reflecting) Spike and Angel.
Picking a nit:
You said: Taking a different perspective from Fred’s discussion of heroism with Spike, in which she finds more significance in his Hellmouth closing than he does because in doing it, he saved her life.
Spike was poo-pooing his role as a "hero" in closing the Hellmouth. Fred replied that he is a hero to her because he saved her life. I took that to mean he saved her life in Hell Bound, not as part and parcel of closing the Hellmouth and saving the world. Minor point, really.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 12, 2003 0:33:15 GMT -5
Nan, Loved the review as usual. Loved the "Grammar Nazi" moment--it's one of my earliest ScoopMe memories. Like makd's post paralleling (reflecting) Spike and Angel. Picking a nit: You said: Taking a different perspective from Fred’s discussion of heroism with Spike, in which she finds more significance in his Hellmouth closing than he does because in doing it, he saved her life. Spike was poo-pooing his role as a "hero" in closing the Hellmouth. Fred replied that he is a hero to her because he saved her life. I took that to mean he saved her life in Hell Bound, not as part and parcel of closing the Hellmouth and saving the world. Minor point, really. You could well be right. I heard the whole conversation in the overt context of Spike's closing the Hellmouth--nothing else was directly mentioned, and the Hellmouth closing DID save Fred's life--along with that of everybody else in the world the First would have set the Turok-Han on. So yours is a reasonable inference, but the dialogue as stands does not specify that.
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Post by Karen on Nov 12, 2003 7:48:34 GMT -5
Nan, Loved the review as usual. Loved the "Grammar Nazi" moment--it's one of my earliest ScoopMe memories. Like makd's post paralleling (reflecting) Spike and Angel. Picking a nit: You said: Taking a different perspective from Fred’s discussion of heroism with Spike, in which she finds more significance in his Hellmouth closing than he does because in doing it, he saved her life. Spike was poo-pooing his role as a "hero" in closing the Hellmouth. Fred replied that he is a hero to her because he saved her life. I took that to mean he saved her life in Hell Bound, not as part and parcel of closing the Hellmouth and saving the world. Minor point, really. This is the way I saw it, Sue. I think when he sacrificed his chance to become corporeal, it meant more to Fred because she saw him do it - she didn't see him burst into firey flames at the Hellmouth. Spike didn't argue with Fred on that point, because he realized she was right - he was a hero in her eyes.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 12, 2003 15:32:46 GMT -5
This is the way I saw it, Sue. I think when he sacrificed his chance to become corporeal, it meant more to Fred because she saw him do it - she didn't see him burst into firey flames at the Hellmouth. Spike didn't argue with Fred on that point, because he realized she was right - he was a hero in her eyes. I thought first of Spike saving the world. By doing so, he indirectly saved Fred. But he saved Fred in a more personal way, too. So now he's saved her life twice, and it was good of her to give him props for that. As in Spiral we see Spike responding to those around him based on their response to him (isn't that pretty much what we all do?). Fred treats him w/the respect due a hero, and she's gone from 'Scanner Girl' to 'Science Queen.' Lorne was the first to speak to him when he appeared in Angel's office, trying to soothe his obvious anxiety. Spike leaves Angel's office w/o protest in Life of the Party for Lorne's sake, not Angel's.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 12, 2003 15:55:41 GMT -5
This is the way I saw it, Sue. I think when he sacrificed his chance to become corporeal, it meant more to Fred because she saw him do it - she didn't see him burst into firey flames at the Hellmouth. Spike didn't argue with Fred on that point, because he realized she was right - he was a hero in her eyes. Me too.
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Post by Kerrie on Nov 25, 2003 16:52:42 GMT -5
Great review Nan.
One nit-pick, and I suspect it will be with JW and not with you. Psychology studies show that giving people rewards undermines their intrinsic motivation for doing a task. Thus the shanshu prophecy would work to undermine Angel's intrinsic motivation to fight evil. I know Ange did not sound like he believed it, but his best reason for fighting evil is because he has the power and they need him. By making him think about the prophecy and focus on his reward, Wes has essentially started corrupting Angel by taking away his intrinsic motivation. Ditto for Fred and Spike. I will be honest and say that I am not happy with this turn of events and think that Angel reading the book of prophecies was a bleak ending.
