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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Dec 2, 2003 17:04:03 GMT -5
Kerrie, that's a very interesting analysis. I'll add one other factor that I think needs to be considered with Angel/Angelus, that wouldn't be involved if he were merely a person--the problems of which, Psychology books address.
Since Angel is a vampire, and a souled one at that, and since (as a vampire) his base state is Angelus (Angelus + soul = Angel), he is a supernatural creature whose division is brought about not by pre-existing traumas, as such, but by a metaphisical change: he has a soul. So I think we also have to consider the possibility of magic being the trigger to reintegrate Angel and Angelus. Ordinary people don't have that option, but in the Jossverse, prophecies are frequently true and effective magic is always a possibility. So it seems possible to me that some magical artifact or some magically skilled person could just "zap" him, and voila, INTEGRATED!
Not good psychology, admittedly...but a lively possibility, given the range of what's already happened in the Jossverse.
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Post by Wendy on Dec 2, 2003 18:04:22 GMT -5
This is a very fascinating discussion. I have been watching Angel from the beginning and have seen every episode about 4 times (which is only about 3 times less than I've seen Buffy), and I have thought for years that the integration of Angel/Angelus should be his ultimate goal so he can fight evil. I don't know psychology, but I believe Angel's deliberate separation of identities is the main issue he needs to resolve. I would suggest the first way to do this is to stop calling his soul a "curse," something he does still to this day. I could understand him calling the "trigger" to releasing Angelus a curse, but the soul should be a blessing. Angel seems jealous that Spike didn't suffer more when he received his soul. In Just Rewards he says to Spike:
Angel: Fair?! You asked for a soul. I didn't! It almost killed me. I spent a hundred years trying to come to terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning in a basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?!
But Spike did his suffering. It wasn't just 3 weeks in the basement; he is still remorseful when he is in the basement with Buffy in Never Leave Me. He is honest about the things he did. I wouldn't say he has just forgotten about the things he did pre-soul, but has accepted that he did not know the difference between right and wrong before he was souled. Angel even says he didn't ask for the soul. I would say he still isn't sure if he wants the soul, or the responsibility the soul brings. He tells Spike in Destiny how hard being a hero is and asks Spike if he really wants that. His denial is staring him in the face, in the form of Spike. Spike, who never separates his demon unsouled self with his souled self. The first time Angel tries to say it wasn't him, but Angelus that did some awful thing, Spike is going to be right there saying, Hey mate, what’s the diff? Angelus exists because of Angel, Angel exists because of Angelus. I believe the only way to get rid of the "trigger" to Angelus is to finally except that the things unsouled Angel has done cannot be changed. It reminds me of Nan's stories, OB, Enemy of my Enemy, where Spike struggles to control his demon side. How this is to be accomplished, I do not know, but I believe it is necessary for Angel to continue to do good work, without the constant worry that Angelus will return again to harm the people he loves. I am convinced however, that Spike will be the key to this integration. Now how all this relates to what Kerrie was saying, I don’t know. Maybe you big brains out there can figure it out. Or we will just have to wait and see what JW does with this. Of course, once the assimilation happens, the show will probably be over, so I am not necessarily anxious for this to happen, but it’s fun to speculate.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Dec 2, 2003 18:12:01 GMT -5
This is a very fascinating discussion. I have been watching Angel from the beginning and have seen every episode about 4 times (which is only about 3 times less than I've seen Buffy), and I have thought for years that the integration of Angel/Angelus should be his ultimate goal so he can fight evil. I don't know psychology, but I believe Angel's deliberate separation of identities is the main issue he needs to resolve. I would suggest the first way to do this is to stop calling his soul a "curse," something he does still to this day. I could understand him calling the "trigger" to releasing Angelus a curse, but the soul should be a blessing. Angel seems jealous that Spike didn't suffer more when he received his soul. In Just Rewards he says to Spike: Angel: Fair?! You asked for a soul. I didn't! It almost killed me. I spent a hundred years trying to come to terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning in a basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?! But Spike did his suffering. It wasn't just 3 weeks in the basement; he is still remorseful when he is in the basement with