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Post by Rachael on Nov 18, 2003 0:07:36 GMT -5
One thing that just occured to me--how did the fake Roger Wyndham -Price know exactly where to go to find the artifact that would control Angel? Having information from the defunct Watcher's Council would be easier to come by, I would think. I'm thinking the jury's still out on this - 'cause if there could be a Watchers' Council, and W&H, as well as free-lancers (Giles, Dawn, Wesley, Fred) who can access the kind of information they had, it's entirely likely there could be another shadow organization out there. That said, my money's on the W.C., if only because I think it would make for great drama.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 18, 2003 0:54:18 GMT -5
I'd like the Watcher's Council to still be a going but recovering concern, because that puts another player in the game...and possibly Giles showing up sometime!
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 18, 2003 1:28:09 GMT -5
Mmm. . .not sure I agree that this makes Angel less human, or that Spike would hesitate to kill humans based solely on the fact that they're human. Lots of humans judge the "evilness" of other humans and would likely enact what they thought was appropriate punishment if they could do so free of repercussions. In my view, Angel is doing just that - but for him, there's a greater danger, what with Angelus lurking so close to the surface. Spike - I'm not sure. Haven't really gotten the chance to find out, yet. He didn't kill Wood, but I'm not sure he wouldn't have if he hadn't felt guilty over Wood's mom. I just don't feel like I have enough data to be sure one way or the other. I'm very certain he'd kill to protect someone he loved, though - very much like Wes. If Buffy, Dawn, or (and I'm gonna go out on a limb at this point) Fred were threatened, I'm fairly certain he would kill humans without much in the way of regrets. Valid points, all....Still, if Spike hadn't killed Nikki, there would've been no reason for Wood to make an attempt on Spike. If Wood had tried to dust Spike anyway, Spike would've been justified to act in self-defense. Given Spike's reaction when he realized he'd been killing again, I think it likely he'd hesitate to kill a human. He'd certainly defend someone he loved, but he would regret any killing, and he'd only kill if necessary (IMHO).
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Post by Karen on Nov 18, 2003 7:51:10 GMT -5
Mostly, I agree with you. Except - Angel has, a couple of times (IMO) killed unnecessarily. For example, he killed the leader of the group that had been sent to take out the schoolkids in "Conviction", even though the battle had already been won. It wasn't exactly a cold-blooded killing, but it was premeditated. And yeah, the killing of the Knights of whatevertheywere did bother me, although I remember it differently - she didn't know they were human (and were they?) or the good guys when she killed the first few. Were there others, later, that I've forgotten? I don't know for sure if Buffy knew they were human when she killed the first few Knights, but she also didn't stop to ask. As to whether or not they were the good guys, I think that's the point. Sometimes it's hard to tell, and Angel/Buffy/Wesley etc. make decisions on what they think is the truth. It bothered me, too when Angel supposedly killed that human in Conviction - altho I read someone here say that he didn't actually pull the trigger on the gun, that it went off in the struggle. I didn't see it that way myself, but I suppose it's possible. Either way, Angel did leave the other human alive. Angel is definitely stepping over that line on occasion.
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Post by ldelrossi on Nov 18, 2003 10:51:26 GMT -5
Nan - I really liked your idea about trust and crossing lines. It was very intuitive and made perfect sense, although of course, I didn't see it.
It did not occur to me that the cyborgs might be emissaries of the Watchers' Council. I thought they were all dead - but perhaps these are the ones terribly wounded in the bombing but not dead.
Angel is right to be concerned if he and the FG have to fight evil and good. It was scary to have that comment by Father WP that Angel was a puppet of the PTBs and then of W&H.
I thoroughly enjoyed that elevator scene between Spike and Eve because it validated what I've been thinking from the beginning: Spike is important because he is the new pair of eyes who will help the FG see what is really going on.
Eve is incredibly annoying with her cryptic comments. None of them should trust her. I like it even less that is she is following Angel around. Hopefully Spike will keep watching and will let Angel in on his suspicions.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 18, 2003 11:47:43 GMT -5
Nan - I really liked your idea about trust and crossing lines. It was very intuitive and made perfect sense, although of course, I didn't see it. It did not occur to me that the cyborgs might be emissaries of the Watchers' Council. I thought they were all dead - but perhaps these are the ones terribly wounded in the bombing but not dead. Angel is right to be concerned if he and the FG have to fight evil and good. It was scary to have that comment by Father WP that Angel was a puppet of the PTBs and then of W&H. I thoroughly enjoyed that elevator scene between Spike and Eve because it validated what I've been thinking from the beginning: Spike is important because he is the new pair of eyes who will help the FG see what is really going on. Eve is incredibly annoying with her cryptic comments. None of them should trust her. I like it even less that is she is following Angel around. Hopefully Spike will keep watching and will let Angel in on his suspicions. I agree with you on this all the way, Lori.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 18, 2003 11:52:17 GMT -5
Valid points, all....Still, if Spike hadn't killed Nikki, there would've been no reason for Wood to make an attempt on Spike. If Wood had tried to dust Spike anyway, Spike would've been justified to act in self-defense. Given Spike's reaction when he realized he'd been killing again, I think it likely he'd hesitate to kill a human. He'd certainly defend someone he loved, but he would regret any killing, and he'd only kill if necessary (IMHO). I believe that Spike will try to avoid killing innocent people. But in his mind, Nikki and Robin weren't innocent, they were combatants, trying to kill him. If humans attack Spike or people he's protecting, I'm not sure that he'll restrain himself from fighting back with all the ferocity of which he is capable.