I will put it another way. Gunn is highly motivated about his work at W&H, but he is not doing it for the money or other extrinsic perks. He is motivated by his power to do good and the fact that he is successful. If, as you suggest, a battle emerges between Angel and Gunn about the leading of W&H, I think that Gunn's higher level of intrinsic motivation could be a key.
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Post by Karen on Nov 25, 2003 17:12:32 GMT -5
Great review Nan. One nit-pick, and I suspect it will be with JW and not with you. Psychology studies show that giving people rewards undermines their intrinsic motivation for doing a task. Thus the shanshu prophecy would work to undermine Angel's intrinsic motivation to fight evil. I know Ange did not sound like he believed it, but his best reason for fighting evil is because he has the power and they need him. By making him think about the prophecy and focus on his reward, Wes has essentially started corrupting Angel by taking away his intrinsic motivation. Ditto for Fred and Spike. I will be honest and say that I am not happy with this turn of events and think that Angel reading the book of prophecies was a bleak ending. I will put it another way. Gunn is highly motivated about his work at W&H, but he is not doing it for the money or other extrinsic perks. He is motivated by his power to do good and the fact that he is successful. If, as you suggest, a battle emerges between Angel and Gunn about the leading of W&H, I think that Gunn's higher level of intrinsic motivation could be a key. This is very interesting, Kerrie. I'm glad you snuck this in. When my youngest rescued a lady from icy Lake Michigan a few years ago, his motivation for putting his life at risk was because he knew it was the right thing to do. He wasn't expecting any reward, and was really embarrassed with all the attention afterwards. In fact, he tried his best to shy away from all the accolades. Of course, people being people, he was showered with all sorts of affection and praise. He didn't like it. He said that "anyone" would have done the same. So why was he so embarrassed by all the attention? What was it inside of him that made him feel bad? Was it because he felt that the praise wasn't really deserved? That deep down, he thinks that it somehow cheapens the act. I'm not expressing myself very well. I know what I'm thinking, but the clarity just isn't there. Angel doesn't like the Champion title either. Maybe he feels that it takes away from his true motivation which is to do good for the sake of doing good. Not for a reward. I agree, his reading the Shanshu and his renewed desire for it, and the possible competition for it now with Spike, might spell disaster for our broody guy. I think you're on to something here. I just need to digest it further. Thanks for posting.
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Post by Laura on Nov 25, 2003 17:27:42 GMT -5
Great review Nan. One nit-pick, and I suspect it will be with JW and not with you. Psychology studies show that giving people rewards undermines their intrinsic motivation for doing a task. Thus the shanshu prophecy would work to undermine Angel's intrinsic motivation to fight evil. I know Ange did not sound like he believed it, but his best reason for fighting evil is because he has the power and they need him. By making him think about the prophecy and focus on his reward, Wes has essentially started corrupting Angel by taking away his intrinsic motivation. Ditto for Fred and Spike. I will be honest and say that I am not happy with this turn of events and think that Angel reading the book of prophecies was a bleak ending. I will put it another way. Gunn is highly motivated about his work at W&H, but he is not doing it for the money or other extrinsic perks. He is motivated by his power to do good and the fact that he is successful. If, as you suggest, a battle emerges between Angel and Gunn about the leading of W&H, I think that Gunn's higher level of intrinsic motivation could be a key. Interesting post, Kerrie (and thanks for being here!). I particularly like your comment that it's Wes who's focussing Angel on the prophecy, and thus making him think about his reward.
I don't know if you intended to emphasize Wesley's role or not, but I find it curious that Angel's possible "corruption" might be spearheaded by that other character who took such a walk on the dark side, we're not sure if he's really made it back.
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Post by Karen on Nov 25, 2003 17:30:12 GMT -5
Interesting post, Kerrie (and thanks for being here!). I particularly like your comment that it's Wes who's focussing Angel on the prophecy, and thus making him think about his reward.
