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Post by Len on Nov 17, 2003 13:50:22 GMT -5
Nan, great review, you always give me so much to think about. Here's my $.02... I think that not only does Wesley have issues with living up to his fathers expectations, but I believe he's also worried about becoming like his father, abusive verbally and perhaps physically. In IGYUMS it is mentioned that his father locked him under the stairs, and he was told he was never good enough for Daddy. And then in Billy, Wes stalks, taunts, and shoves Fred, so he's both physically and verbally abusive to her, much like his father was to him. And he even tells a "joke" about women with black eyes, which makes me think his father was probably physically abusive to his mother as well and Wes probably heard his father tell this very "joke". Of course Wes was under the influence of Billy and his actions couldn't be helped, but he believes underneath the surface he is capable of doing those things without Billy's influence, as is evidenced by a later exchange between him and Fred. (see below) So I think that by "killing" his father he felt like he became worse than his father, he became, not an abusive jerk, but a murderer. I don't think that knowing it was a robot is going to make up for seeing his fear of being like his father manifested. I think much broodiness will ensue. I hope that makes sense. I am trying to type, think, and make dinner all at once. At least I'm a multitasker. From I Got You Under My SkinRYAN: (in Wesley’s voice, to Wesley) All those hours locked up under the stairs, and you still weren’t good enough. Not good enough for Daddy, not good enough for the Council From BillyWesley: "Would you like to hear my theory, Fred? It's about how stupid you are. I think that after five years of living in a cave, you'll instinctively retreat to small, dark places, rather than run outside where you'd be safe. Let's finish this." W: "What do you tell a woman with two black eyes?" (shoves Fred down on the stairs) "Nothing you haven't told her twice before." (Fred runs) "No sense of humor." The episode ends with this exchange when Fred goes to Wesley's apt and asks him to come back to AI: Fred: "That wasn't you!" Wesley: "How can you know that? Something inside me was forced to the surface. Something primal." Fred: "Do you want to kill me?" Wesley: "God, no!" Fred: "It wasn't something in you, Wesley, it was something that was done to you." Wesley: "I don't know what kind of man I am anymore." Fred: "Well, I do. [smiles] You're a good man. [pause] Will I see you back in the office?" Thought I would give some of you folks who haven't caught up on all the Angel ep's some backstory. Wendywasn't there another Angel s2 ep in which we actually see Wes talking to his dad? I think it was around the time that he was dating that woman who he rescued from her nutjob father.
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Post by Len on Nov 17, 2003 14:01:10 GMT -5
Question - I seem to recall Angel (or was it someone else) "killing" the cyborgs by twisting their neck. Was this before it was found out that they were cyborgs? (I'm thinking no, b/c Angel wasn't in the opening scene, right?). But in any event, as the cyborgs appear sto be living beings, we have another example of Angel willing to kill ensouled beings to further the mission.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 17, 2003 14:21:58 GMT -5
Question - I seem to recall Angel (or was it someone else) "killing" the cyborgs by twisting their neck. Was this before it was found out that they were cyborgs? (I'm thinking no, b/c Angel wasn't in the opening scene, right?). But in any event, as the cyborgs appear sto be living beings, we have another example of Angel willing to kill ensouled beings to further the mission. I'll have to check the neck twist thing, but YES, Angel bursts through a window in the opening sequence. He's there. And the cyborgs may have *started* as human, but I don't think they are anymore. They don't have free will and appear to be animated by robotics. So I don't think we're talking living, ensouled beings here at all. Comparable to the Borg, I think...or Dr. Who's Cybermen.
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Post by Len on Nov 17, 2003 14:37:13 GMT -5
I'll have to check the neck twist thing, but YES, Angel bursts through a window in the opening sequence. He's there. cool...then Angel definitely KILLS one w/o knowing it's a cyborg. Apparently, this is just SOP for Angel now. Will Angel freely kill reall "good guys" who oppose his W&H activities too? touche!
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Post by Rachael on Nov 17, 2003 16:37:39 GMT -5
cool...then Angel definitely KILLS one w/o knowing it's a cyborg. Apparently, this is just SOP for Angel now. Will Angel freely kill reall "good guys" who oppose his W&H activities too? touche! Absolutely - it's in the teaser (as you mentioned). 'Sfar as he knew, it was a human. Angel seems to have no qualms about killing humans anymore, just so long as he defines them as "evil". VERY different approach - remember Buffy trying to save Warren, and her whole "we don't kill humans" speech? Because humans are subject to human laws? Apparently, Angel doesn't have any further respect for that ideal. And he used to. Someone said to him (I think recently, but I can't remember exactly when): "You won't hurt me. You don't kill humans." Except lately, he does. Frequently. Anybody else having a wiggins?
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Post by Len on Nov 17, 2003 17:19:27 GMT -5
Absolutely - it's in the teaser (as you mentioned). 'Sfar as he knew, it was a human. Angel seems to have no qualms about killing humans anymore, just so long as he defines them as "evil". VERY different approach - remember Buffy trying to save Warren, and her whole "we don't kill humans" speech? Because humans are subject to human laws? Apparently, Angel doesn't have any further respect for that ideal. And he used to. Someone said to him (I think recently, but I can't remember exactly when): "You won't hurt me. You don't kill humans." Except lately, he does. Frequently. Anybody else having a wiggins? and the irony here was that he may have very well been killing good guy sfor all he knew. In this case he was let off the hook b/c they were cyborgs - but ultimately, as far as we can see, those were cyborgs fighting for Good, not Evil.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 17, 2003 18:14:43 GMT -5
and the irony here was that he may have very well been killing good guy sfor all he knew. In this case he was let off the hook b/c they were cyborgs - but ultimately, as far as we can see, those were cyborgs fighting for Good, not Evil. *I'm* not letting him off the hook - any more than I'm letting Wes off the hook for killing his dad. I understand the actions in both cases - I just think they both need to take a nice long look at their inner demons - 'cause they're getting out more and more lately.