GAIL
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Post by ldelrossi on Nov 18, 2003 12:59:31 GMT -5
I agree Gail. Wesley thought he was killing his own father when he shot the cyborg. He was protecting Fred. Wesley is human and has always had a soul yet he still felt that he had to kill "his father."
Spike is as loyal as Wesley. I could see him killing to save Fred as well. Although it was funny, Spike's determination to help Gunn against the cyborg was an example. He could have walked away and "not care." But he didn't.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 18, 2003 13:01:12 GMT -5
I don't know for sure if Buffy knew they were human when she killed the first few Knights, but she also didn't stop to ask. As to whether or not they were the good guys, I think that's the point. Sometimes it's hard to tell, and Angel/Buffy/Wesley etc. make decisions on what they think is the truth. It bothered me, too when Angel supposedly killed that human in Conviction - altho I read someone here say that he didn't actually pull the trigger on the gun, that it went off in the struggle. I didn't see it that way myself, but I suppose it's possible. Either way, Angel did leave the other human alive. Angel is definitely stepping over that line on occasion. Mmm. There's at least one soldiery-guy in Conviction who Angel kills deliberately, and after he's been subdued. Right after he says "Mercy," and just before he says "You've just seen the last of it." I'm fairly certain that wasn't an accident.
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Post by ldelrossi on Nov 18, 2003 13:05:54 GMT -5
But that same man told his men to "take him out." Isn't that self-defense?
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Post by Rachael on Nov 18, 2003 13:13:05 GMT -5
I agree Gail. Wesley thought he was killing his own father when he shot the cyborg. He was protecting Fred. Wesley is human and has always had a soul yet he still felt that he had to kill "his father." Spike is as loyal as Wesley. I could see him killing to save Fred as well. Although it was funny, Spike's determination to help Gunn against the cyborg was an example. He could have walked away and "not care." But he didn't. Absolutely. My argument all along was that I don't think that Angel killing humans, or for that matter Spike killing humans, makes them any less human. We have an vision of the ideal human, and it makes them less that. But actual humans do awful things under great stress, and sometimes only because, well, they're not very nice. I think Angel's under even more stress than usual right now, and he's making some bad decisions. He's in danger of going to the bad place, with no perfect happiness required. But it doesn't make him any less human. All of our favorites have done awful things when they were emotionally overwrought: Buffy (beating the living s**t out of Spike when she thought she'd killed Warren's ex), Willow (can I just say, flayed ALIVE?), Anya (tried and failed to get someone to curse Xander - okay, she wasn't exactly human then, but still), Wesley (kept a woman in a closet, killed his own dad), Giles (let's not get started on Giles' past), , Fred (tried to kill her professor), Gunn (actually did), even Tara (cast a spell to keep everyone from knowing she was part demon, which almost got them killed). So maybe this makes Angel more human, not less.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 18, 2003 13:14:33 GMT -5
But that same man told his men to "take him out." Isn't that self-defense? Not, in my opinion, AFTER you've got him subdued. Sure, in the heat of the fight. But this was after.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 18, 2003 13:39:29 GMT -5
Remember the General and his men that Buffy killed as they fled Glory? They were supposedly the good guys, out to stop Glory and destroy the key. There is so much gray area that Angel is facing that it's hard to know the good guys from the bad guys. Angel makes the hard decisions. Usually he doesn't have time to think too long on them before a decision needs to be made. I think, tho, it's being shown that his hair trigger decisions are being made a little too quickly. Spike likes a good fight. I think he'll be stepping into that gray area if he turns corporeal. But they were going to destroy the Key by killing Dawn. Thus, we have the whole "you can't fight evil by doing evil" argument that led to Buffy having Spike's chip removed.
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Post by Karen on Nov 18, 2003 14:42:02 GMT -5
But that same man told his men to "take him out." Isn't that self-defense? I think it's a gray area, but I'd say the whole scenario was a set-up put there specifically to make Angel make those judgement decisions. He's being played, and quite well, too.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 18, 2003 14:45:49 GMT -5
I believe that Spike will try to avoid killing innocent people. But in his mind, Nikki and Robin weren't innocent, they were combatants, trying to kill him. If humans attack Spike or people he's protecting, I'm not sure that he'll restrain himself from fighting back with all the ferocity of which he is capable.
GAIL Spike (soulless) saw Nikki as a combatant. Definitely; to the extent of hunting her down, even. Robin was trying to dust him, even tho' Robin knew Spike had a soul and was fighting for Good. Spike would fight (and kill if he had to), but ME's always gone out of their way to show Angel and Spike as different. Angel's been killing humans, some of them maybe on the side of Good, some of them not human (but he didn't know it at the time). Where Angel would kill, Spike would disable/disarm. At least I think that's where ME is headed.
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