I don't know if you intended to emphasize Wesley's role or not, but I find it curious that Angel's possible "corruption" might be spearheaded by that other character who took such a walk on the dark side, we're not sure if he's really made it back. I agree, Laura.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 25, 2003 18:11:42 GMT -5
Great review Nan. One nit-pick, and I suspect it will be with JW and not with you. Psychology studies show that giving people rewards undermines their intrinsic motivation for doing a task. Thus the shanshu prophecy would work to undermine Angel's intrinsic motivation to fight evil. I know Ange did not sound like he believed it, but his best reason for fighting evil is because he has the power and they need him. By making him think about the prophecy and focus on his reward, Wes has essentially started corrupting Angel by taking away his intrinsic motivation. Ditto for Fred and Spike. I will be honest and say that I am not happy with this turn of events and think that Angel reading the book of prophecies was a bleak ending. I will put it another way. Gunn is highly motivated about his work at W&H, but he is not doing it for the money or other extrinsic perks. He is motivated by his power to do good and the fact that he is successful. If, as you suggest, a battle emerges between Angel and Gunn about the leading of W&H, I think that Gunn's higher level of intrinsic motivation could be a key. While I agree that intrinsic motivation is stronger in the long run than extrinsic, if carried to the extreme, denying any reward at all or even the possibility of one defeats the intrinsic motivation entirely. Put it another way: give people difficult, demanding, exhausting work...and then don't pay them? You'll only get priests and do-gooders that way, not ordinary folk. And even priests need to eat, have a roof over their heads, etc. So while your thesis applies specifically to a Hero, a Champion, I think after one beats one's head against the wall the thousandth and first time without satsifactory result, one also has to consider the impact of negative reinforcement on even the strongest intrinsic motivation. Sorry, we disagree about this. Not your research, but the interpretation and application of this research in the present case. Or perhaps I've misunderstood you. Please correct me, if that's true.
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Post by Kerrie on Nov 25, 2003 19:55:40 GMT -5
Interesting post, Kerrie (and thanks for being here!). I particularly like your comment that it's Wes who's focussing Angel on the prophecy, and thus making him think about his reward.
I don't know if you intended to emphasize Wesley's role or not, but I find it curious that Angel's possible "corruption" might be spearheaded by that other character who took such a walk on the dark side, we're not sure if he's really made it back. Yes, after I posted the significance of it being Wes hit me. Except I didn't that I did not interpret it in light of Wes's past propensity for evil, but in terms of Wes's past propensity for being evil's unwitting tool. (Maybe there is a lesson about the erasure of everyone's memories leaving people not learning lessons and therefore destined to repeat them?) However, after I posted I thought of Gandalf being trapped by Saramun by responding to a message from Radagast. It is easier to be trapped by unwitting friends than evil in it's real form. Maybe the Senior Partners appreciate this sad fact.
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Post by Kerrie on Nov 25, 2003 20:27:31 GMT -5
While I agree that intrinsic motivation is stronger in the long run than extrinsic, if carried to the extreme, denying any reward at all or even the possibility of one defeats the intrinsic motivation entirely. Put it another way: give people difficult, demanding, exhausting work...and then don't pay them? You'll only get priests and do-gooders that way, not ordinary folk. And even priests need to eat, have a roof over their heads, etc. So while your thesis applies specifically to a Hero, a Champion, I think after one beats one's head against the wall the thousandth and first time without satsifactory result, one also has to consider the impact of negative reinforcement on even the strongest intrinsic motivation. Sorry, we disagree about this. Not your research, but the interpretation and application of this research in the present case. Or perhaps I've misunderstood you. Please correct me, if that's true. I am sorry I am not sure that I agree. 1) Angel is not ordinary folk. He is in line with the priests and do-gooders - a type of hero like Mother Theresa. Sure heroes like Mother Theresa are beating their heads against a brick-wall, but it doesn't mean that the work is unfulfilling just because the problem continues despite their best efforts. I think Angel should have been encouraged to think what he has achieved, rather than simply focusing on how much is left to go or directed to think of his possible reward. 2) I dion't think negative reinforcement has to be the only outcome of beating your head against a brick wall unless that is how you interpret it. Angel is achieving results, he just hasn't ended evil in the first month or two of being the CEO of W&H. That is not negative reinforcement unless he is blindly optimistic about what can be achieved by one small group of people in the short term and in the long-term. Goals always need to be realistic and specific to maintain intrinsic motivation. 3) "Even priests need to eat". That is true and it is not the pent-house or the cars that I believe that will ultimately corrupt Angel even thought they vastly exceed his needs and thus fall into the realm of excessive reward. It is the uncertain and long-awaited reward of shanshuing that will be his undoing. This is partly because Angel is not optimistic by nature and would find the uncertainty a sap on his energy. To put it back in perspective I think it would have been foolish for Mother Theresa to act in the hope of being made a saint or in the hope of being admitted into Heaven. I believe she acted because she identified a problem that she believed she could help relieve. The fact that she releived the problem to some extent every time she got up made it worth-while and kept her getting up every day. I suspect that you could argue that Mother Theresa acted because she was doing God's work, but that is not the same as being offered Heaven. As an aside I will go one step further and start speculating on why Number five was not an acknowledged hero. When he is discussing his role with Angel he felt that he and his brothers were not adequately acknowledged for their efforts - they had become figures of fun. However, he seemed to overlook the fact that the re-enactment showed the five winning their match. It can also be inferred that he, unlike his brothers, was in it for the fame (a reward) and not simply because he had the power to help. I am not sure that I am being clear and I am not sure that I even right on this, but I suspect that JW is very much on the side of people doing what they can to do their bit in the fight against evil. Angel's capabilities are large therefore much can be expected of him, but he will not end evil in his first few years fighting it and he would absurd to make that his bench-mark of success. Sorry to ramble.