Buffy in Never Leave Me. He is honest about the things he did. I wouldn't say he has just forgotten about the things he did pre-soul, but has accepted that he did not know the difference between right and wrong before he was souled. Angel even says he didn't ask for the soul. I would say he still isn't sure if he wants the soul, or the responsibility the soul brings. He tells Spike in Destiny how hard being a hero is and asks Spike if he really wants that. His denial is staring him in the face, in the form of Spike. Spike, who never separates his demon unsouled self with his souled self. The first time Angel tries to say it wasn't him, but Angelus that did some awful thing, Spike is going to be right there saying, Hey mate, what’s the diff? Angelus exists because of Angel, Angel exists because of Angelus. I believe the only way to get rid of the "trigger" to Angelus is to finally except that the things unsouled Angel has done cannot be changed. It reminds me of Nan's stories, OB, Enemy of my Enemy, where Spike struggles to control his demon side. How this is to be accomplished, I do not know, but I believe it is necessary for Angel to continue to do good work, without the constant worry that Angelus will return again to harm the people he loves. I am convinced however, that Spike will be the key to this integration. Now how all this relates to what Kerrie was saying, I don’t know. Maybe you big brains out there can figure it out. Or we will just have to wait and see what JW does with this. Of course, once the assimilation happens, the show will probably be over, so I am not necessarily anxious for this to happen, but it’s fun to speculate. I agree, it's fun to speculate...always hoping that the result doesn't end the series! You're right about that, Wendy: when the central problem is resolved, the story's over, and we don't want that! NOOOOOOO!!
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Post by Laura on Dec 2, 2003 18:24:34 GMT -5
This is a very fascinating discussion. I have been watching Angel from the beginning and have seen every episode about 4 times (which is only about 3 times less than I've seen Buffy), and I have thought for years that the integration of Angel/Angelus should be his ultimate goal so he can fight evil. I don't know psychology, but I believe Angel's deliberate separation of identities is the main issue he needs to resolve. I would suggest the first way to do this is to stop calling his soul a "curse," something he does still to this day. I could understand him calling the "trigger" to releasing Angelus a curse, but the soul should be a blessing. Angel seems jealous that Spike didn't suffer more when he received his soul. In Just Rewards he says to Spike: Angel: Fair?! You asked for a soul. I didn't! It almost killed me. I spent a hundred years trying to come to terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning in a basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?! But Spike did his suffering. It wasn't just 3 weeks in the basement; he is still remorseful when he is in the basement with Buffy in Never Leave Me. He is honest about the things he did. I wouldn't say he has just forgotten about the things he did pre-soul, but has accepted that he did not know the difference between right and wrong before he was souled. Angel even says he didn't ask for the soul. I would say he still isn't sure if he wants the soul, or the responsibility the soul brings. He tells Spike in Destiny how hard being a hero is and asks Spike if he really wants that. His denial is staring him in the face, in the form of Spike. Spike, who never separates his demon unsouled self with his souled self. The first time Angel tries to say it wasn't him, but Angelus that did some awful thing, Spike is going to be right there saying, Hey mate, what’s the diff? Angelus exists because of Angel, Angel exists because of Angelus. I believe the only way to get rid of the "trigger" to Angelus is to finally except that the things unsouled Angel has done cannot be changed. It reminds me of Nan's stories, OB, Enemy of my Enemy, where Spike struggles to control his demon side. How this is to be accomplished, I do not know, but I believe it is necessary for Angel to continue to do good work, without the constant worry that Angelus will return again to harm the people he loves. I am convinced however, that Spike will be the key to this integration. Now how all this relates to what Kerrie was saying, I don’t know. Maybe you big brains out there can figure it out. Or we will just have to wait and see what JW does with this. Of course, once the assimilation happens, the show will probably be over, so I am not necessarily anxious for this to happen, but it’s fun to speculate. Good observations by all. The thing is, though, and I say this having just re-watched S2 Through the Looking Glass, is that Angel really hates and fears his demon side. When he sees it, and manages to turn himself back to his human half, he's trembling in shock and fear. And when he realizes that Gunn and Wes have both seen his demon in its purest form -- that they saw the "monster" -- he fears that he can never be with them again -- that they won't want him.
