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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 12, 2003 0:36:05 GMT -5
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Post by Laura on Nov 14, 2003 19:04:56 GMT -5
Lines and trust . . . gotta admit, I missed those themes, but you're right, they're there.
Very thought-provoking review! This too requires further cogitation before I post more. But here, I wanted to be first!
Great job, Nan!
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 14, 2003 19:09:47 GMT -5
Sex with robots is more common than most people think. I think I would've preferred "Don't knock it 'til you've tried it." for some reason. Loved the scene btwn Spike & Eve in the elevator. Spike knows something's up, that he's needed in L.A. I hope ME makes this part of why he stays there rather than haring off after Buffy once he's corporeal again. If he could just reach her somehow; let her know he's back, he still loves her, he's glad she and Dawn are ok, but he's got bigger fish to fry for the time being. Buffy would understand, 'cuz she knows how much the mission matters. Now that he's emptied a clip of ammunition into a simulacrum of Daddy, I wonder if Wes will ultimately feel better, or worse? After all, he did save (what he thought was) his father from the cyborg in his office.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 14, 2003 19:19:13 GMT -5
Great review, as always, Nan. I rewatched Lineage today. R W-P reaches into the cyborg and pulls out a gun in the confusion of the bomb threat. The whole thing with the arms dealer must have been to allow one of the cyborgs to be "captured" so the gun would be there. So, the cyborgs going after the arms dealer wasn't necessarily them trying to fight the bad guys.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 14, 2003 19:24:26 GMT -5
Great review, as always, Nan. I rewatched Lineage today. R W-P reaches into the cyborg and pulls out a gun in the confusion of the bomb threat. The whole thing with the arms dealer must have been to allow one of the cyborgs to be "captured" so the gun would be there. So, the cyborgs going after the arms dealer wasn't necessarily them trying to fight the bad guys. Sure, but wasn't there some background information (expositiony) that said they've been doing more than just that? Or did I imagine that scene? (Or dream it?)
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Post by makd on Nov 14, 2003 19:38:09 GMT -5
LadyDi: Thanks for reminding us about the mission - about the long term, not-an-arc mission of the season.
Conviction, just rewards, trust, knowing when to cross the line -
all in the service of the mission. It's always the mission. Whether we explore heroism or we explore redemption; it always seems to be in the service of the mission.
Can't wait to see what Spike's mission will be. Can't wait to see Angel's mission re-charged. Can't wait to see Wes re-find his mission.
Gunn has his mission: he's doing more good in one month than he'd done in a year at AI.
Fred hasn't forgotten her mission: to do the right thing. She's already reminded Angel that she's keeping her eyes on the prize.
Terrific show; Terrific review.
Here's to you, Nan! (And here's to the Angel cast and crew!)
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Post by Nickim on Nov 14, 2003 19:46:02 GMT -5
Sure, but wasn't there some background information (expositiony) that said they've been doing more than just that? Or did I imagine that scene? (Or dream it?) Do you mean the cyborgs had been doing good? There was a conversation between Wes & Angel about similar guys attacking someone bad, but maybe that's where whoever sent the cyborgs got the idea? I really want to know where the cyborgs came from. Come on ME, answer just a FEW questions before you create more, please.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 14, 2003 19:48:59 GMT -5
We're late, but we're up. Good. Keep it going, guys.
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Post by Wendy on Nov 14, 2003 20:16:00 GMT -5
Nan, great review, you always give me so much to think about. Here's my $.02... I think that not only does Wesley have issues with living up to his fathers expectations, but I believe he's also worried about becoming like his father, abusive verbally and perhaps physically. In IGYUMS it is mentioned that his father locked him under the stairs, and he was told he was never good enough for Daddy. And then in Billy, Wes stalks, taunts, and shoves Fred, so he's both physically and verbally abusive to her, much like his father was to him. And he even tells a "joke" about women with black eyes, which makes me think his father was probably physically abusive to his mother as well and Wes probably heard his father tell this very "joke". Of course Wes was under the influence of Billy and his actions couldn't be helped, but he believes underneath the surface he is capable of doing those things without Billy's influence, as is evidenced by a later exchange between him and Fred. (see below) So I think that by "killing" his father he felt like he became worse than his father, he became, not an abusive jerk, but a murderer. I don't think that knowing it was a robot is going to make up for seeing his fear of being like his father manifested. I think much broodiness will ensue. I hope that makes sense. I am trying to type, think, and make dinner all at once. At least I'm a multitasker. From I Got You Under My SkinRYAN: (in Wesley’s voice, to Wesley) All those hours locked up under the stairs, and you still weren’t good enough. Not good enough for Daddy, not good enough for the Council From BillyWesley: "Would you like to hear my theory, Fred? It's about how stupid you are. I think that after five years of living in a cave, you'll instinctively retreat to small, dark places, rather than run outside where you'd be safe. Let's finish this." W: "What do you tell a woman with two black eyes?" (shoves Fred down on the stairs) "Nothing you haven't told her twice before." (Fred runs) "No sense of humor." The episode ends with this exchange when Fred goes to Wesley's apt and asks him to come back to AI: Fred: "That wasn't you!" Wesley: "How can you know that? Something inside me was forced to the surface. Something primal." Fred: "Do you want to kill me?" Wesley: "God, no!" Fred: "It wasn't something in you, Wesley, it was something that was done to you." Wesley: "I don't know what kind of man I am anymore." Fred: "Well, I do. [smiles] You're a good man. [pause] Will I see you back in the office?" Thought I would give some of you folks who haven't caught up on all the Angel ep's some backstory. Wendy
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Post by Sue on Nov 14, 2003 20:45:34 GMT -5
Nan, great review, you always give me so much to think about. Here's my $.02... I think that not only does Wesley have issues with living up to his fathers expectations, but I believe he's also worried about becoming like his father, abusive verbally and perhaps physically. .... And then in Billy, Wes stalks, taunts, and shoves Fred, so he's both physically and verbally abusive to her, much like his father was to him. ....Of course Wes was under the influence of Billy and his actions couldn't be helped, but he believes underneath the surface he is capable of doing those things without Billy's influence, as is evidenced by a later exchange between him and Fred. WendyIn her review eg compares Wes to Xander. This seems to be another parallel--fear of becoming their abusive fathers.
