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Post by Rachael on Nov 14, 2003 23:09:11 GMT -5
No, Wes did report that. And at the end, Angel confirmed that the cyborgs are apparently to be counted as "Good Guys" and need to be informed W&H/FG are also good guys before any more of what Angel refers to as "my people" become casualties. It's an established fact, not a conjecture, in the episode. Well, then - yay me! Some parts of my memory are still there, I guess. . . .
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Post by KMInfinity on Nov 14, 2003 23:27:52 GMT -5
Excellent review Nan..
ANd I agree, this was the one note that didn't ring true.
One more thing I didn't much like...the "rapport" Angel seems to have with Eve... That also seems forced and unrealistic.
Otherwise, I was really sucked into the story. I was especially blown away by the scene between Spike and PapaW-P. The line referencing their last meeting in 1963 at the orphanage made me cringe, as once again JW forces us to see Spike as something more than a "tame" hero. I thought JM played that scene perfectly--stone faced, with bravura, no apologies, but still a distant look in the eyes hinting that his remorse is too complex to patter about.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 15, 2003 0:10:11 GMT -5
No, Wes did report that. And at the end, Angel confirmed that the cyborgs are apparently to be counted as "Good Guys" and need to be informed W&H/FG are also good guys before any more of what Angel refers to as "my people" become casualties. It's an established fact, not a conjecture, in the episode. Which makes me think all the more that these WERE agents of the remnants of the Watcher's Council, and that perhaps we will meet them again. Enjoyed your review Nan, thorough insightful coverage, as always!
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Post by Karen on Nov 15, 2003 1:13:54 GMT -5
Great review, Nan! You made me think about what lines are being drawn this season. I wonder where that line will be drawn and who will be on what side of it.
Wesley was wrong to trust who he thought was his father. He trusts Angel. Or does he? Angel seems to trust Wes now since Wesley has proved himself to him. But he also knows that Wesley always makes the hard choices. Will he have to make that hard choice about Angel?
Great episode. I liked this one. But it was hard to watch, as Sue has said. Issues between parent and children are often painful. Maybe that will bond Spike, Angel and Wes together.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 15, 2003 2:37:40 GMT -5
Excellent review Nan.. ANd I agree, this was the one note that didn't ring true. One more thing I didn't much like...the "rapport" Angel seems to have with Eve... That also seems forced and unrealistic. Otherwise, I was really sucked into the story. I was especially blown away by the scene between Spike and PapaW-P. The line referencing their last meeting in 1963 at the orphanage made me cringe, as once again JW forces us to see Spike as something more than a "tame" hero. I thought JM played that scene perfectly--stone faced, with bravura, no apologies, but still a distant look in the eyes hinting that his remorse is too complex to patter about. Another great review, Nan.
(and good point, KM, about Spike not being a tame hero. Neither of our soulboys are tame lions or anyone's domesticated pets. They have a history of predation on innocent and helpless people, for which it might take them eternity to atone.)
I agree with Nan that Spike's easy reference to killing his mother because she tried to shag him was slightly out of character, especially to Wesley, someone he barely knows. I still find his killing of children out of character. Children were never Spike's preferred prey; he liked a challenge. I thought the Rogerbot had said that Spike had "attacked" an orphanage, not slaughtered it, but I probably heard it wrong. I could see him attacking an orphanage to bring home some live snacks for Dru's birthday or something. ugh. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 15, 2003 2:49:41 GMT -5
Another great review, Nan.
(and good point, KM, about Spike not being a tame hero. Neither of our soulboys are tame lions or anyone's domesticated pets. They have a history of predation on innocent and helpless people, for which it might take them eternity to atone.)
I agree with Nan that Spike's easy reference to killing his mother because she tried to shag him was slightly out of character, especially to Wesley, someone he barely knows. I still find his killing of children out of character. Children were never Spike's preferred prey; he liked a challenge. I thought the Rogerbot had said that Spike had "attacked" an orphanage, not slaughtered it, but I probably heard it wrong. I could see him attacking an orphanage to bring home some live snacks for Dru's birthday or something. ugh. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Gail, this is completely blue-sky speculation with nothing whatever to support it. That said, I consider it entirely possible Spike was the only one RWP SAW. It's quite possible drained corpses were found, and Spike was seen to kill two Watchers as a diversion and a holding action while Dru made herself scarce. Admittedly there's no evidence for that whatever except that the children DO suggest Dru's involvement, and the chances of Spike decimating an orphanage on his own and then having to kill Watchers to escape rather than just sliding out--an orphanage is, presumably, a fairly big place--seem at the least low. But Spike is, after his fashion, a gentleman and he's NOT gonna tell RWP that Dru was the killer, not he. He'll just stare down the accusation and then go on his way, keeping whatever he knows to himself. Just more fanwank, I know. I doubt we'll ever hear more of this incident, so I don't expect to have to revise it in light of new facts and can fanwank if I want to.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 15, 2003 8:50:06 GMT -5
One more thing I didn't much like...the "rapport" Angel seems to have with Eve... That also seems forced and unrealistic. Otherwise, I was really sucked into the story. I was especially blown away by the scene between Spike and PapaW-P. The line referencing their last meeting in 1963 at the orphanage made me cringe, as once again JW forces us to see Spike as something more than a "tame" hero. I thought JM played that scene perfectly--stone faced, with bravura, no apologies, but still a distant look in the eyes hinting that his remorse is too complex to patter about. Eve is trying to force the rapport between them. Since she is the only one who knows about Connor, she's the only one who can ask Angel those questions about trusting Wesley. Angel needs someone to talk to, even if it's just to "stop bottling". I don't think it will be a problem unless Angel starts actually listening to Eve's advice, and I don't think Angel would ever be that foolish.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 15, 2003 9:03:07 GMT -5
Sure, but wasn't there some background information (expositiony) that said they've been doing more than just that? Or did I imagine that scene? (Or dream it?) In the last scene between Angel & Wesley, Angel asks if they have any idea where the cyborgs came from. And whether they MAY have good guys after them. It looks to me that the jury's still out as to whether they're actually good guys or not. Major Brainflash: Just like the jury's still out on the Fang Gang taking over W&H--they have to do some bad things to accomplish some good, ie. letting the guy go free in Conviction, killing the werewolf in Unleashed. More mirroring the bad guys as Spring explained earlier?