I don't know that Angel ever can "embrace" his demon side, or that he "wants" to integrate it with the rest of him. I have watched AtS from the beginning, but I haven't re-watched the older episodes in a long time, so I've forgotten a lot. It's just that there really is much about Angel's character that, while not "set in stone," is firmly established. Angel recognizes his demon as "evil." He doesn't want to be evil, so he denies his demonic half. He suppresses it, he broods, he disclaims responsibility for any of the actions done by Angelus. Angel wants to be "good." How the deal he made with W&H will affect his desire to be good is something that we're still working through with this season.
And talk about foreshadowing -- how about Cordy's reaction to hearing that she has to com-shuk with the Groosalug?
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Post by Karen on Dec 3, 2003 23:54:35 GMT -5
Your comment made me think, Karen, about how JW will pull off the integration of Angel/Angelus. I do not know much about any type of counselling psychology, but I remember a little bit of it and re-read some relevant bits from my old psych text books. Granted they are probably all out of date now, but it was still interesting to me and maybe others. Hypothesis 1: Multiple Personality Disorder. If Angel had a multiple personality disorder, like Sybil, then Angelus has existed within him fo years and was only triggered to apear once he became a vampire. Angelus would have been created to cope with extreme stress - possibly involving extreme physical, sexual and/or emotional abuse probably by his family. Thus, in this situation we would guess that Angel's father created the initial stress. Interestingly, the psychology text says that the first persona (Angel) is usually restrained and dull, whilst the second (Angelus) is more impulsive and unihibited. This is a contentious hypothesis and my old text book strongly implies there is no such thing (i.e. that it is created by hypnotic suggestion or stress and pretense). Thus no cure is suggested. However, in the book Sybil the Doctor used psychoanalysis and hypnosis. However, the key thing to integration was getting Sybil to accept the other parts and recognise the traumas that created them. Hypothesis 2: Anger Management. The second hypothesis is similar to the first and probably could be called the Incredible Hulk hypothesis. Someone who suppresses their anger finds release through another personality. Angelus is very aggressive whilst Angel displays more passive aggressive ways of dealing with anger. Thus the anger builds within Angel and Angelus absorbs it all. The cure would be for Angel to learn some more appropriate ways for handling his anger/aggression than simply bottling it up. Hypothesis 3: Irrational Thinking. The third hypothesis is that the split between Angel and Angelus is based on Angel's irrational self-beliefs about emotional vulnerability and perfection. Angel strives for control over himself and his environment. Emotional vulnerability is created by him loving someone like his family or friends. All of whom have hurt him and made him realise that he is less than in control. Instead os accepting the rational idea that people we love can hurt us and that we cannot have control over our world, Angel still struggles to achieve both of these impossible dreams. Angelus is a manifestation of his irrational beliefs: powerful, controlling and emotional invulnerable. The integration of Angel/Angelus would lie in Angel recognising and removing his irrational thoughts and then dealing with his anger issues. Hypothesis 4: The drunk analogy. I think JW said he created Angel/Angelus with the drunk in mind. In this case, the cure, according to some, would be for Angel to avoid lettng Angelus out. Other cures for mean drunks is for them to deal with their issues when they are sober so that they don't act out when there conscience is suppressed (i.e. when they are drunk). Hypothesis 5: The soul. The last hypothesis is getting back to the Jane Austen (Fanny Price in Mansfield Park) notion that good manners are not simply social obligations but a way of thinking. Angel suppresses his more aggressive tendencies and thoughts instead of dealing with the fact that he feels so aggressivel towards people. In the final ananlysis, the soul simply controls the expression of inapproriate behaviour, if Angel did not have the thoughts/feelings there would be nothing to control. I hope this makes sense. I have got a bad feeling that eanyone reading this will think that I have just said the same thing five times. There are minor differences between the hypotheses about the cause and treatment of the split between Angel/Angelus and maybe all hypotheses need to be used because Angel is multi-layered with more than one trigger and more than issue to be resolved. Kerrie, at first I thougth maybe Angel had anger management issues. And I think he does to some extent, but more than anger, I think I'm apt to go with Hypothesis #5 - the soul. Angel is controlling his demon with his conscience (soul) and without the guilt from the soul he is cursed with, Angel will lose his soul and revert back to the demon/vampire Angelus. And he will no longer be controlled by his soul. No matter how much we might want it, Angel cannot forget that he is a vampire with a soul, not a human with a bad temper, with a bad side, etc. The demon is Angel. Angel just happens to have a soul (conscience), and the very moment he has a moment of contentment, the curse will take the soul from him and leave just the demon. He is not human. He's a demon controlled by a human soul. I