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Post by Sue on Nov 14, 2003 20:53:57 GMT -5
Nan said: "Enter endlessly fault-finding Roger Windham Price"
I started to rewatch the ep today and am finding that I do not enjoy it as much as many of the other eps. I'm not saying it wasn't good, just that I find it hard to enjoy much like several Buffy eps of season 6 and 7.
When Roger criticizes Wesley it just makes me squirm. I hate seeing him belittled--and buying into it. Uncomfortable-making.
The actors did too good a job of making it real. I was trying to think if any other show/series ever made me care so much on a personal level about the characters. I mean, yes I know they are actos and characters and yet, I feel for Wesley's pain. Totally sucked in.
Nan said: "Wesley’s loyalty and belief in Angel’s mission and Angel himself, overheard by Angel on the roof, has reestablished the trust between them."
Yes, and that was a stand up and cheer moment.
Also liked Spike's interactions with both Gunn and Wes. Fairly minimal, but a beginning--a reaching out.
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Post by Wendy on Nov 14, 2003 21:07:35 GMT -5
In her review eg compares Wes to Xander. This seems to be another parallel--fear of becoming their abusive fathers. Good point. I didn't think about that. I haven't read her review yet...but I'm heading there now. Wendy
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Post by Rachael on Nov 14, 2003 21:37:30 GMT -5
Do you mean the cyborgs had been doing good? There was a conversation between Wes & Angel about similar guys attacking someone bad, but maybe that's where whoever sent the cyborgs got the idea? I really want to know where the cyborgs came from. Come on ME, answer just a FEW questions before you create more, please. Yeah, what I thought I remembered (re-watching has become a necessity all of a sudden) was a briefing in which someone told Angel that the cyborgs (or something that sounded like it could be them) had made other "hits", if you will. On targets of evil nature. But I could just be exaggerating in my mind the teaser scene, and that was all they were talking about, I suppose.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 14, 2003 22:29:54 GMT -5
Nan said: "Enter endlessly fault-finding Roger Windham Price" I started to rewatch the ep today and am finding that I do not enjoy it as much as many of the other eps. I'm not saying it wasn't good, just that I find it hard to enjoy much like several Buffy eps of season 6 and 7. When Roger criticizes Wesley it just makes me squirm. I hate seeing him belittled--and buying into it. Uncomfortable-making. The actors did too good a job of making it real. I was trying to think if any other show/series ever made me care so much on a personal level about the characters. I mean, yes I know they are actos and characters and yet, I feel for Wesley's pain. Totally sucked in. Nan said: "Wesley’s loyalty and belief in Angel’s mission and Angel himself, overheard by Angel on the roof, has reestablished the trust between them." Yes, and that was a stand up and cheer moment. Also liked Spike's interactions with both Gunn and Wes. Fairly minimal, but a beginning--a reaching out. I'm that way about Jerry Lewis. The comedy of embarrassment makes me cringe. I don't find it funny at all. So I can sympathize with your reaction to RWP's bludgeoning of Wesley, even though it doesn't give me the same visceral twinge that it does you.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 14, 2003 22:31:44 GMT -5
Yeah, what I thought I remembered (re-watching has become a necessity all of a sudden) was a briefing in which someone told Angel that the cyborgs (or something that sounded like it could be them) had made other "hits", if you will. On targets of evil nature. But I could just be exaggerating in my mind the teaser scene, and that was all they were talking about, I suppose. No, Wes did report that. And at the end, Angel confirmed that the cyborgs are apparently to be counted as "Good Guys" and need to be informed W&H/FG are also good guys before any more of what Angel refers to as "my people" become casualties. It's an established fact, not a conjecture, in the episode.
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