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 15, 2003 16:43:00 GMT -5
Gail, this is completely blue-sky speculation with nothing whatever to support it. That said, I consider it entirely possible Spike was the only one RWP SAW. It's quite possible drained corpses were found, and Spike was seen to kill two Watchers as a diversion and a holding action while Dru made herself scarce. Admittedly there's no evidence for that whatever except that the children DO suggest Dru's involvement, and the chances of Spike decimating an orphanage on his own and then having to kill Watchers to escape rather than just sliding out--an orphanage is, presumably, a fairly big place--seem at the least low. But Spike is, after his fashion, a gentleman and he's NOT gonna tell RWP that Dru was the killer, not he. He'll just stare down the accusation and then go on his way, keeping whatever he knows to himself. Just more fanwank, I know. I doubt we'll ever hear more of this incident, so I don't expect to have to revise it in light of new facts and can fanwank if I want to. Fanwank away! This totally rings true to me as I understand Spike's character. Spike does have his own warped sense of good form (like Capt Hook), and he wouldn't point the finger at Dru. As for Spike's revelation to Wes at the end, the awkwardness actually works for me. This is something Spike's still coming to terms with, and I don't know that he's fully processed it yet. Besides, he's been pretty snarky towards Wes so far. He doesn't know how to deal with his feelings on this particular subject, and he doesn't know how to deal w/Wes...hence the awkward.
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Post by Karen on Nov 15, 2003 19:18:07 GMT -5
Fanwank away! This totally rings true to me as I understand Spike's character. Spike does have his own warped sense of good form (like Capt Hook), and he wouldn't point the finger at Dru. As for Spike's revelation to Wes at the end, the awkwardness actually works for me. This is something Spike's still coming to terms with, and I don't know that he's fully processed it yet. Besides, he's been pretty snarky towards Wes so far. He doesn't know how to deal with his feelings on this particular subject, and he doesn't know how to deal w/Wes...hence the awkward. Thinking about Spike just recently souled got me thinking that he must be overwhelmed with feelings of conscience he hasn't had in over 100 years.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 15, 2003 19:58:34 GMT -5
Thinking about Spike just recently souled got me thinking that he must be overwhelmed with feelings of conscience he hasn't had in over 100 years. Knowing how sensitive Spike was even w/o a soul (s5/s6), and knowing how sensitive William's soul is...It's amazing to me he isn't still a quivering heap in a basement somewhere.
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on Nov 16, 2003 8:34:56 GMT -5
Instead of calling it Nan's review we need to call it: The Nanalysis! I just love how you bring all these themes to light that I don't see in one sitting!
I also like how they accomplished the continuity without having to waste time on exposition. JW is definitely getting his cake and eating it too. I was discussing that very thing with someone yesterday. I LIKE that there is a "monster of the week" instead of a seasonal BIG BAD, yet we're still getting the interpersonal seasonal arc which is really good. I think ME is successfully combining those two things. At first I wasn't sure how they were going to pull that off, but it's working very well in my opinion.
As for Spike's comments about his mother to Wes, I didn't really see it as that much out of character. He used his trademark snark to share something personal without really giving away his feelings on it. I think he did the same in the elevator with Eve, and snarked off a moment of insecurity (his comment about Pavayne). It also doesn't tell Wesley what "really" happened between Spike and his mother. Just like [we assume] he didn't share that with Buffy and the gang.
I think by Spike and Angel both sharing those little tidbits about their parents it helps draw the 3 of them together more. Shows some commonality, even if the situations were different. They all essentially did the same thing, killed their parents and had to live with it afterwards.
Also, I think Spike has always overcompensated for William's sensitivity, which could explain why he isn't still huddled in the basement somewhere. He's used to hiding what he really feels. The entire Spike persona is based on pretending to be something else.