agree with Nan. Mystical means cursed him and only mystical means can free him. Angel is different from Spike in a lot of ways. Spike started out with the "stink of humanity". The chip changed him in such a way that his demon self was conditioned to seek out his soul, motivated by his love for Buffy. Angel started out pure evil, his only motivation to change was the guilt that he felt from the soul he was cursed with. Which method was more effective? Would Angelus have been as affected as Spike if he had been chipped? Would Spike have changed that much if he had been cursed with a soul in the first place without the chip and Buffy to motivate him to do good? Or would Spike have not have felt the guilt strongly and gone on his merry way of the three F's? And not been motivated to do good to "atone" for his sins as a demon? Two demons ending up in the same place by two different means. Interesting stuff. This dialogue from "Innocence" has convinced me that Angel's "accepting" Angelus is not going to bring him any peace: Because of the curse, Angel's actions must be judged on a different scale. He knows he can't be content - or make peace with his demon self. It spells disaster. He is walking a tightrope and that rope is getting thinner and tighter all the time. Cosmopolitans really loosen the tongue fingers, and tomorrow I'll probably need to be deleting this awesome and insightful post. ;D
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Post by Kerrie on Dec 4, 2003 16:04:18 GMT -5
Kerrie, at first I thougth maybe Angel had anger management issues. And I think he does to some extent, but more than anger, I think I'm apt to go with Hypothesis #5 - the soul. Angel is controlling his demon with his conscience (soul) and without the guilt from the soul he is cursed with, Angel will lose his soul and revert back to the demon/vampire Angelus. And he will no longer be controlled by his soul. No matter how much we might want it, Angel cannot forget that he is a vampire with a soul, not a human with a bad temper, with a bad side, etc. The demon is Angel. Angel just happens to have a soul (conscience), and the very moment he has a moment of contentment, the curse will take the soul from him and leave just the demon. He is not human. He's a demon controlled by a human soul. I agree with Nan. Mystical means cursed him and only mystical means can free him. Angel is different from Spike in a lot of ways. Spike started out with the "stink of humanity". The chip changed him in such a way that his demon self was conditioned to seek out his soul, motivated by his love for Buffy. Angel started out pure evil, his only motivation to change was the guilt that he felt from the soul he was cursed with. Which method was more effective? Would Angelus have been as affected as Spike if he had been chipped? Would Spike have changed that much if he had been cursed with a soul in the first place without the chip and Buffy to motivate him to do good? Or would Spike have not have felt the guilt strongly and gone on his merry way of the three F's? And not been motivated to do good to "atone" for his sins as a demon? Two demons ending up in the same place by two different means. Interesting stuff. This dialogue from "Innocence" has convinced me that Angel's "accepting" Angelus is not going to bring him any peace: Because of the curse, Angel's actions must be judged on a different scale. He knows he can't be content - or make peace with his demon self. It spells disaster. He is walking a tightrope and that rope is getting thinner and tighter all the time. Cosmopolitans really loosen the tongue fingers, and tomorrow I'll probably need to be deleting this awesome and insightful post. ;D Thanks Karen. I am not sure that I am following your train of thought. I think you are saying that Angelus is the demon component of Angel. Thus, a mystical solution is required because it is a mystical problem. Spike's demon is different to Angelus because of Spike's prior experiences, specifically his romantic attachment to Dru and Buffy and his chipping. I am not sure that this is the solution. To me, the soul in both vampires just controls the real desires of the person (i.e. the desire to kill and torture friends, family and strangers). Spike admits that his soulless actions represented his uncontrolled impulses, Angel accepts no ownership of the impulses that guide Angelus. To me it seems reasonable to have such suppressed desires. For example Xander says in Earshot that he has fantasies about getting a gun and killing everyone at Sunnydale High School. The diffference is that with a soul, we do not act out the fantasy. By disowning Angelus, Angel pretends that he doesn't have the fantasy. Spike admits that he does. I am not sure that I am making myself clear, so I will spell it out. Everything that Angelus does is something that Angel secretly wants to do, but doesn't because of his conscience. Angel never admits to the secret wish. I am not sure which episode it was in, but I think it was the first seaon when Angelus is released because of some happy pills that he took. Afterward, when Angel returns, Wes and Cordelia punish Angel because they blamed him for his wishes even if it was Angelus that carried them out. Also think of the previous episode with Lorne and his sub-conscious desire to beat up everyone. That is what Angelus is to Angel. Lorne deals with the sub-conscious desires so should Angel. In short no-one can afford to lose control of their sub-conscious by sleep deprivation or soulessness and they should all be dealing with their sub-conscious desires not bottling it up or pretending they don't have them.