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Post by Kerrie on Nov 25, 2003 20:29:27 GMT -5
This is very interesting, Kerrie. I'm glad you snuck this in. When my youngest rescued a lady from icy Lake Michigan a few years ago, his motivation for putting his life at risk was because he knew it was the right thing to do. He wasn't expecting any reward, and was really embarrassed with all the attention afterwards. In fact, he tried his best to shy away from all the accolades. Of course, people being people, he was showered with all sorts of affection and praise. He didn't like it. He said that "anyone" would have done the same. So why was he so embarrassed by all the attention? What was it inside of him that made him feel bad? Was it because he felt that the praise wasn't really deserved? That deep down, he thinks that it somehow cheapens the act. I'm not expressing myself very well. I know what I'm thinking, but the clarity just isn't there. Angel doesn't like the Champion title either. Maybe he feels that it takes away from his true motivation which is to do good for the sake of doing good. Not for a reward. I agree, his reading the Shanshu and his renewed desire for it, and the possible competition for it now with Spike, might spell disaster for our broody guy. I think you're on to something here. I just need to digest it further. Thanks for posting. Yes that is what I meant! Thanks for expressing it so well.
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Post by Laura on Nov 25, 2003 22:09:35 GMT -5
I am sorry I am not sure that I agree. 1) Angel is not ordinary folk. He is in line with the priests and do-gooders - a type of hero like Mother Theresa. Sure heroes like Mother Theresa are beating their heads against a brick-wall, but it doesn't mean that the work is unfulfilling just because the problem continues despite their best efforts. I think Angel should have been encouraged to think what he has achieved, rather than simply focusing on how much is left to go or directed to think of his possible reward. 2) I dion't think negative reinforcement has to be the only outcome of beating your head against a brick wall unless that is how you interpret it. Angel is achieving results, he just hasn't ended evil in the first month or two of being the CEO of W&H. That is not negative reinforcement unless he is blindly optimistic about what can be achieved by one small group of people in the short term and in the long-term. Goals always need to be realistic and specific to maintain intrinsic motivation. 3) "Even priests need to eat". That is true and it is not the pent-house or the cars that I believe that will ultimately corrupt Angel even thought they vastly exceed his needs and thus fall into the realm of excessive reward. It is the uncertain and long-awaited reward of shanshuing that will be his undoing. This is partly because Angel is not optimistic by nature and would find the uncertainty a sap on his energy. To put it back in perspective I think it would have been foolish for Mother Theresa to act in the hope of being made a saint or in the hope of being admitted into Heaven. I believe she acted because she identified a problem that she believed she could help relieve. The fact that she releived the problem to some extent every time she got up made it worth-while and kept her getting up every day. I suspect that you could argue that Mother Theresa acted because she was doing God's work, but that is not the same as being offered Heaven. As an aside I will go one step further and start speculating on why Number five was not an acknowledged hero. When he is discussing his role with Angel he felt that he and his brothers were not adequately acknowledged for their efforts - they had become figures of fun. However, he seemed to overlook the fact that the re-enactment showed the five winning their match. It can also be inferred that he, unlike his brothers, was in it for the fame (a reward) and not simply because he had the power to help. I am not sure that I am being clear and I am not sure that I even right on this, but I suspect that JW is very much on the side of people doing what they can to do their bit in the fight against evil. Angel's capabilities are large therefore much can be expected of him, but he will not end evil in his first few years fighting it and he would absurd to make that his bench-mark of success. Sorry to ramble. Not rambling. I like your insights. They shine a different light on Angel's actions and motivations -- and, more specifically, on what he thinks he should be doing and why.
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