Again, great insight Nan and great thoughts by everyone else as well! I really hope that all the naysayers on the more "entertainment" type boards come over and read all this stuff. There is so much depth in these stories that they are just not seeing.
Dr. Who! I'd have never caught that on my own!
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Post by Sue on Nov 16, 2003 9:58:58 GMT -5
Instead of calling it Nan's review we need to call it: The Nanalysis! Also, I think Spike has always overcompensated for William's sensitivity, which could explain why he isn't still huddled in the basement somewhere. He's used to hiding what he really feels. The entire Spike persona is based on pretending to be something else. ! Nanalysis--I like that! (I also like your use of "we"--one more post than you'll no longer be a "N'ubie"!) And great point about Spike overcompensating. You hear a lot of actors talk about how shy they were and that by taking on someone else's persona they have the confidence to perform in front of an audience. Liam/Angelus never had that. What you saw was what you got. So, when he was cursed he had no inner resources or alternate persona to fall back on. This may provide some explanation as to why Angel is so different not just from Angelus, but also from Liam. He took 100 years of coming to terms with the soul to literally be "reborn" or to regrow into an entirely different person. William on the other hand had already learned to separate his inner being ( at least to some small degree) from his outer persona even before he was turned. He knew the shy, sensitve poet was/would be mocked so it wasn't something he shared very openly. He took Cecily off by herself to talk to her and was very distraught when his poem was read aloud at the party. He was more openly himself when home alone with this mother. This duel persona becomes much more pronounced as soon as he is turned. Whereas Angelus just seems to take and exaggerate all the worst qualities of Liam, "Spike" does a 180 on William's inherent personality traits. I don't think the glee and attraction to "fist and fangs" was something whcih was already a part of William, I think Spike put it on (like the duster) and literally wore the persona until it became ingrained in him. (Witness that even after turning the persona of loving-William was still initially in control in his dealings with his mother.) So, as tkent postulates, when the soul is returned, even in the face of the torment unto madness which it brings, Spike is able to wall that off and and project the persona of "Spike" to the rest of the world. Man, this brings his actions in early season 7 into wonderful focus. He slips between bouts of madness, brought on both by the soul and torment by The First, but whenever he is needed (to hunt down Nancy's worm boyfriend; to track Willow; to "save the girl") he puts on "sane Spike" much like he puts on the blue shirt. (And now I'm guessing that he I went back to the archives I might find comments like this.) Yes, he is used to hiding what he really feels--his feelings for Buffy, his woundedness when rejected (by any of them), etc. So, he can offer Wes a "comfort" via a surface glimpse of his his history with his mother, but without really accessing the deeper importance of how that affects him. So---we talk about how Angel is disconnected and "broody". For all of Spike's surface interactions he really does withhold his inner-most being very effectively. (Hence his being "terrified" after his night with Buffy-- the only time he had ever let down the inner walls and been close to anyone, on any level.) Thanks, tkent, for the observation--it's given me lots of food for additional thought about how Spike interacts with those around him. I do like the Spike, Fred friendship. I thought it reminded me of his friendship with Dawn. But Spike never interacted with Dawn as an equal--he loved her, but saw himself as her guard-dog. He seems to be more himself with Fred than anyone (altho he had a few moments of heart-to-heart with Willow on ocassion).
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on Nov 16, 2003 13:40:35 GMT -5
Does this mean I'm not a N'ubie anymore!? ;D Yea!
Thanks Sue, wonderful expansion on the little tiny thought I had in my head! I hadn't looked at his interactions with Fred/Dawn/Willow quite that way before. I wonder why he seems most "William" when interacting with Fred? Is it because Spike was trying to "get" her to help him or because he felt she was the only one that would help him? Or does he feel some other connection with her? I think except for his one moment of mentioning being "terrified" to Buffy he never was "William" to Buffy. (But then, on an entirely other topic, Buffy was never known for sharing ANYTHING so why would anyone share with her). It will also be interesting to see if his demeanor changes if his corporeal state changes. I think someone else touched on that as well.
I think he's sniffed out Eve pretty well so far, or at least is one of the few really questioning her motives and how they relate to him. I think someone else also mentioned how Angel relates to Eve. That's an odd mix there, will be interesting to see how that develops further. I really liked how though the episode was about Wesley, there were so many looks into everyone elses lives as well.
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Post by Len on Nov 17, 2003 13:46:03 GMT -5
hmmm..interesting thought - but as a former Whovian, I think this may be stretching things! Were there any Who in-jokes to go with this?
Good point - it's nice to see that we HAVEN'T lost the characterization that Wes built up last season!
One would hope so - that's why I thought the Knox barging in to interrupt was such a dumb hokey plot device.
Terrific parallel to last season - I hadn't thought of it. Does she not remember Gunn killing from her? Based on what we've seen of their memories so far, I'd think she DOES remember. So if we don't see HER contrasting the 2 events in some way, I think it'll be a slip by the writers.
Which also leaves us to wonder if Wes' dad WAS involved in some way - the idea that he was so perfectly duplicated so as to fool even Wesley is virtually unbelievable to me, unless he was involved. Wes' (apparent) failure to suspect as much SEEMS like a big plot hole to me.[/quote]
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