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Post by Kerrie on Dec 4, 2003 17:27:26 GMT -5
Hypothesis 6: Mystical Intervention. Based o Karen's and Nan's previous posts, I have another hypothsis for solving the problem mystically. Remove Angelus (Angel's sub-conscious), like the removal of Lorne's sleep. It would not integrate Angel and Angelus and would cause Angel more problems than he can count on, but it would remove the problem of Angelus reappearing. (It would also remove Angel's baser instinct towards agression and sex, but hey . . . you can't have everything).
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Post by RAKSHA on Dec 5, 2003 3:16:20 GMT -5
Thanks Karen. I am not sure that I am following your train of thought. I think you are saying that Angelus is the demon component of Angel. Thus, a mystical solution is required because it is a mystical problem. Spike's demon is different to Angelus because of Spike's prior experiences, specifically his romantic attachment to Dru and Buffy and his chipping. I am not sure that this is the solution. To me, the soul in both vampires just controls the real desires of the person (i.e. the desire to kill and torture friends, family and strangers). Spike admits that his soulless actions represented his uncontrolled impulses, Angel accepts no ownership of the impulses that guide Angelus. To me it seems reasonable to have such suppressed desires. For example Xander says in Earshot that he has fantasies about getting a gun and killing everyone at Sunnydale High School. The diffference is that with a soul, we do not act out the fantasy. By disowning Angelus, Angel pretends that he doesn't have the fantasy. Spike admits that he does. I am not sure that I am making myself clear, so I will spell it out. Everything that Angelus does is something that Angel secretly wants to do, but doesn't because of his conscience. Angel never admits to the secret wish. I am not sure which episode it was in, but I think it was the first seaon when Angelus is released because of some happy pills that he took. Afterward, when Angel returns, Wes and Cordelia punish Angel because they blamed him for his wishes even if it was Angelus that carried them out. Also think of the previous episode with Lorne and his sub-conscious desire to beat up everyone. That is what Angelus is to Angel. Lorne deals with the sub-conscious desires so should Angel. In short no-one can afford to lose control of their sub-conscious by sleep deprivation or soulessness and they should all be dealing with their sub-conscious desires not bottling it up or pretending they don't have them. What a fascinating discussion!
I think that the personas of Angelus and Soulless Spike represent more than just freedom from inhibition and impulses gone wild. Angelus and Soulless Spike definitely exemplify the problems of indulging every impulse and living without inhibition, but there's an extra element involved - the vampire self, the demon that magnifies every violent and dangerous instinct possessed by the pre-vamp self.
Angel and Spike have their souls back; the soul that gives them the power to inhibit their most vicious desires. But the hunger for human blood fresh from the vein is always there, and the desire to take it by violence. Our soul-boys will always have to work a bit harder than most humans to rein in their inner demons...
GAIL
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Post by Karen on Dec 5, 2003 8:29:43 GMT -5
What a fascinating discussion!
I think that the personas of Angelus and Soulless Spike represent more than just freedom from inhibition and impulses gone wild. Angelus and Soulless Spike definitely exemplify the problems of indulging every impulse and living without inhibition, but there's an extra element involved - the vampire self, the demon that magnifies every violent and dangerous instinct possessed by the pre-vamp self.
Angel and Spike have their souls back; the soul that gives them the power to inhibit their most vicious desires. But the hunger for human blood fresh from the vein is always there, and the desire to take it by violence. Our soul-boys will always have to work a bit harder than most humans to rein in their inner demons...
GAIL Kerrie and Gail - thanks for clarifying what I was trying to say! The demon component does amplify the viscious desires of Angel and Spike. And because Angel is "blessed" with a more viscious personality and Spike has a poet's heart, Angel is going to struggle more with that demon. I think Angel also hates that demon side, as Laura has pointed out. He hates it with a passion. Of course, the curse doesn't help in that if Angel's soul no longer plagues him, he loses it. Wouldn't Angel, if he integrates Angelus, become "content" and lose his soul?