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Post by Len on Nov 17, 2003 18:34:54 GMT -5
*I'm* not letting him off the hook - any more than I'm letting Wes off the hook for killing his dad. I understand the actions in both cases - I just think they both need to take a nice long look at their inner demons - 'cause they're getting out more and more lately. I agree - but you'll notice while Wesley was at least wrestling - Angel seemed pretty comfortable with himself. Also, the rest of the Fang gang didn't raise the issue either!
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 17, 2003 18:41:37 GMT -5
Absolutely - it's in the teaser (as you mentioned). 'Sfar as he knew, it was a human. Angel seems to have no qualms about killing humans anymore, just so long as he defines them as "evil". VERY different approach - remember Buffy trying to save Warren, and her whole "we don't kill humans" speech? Because humans are subject to human laws? Apparently, Angel doesn't have any further respect for that ideal. And he used to. Someone said to him (I think recently, but I can't remember exactly when): "You won't hurt me. You don't kill humans." Except lately, he does. Frequently. Anybody else having a wiggins? This has gotta come to a head at some point, as does Angel's "unDawning" (or is that Dawning?) of Connor. A website called All Things Philosophical on BtVS (or something like that) has even started keeping a body count on souled Angel. I think this plays into the idea that Angel is not as 'human' a vampire as Spike. Spike can't actually kill anything right now anyway, but I doubt will be seeing him kill humans once he's corporeal again.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 17, 2003 19:16:51 GMT -5
This has gotta come to a head at some point, as does Angel's "unDawning" (or is that Dawning?) of Connor. A website called All Things Philosophical on BtVS (or something like that) has even started keeping a body count on souled Angel. I think this plays into the idea that Angel is not as 'human' a vampire as Spike. Spike can't actually kill anything right now anyway, but I doubt will be seeing him kill humans once he's corporeal again. Mmm. . .not sure I agree that this makes Angel less human, or that Spike would hesitate to kill humans based solely on the fact that they're human. Lots of humans judge the "evilness" of other humans and would likely enact what they thought was appropriate punishment if they could do so free of repercussions. In my view, Angel is doing just that - but for him, there's a greater danger, what with Angelus lurking so close to the surface. Spike - I'm not sure. Haven't really gotten the chance to find out, yet. He didn't kill Wood, but I'm not sure he wouldn't have if he hadn't felt guilty over Wood's mom. I just don't feel like I have enough data to be sure one way or the other. I'm very certain he'd kill to protect someone he loved, though - very much like Wes. If Buffy, Dawn, or (and I'm gonna go out on a limb at this point) Fred were threatened, I'm fairly certain he would kill humans without much in the way of regrets.
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Post by Karen on Nov 17, 2003 20:49:14 GMT -5
and the irony here was that he may have very well been killing good guy sfor all he knew. In this case he was let off the hook b/c they were cyborgs - but ultimately, as far as we can see, those were cyborgs fighting for Good, not Evil. Remember the General and his men that Buffy killed as they fled Glory? They were supposedly the good guys, out to stop Glory and destroy the key. There is so much gray area that Angel is facing that it's hard to know the good guys from the bad guys. Angel makes the hard decisions. Usually he doesn't have time to think too long on them before a decision needs to be made. I think, tho, it's being shown that his hair trigger decisions are being made a little too quickly. Spike likes a good fight. I think he'll be stepping into that gray area if he turns corporeal.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 17, 2003 22:07:39 GMT -5
Remember the General and his men that Buffy killed as they fled Glory? They were supposedly the good guys, out to stop Glory and destroy the key. There is so much gray area that Angel is facing that it's hard to know the good guys from the bad guys. Angel makes the hard decisions. Usually he doesn't have time to think too long on them before a decision needs to be made. I think, tho, it's being shown that his hair trigger decisions are being made a little too quickly. Spike likes a good fight. I think he'll be stepping into that gray area if he turns corporeal. Mostly, I agree with you. Except - Angel has, a couple of times (IMO) killed unnecessarily. For example, he killed the leader of the group that had been sent to take out the schoolkids in "Conviction", even though the battle had already been won. It wasn't exactly a cold-blooded killing, but it was premeditated. And yeah, the killing of the Knights of whatevertheywere did bother me, although I remember it differently - she didn't know they were human (and were they?) or the good guys when she killed the first few. Were there others, later, that I've forgotten?
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Post by Len on Nov 17, 2003 23:09:43 GMT -5
This has gotta come to a head at some point, as does Angel's "unDawning" (or is that Dawning?) of Connor. A website called All Things Philosophical on BtVS (or something like that) has even started keeping a body count on souled Angel. I think this plays into the idea that Angel is not as 'human' a vampire as Spike. Spike can't actually kill anything right now anyway, but I doubt will be seeing him kill humans once he's corporeal again. I wouldn't count on that- he seemed awfully willing to kill wood last year in "Lies My Parents told Me" - so I think the jury is definitely out on how soulful unchipped Spike will operate!
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Post by WinterDreamer on Nov 17, 2003 23:46:07 GMT -5
Finally had the opportunity to watch this episode and read the "Nanalysis." Insightful as always. I too found this one a little hard to watch--the byplay between Wesley and his "father" was almost painful, and painfully realistic. As a non-Whovian, it was iteresting to read about the Cybermen connection. Great job!
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Post by WinterDreamer on Nov 18, 2003 0:02:36 GMT -5
One thing that just occured to me--how did the fake Roger Wyndham -Price know exactly where to go to find the artifact that would control Angel? Having information from the defunct Watcher's Council would be easier to come by, I would think.
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