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Post by Nickim on Dec 5, 2003 9:04:13 GMT -5
What a fascinating discussion!
I think that the personas of Angelus and Soulless Spike represent more than just freedom from inhibition and impulses gone wild. Angelus and Soulless Spike definitely exemplify the problems of indulging every impulse and living without inhibition, but there's an extra element involved - the vampire self, the demon that magnifies every violent and dangerous instinct possessed by the pre-vamp self.
Angel and Spike have their souls back; the soul that gives them the power to inhibit their most vicious desires. But the hunger for human blood fresh from the vein is always there, and the desire to take it by violence. Our soul-boys will always have to work a bit harder than most humans to rein in their inner demons...
GAIL ITA I started to post something similar to what you've said, Gail. I decided not to post it, 'cause I just couldn't state what I was thinking in a coherent manner. So THANK YOU.
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Post by Karen on Dec 5, 2003 15:05:50 GMT -5
Hypothesis 6: Mystical Intervention. Based o Karen's and Nan's previous posts, I have another hypothsis for solving the problem mystically. Remove Angelus (Angel's sub-conscious), like the removal of Lorne's sleep. It would not integrate Angel and Angelus and would cause Angel more problems than he can count on, but it would remove the problem of Angelus reappearing. (It would also remove Angel's baser instinct towards agression and sex, but hey . . . you can't have everything). Interesting solution, Kerrie. Although I think this solution might leave Angel as nothing more than a robot who is a slave to duty. Did you ever see the old Star Trek episode where Captain Kirk was split in two and the "good" Captain couldn't make a decision to save his life? Both halves were needed for him to function as an effective captain. I think Angel needs Angelus in order to be an effective champion for good as a vampire. If the curse was removed, I guess that would remove Angel's soul. I think Shanshuing is Angel's only hope, but then he wouldn't be as strong as he is as a vampire. But he could still fight evil, as Wesley, Gunn and Fred do.
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Post by Kerrie on Dec 5, 2003 15:42:10 GMT -5
Interesting solution, Kerrie. Although I think this solution might leave Angel as nothing more than a robot who is a slave to duty. Did you ever see the old Star Trek episode where Captain Kirk was split in two and the "good" Captain couldn't make a decision to save his life? Both halves were needed for him to function as an effective captain. I think Angel needs Angelus in order to be an effective champion for good as a vampire. If the curse was removed, I guess that would remove Angel's soul. I think Shanshuing is Angel's only hope, but then he wouldn't be as strong as he is as a vampire. But he could still fight evil, as Wesley, Gunn and Fred do. The problem with shanshuing is that the prophecy implies that it will only occur after many lives have been saved and many apocolypses have been averted. I am guessing that is the work of at least a century. I would like to see Angel accept Angelus for what he is (i.e. Angel's secret desires) before then so that Angel can start detrigger Angelus by taking away his issues. For example if Lorne had been a bit more assertive about his agenda and his feelings about people, his other Lorne would not have needed to beat people up. Without sleep the other self would still have manifested, it just would not have been as violent. However, my underlying assumption is that the demon self does not add that much to vampires: it merely unleashes their unfettered desires. From a psychological point of view the period without a soul would have been far more insidious because it would create memories and expectations in Spike and Angel that problems can be solved with violence. I accept that I probably underestimate the demon's blood lust.
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Post by Kerrie on Dec 5, 2003 16:01:40 GMT -5
Kerrie, that's a very interesting analysis. I'll add one other factor that I think needs to be considered with Angel/Angelus, that wouldn't be involved if he were merely a person--the problems of which, Psychology books address. Since Angel is a vampire, and a souled one at that, and since (as a vampire) his base state is Angelus (Angelus + soul = Angel), he is a supernatural creature whose division is brought about not by pre-existing traumas, as such, but by a metaphisical change: he has a soul. So I think we also have to consider the possibility of magic being the trigger to reintegrate Angel and Angelus. Ordinary people don't have that option, but in the Jossverse, prophecies are frequently true and effective magic is always a possibility. So it seems possible to me that some magical artifact or some magically skilled person could just "zap" him, and voila, INTEGRATED! Not good psychology, admittedly...but a lively possibility, given the range of what's already happened in the Jossverse. I re-read this and I can see a fundamental difference in our assumptions. I believe that Liam is the base. Angelus is just Liam without a soul. Angel is Liam with a soul and the memory of Angelus's experiences and feelings. Thus, to me, the integration of Angel and Angelus depends on Angel recognising Angelus as being part of himself: they both have Liam as their base. At this point Angel rejects that Angelus is the other half of himself. This does not rule out a mystical solution, but it will be interesting to see what facet of the problem that JW would tackle, especially as I suspect that they will re-separate because neither Angel or Angelus accepts the other. (This contrasts with the two Xanders whose natural state is to be integrated, possibly because Xander does accept that he has the desire to get a gun and kill everyone at Sunnydale High. However, I expect you to say the situations are fundamentally different: the Xanders both had souls and were not inhabited by a demon.)
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Post by ldelrossi on Dec 5, 2003 16:37:52 GMT -5
Wow, I'm glad I stopped in. ;D Very interesting discussion indeed. I agree with Laura that Angel hates his demon self and fears it. He's been Angelus lately and he knows the psychological hurt that Angelus threw at all of the FG. It was cruel even without the physical violence.
The restoration of the soul turned Angelus into Angel. Angel fears losing that soul and reverting to the demon. Angelus might be the part that makes Angel cunning; the soul makes Angel want to use that cunning as a warrior for the good. Angel knows that as Angelus he was a viciously cruel murderer. He doesn't ever want him back in control.
He accepts his vampirism - remember he told Nina that being unkillable was kind of cool. But in that same episode, he struggled with saying that he was a monster. What he can't accept is the wanton cruelty that was Angelus' raison d'etre. In "Amends" the maid tells him "That's why makes you different from other beasts." Other beasts kill to feed. Angelus "took more kinds of pleasure" in the torture and torment.
Although I love cats, whenever I see them batting a mouse around, it makes me shudder. Angelus is like a cat, torturing his victims cruelly until he decides to drink from them. The difference is that Angelus is an intelligent being who decides to act in that manner.
Demon Angelus is part of who Angel is and he hates that part of himself. So far the soul has enabled Angel to keep that part of him controlled. Angel is terrified that the soul could weaken or worse disappear and give Angelus oppportunity to take control. It's sort of like that little boy in the first episode who had a mystical container with a horrible virus inside. Angel is afraid someone or something will "say the magic word" and release the demon.
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Post by RAKSHA on Dec 5, 2003 23:42:45 GMT -5
Wow, I'm glad I stopped in. ;D Very interesting discussion indeed. I agree with Laura that Angel hates his demon self and fears it. He's been Angelus lately and he knows the psychological hurt that Angelus threw at all of the FG. It was cruel even without the physical violence. The restoration of the soul turned Angelus into Angel. Angel fears losing that soul and reverting to the demon. Angelus might be the part that makes Angel cunning; the soul makes Angel want to use that cunning as a warrior for the good. Angel knows that as Angelus he was a viciously cruel murderer. He doesn't ever want him back in control. He accepts his vampirism - remember he told Nina that being unkillable was kind of cool. But in that same episode, he struggled with saying that he was a monster. What he can't accept is the wanton cruelty that was Angelus' raison d'etre. In "Amends" the maid tells him "That's why makes you different from other beasts." Other beasts kill to feed. Angelus "took more kinds of pleasure" in the torture and torment. Although I love cats, whenever I see them batting a mouse around, it makes me shudder. Angelus is like a cat, torturing his victims cruelly until he decides to drink from them. The difference is that Angelus is an intelligent being who decides to act in that manner. Demon Angelus is part of who Angel is and he hates that part of himself. So far the soul has enabled Angel to keep that part of him controlled. Angel is terrified that the soul could weaken or worse disappear and give Angelus oppportunity to take control. It's sort of like that little boy in the first episode who had a mystical container with a horrible virus inside. Angel is afraid someone or something will "say the magic word" and release the demon. Oh yes, Angel does hate his nastier half. With good reason, Angelus being an exemplar of cold calculating cruelty even among vampires.
Hopefully, Angel will learn from Spike's example that the demon can, when controlled and channeled properly, be a source of strength. Spike walks a tightrope; Angel doesn't want to have Angelus as an active part of his psyche and walk the same thin scary line.
GAIL
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