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Post by Karen on Nov 18, 2003 14:51:56 GMT -5
But they were going to destroy the Key by killing Dawn. Thus, we have the whole "you can't fight evil by doing evil" argument that led to Buffy having Spike's chip removed. I agree. The good guys were doing evil to fight evil. So were they really good guys, and how are you supposed to tell? Just because they are human? I don't think I agree with that. Maybe that's the lesson Angel is going to learn. Or that you can't fight evil within the evil corporation. He really isn't in control of LA W&H, no matter what he was told to the contrary.
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Post by Karen on Nov 18, 2003 14:53:38 GMT -5
Mmm. There's at least one soldiery-guy in Conviction who Angel kills deliberately, and after he's been subdued. Right after he says "Mercy," and just before he says "You've just seen the last of it." I'm fairly certain that wasn't an accident. Yeah, that's the guy that some have said that the his own gun killed him because he was struggling with Angel.
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Post by Karen on Nov 18, 2003 14:58:22 GMT -5
Spike (soulless) saw Nikki as a combatant. Definitely; to the extent of hunting her down, even. Robin was trying to dust him, even tho' Robin knew Spike had a soul and was fighting for Good. Spike would fight (and kill if he had to), but ME's always gone out of their way to show Angel and Spike as different. Angel's been killing humans, some of them maybe on the side of Good, some of them not human (but he didn't know it at the time). Where Angel would kill, Spike would disable/disarm. At least I think that's where ME is headed. When did Angel kill a human that was "maybe" on the side of good? How can you tell? The cyborgs were a definite threat to Wes and Fred. They didn't look good to me. The military guys in "Conviction" were going to wipe out a whole classrroom. The W&H scientist who liked to eat werewolves was definitely a sleazy human who had no qualms about eating a werewolf who had done nothing wrong. I think Angel is making judgements based on his POV. Not sure that he's entirely wrong.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 18, 2003 15:13:45 GMT -5
When did Angel kill a human that was "maybe" on the side of good? How can you tell? The cyborgs were a definite threat to Wes and Fred. They didn't look good to me. The military guys in "Conviction" were going to wipe out a whole classrroom. The W&H scientist who liked to eat werewolves was definitely a sleazy human who had no qualms about eating a werewolf who had done nothing wrong. I think Angel is making judgements based on his POV. Not sure that he's entirely wrong. The cyborgs were a threat. Angel charged in, saw his friends in danger, and killed the cyborg. But he didn't know it was a cyborg. For all he knew, it was a human, maybe a cop or special ops guy. He didn't have any time to find out for sure. He did what a lot of us would do, acted to save his friends. But, he didn't even try to find out what was going on. He justed acted w/o thinking. I think ME's already shown us some of that - Angel killing the Grox'lar Beast, for example (plus other examples from earlier seasons). I just have the feeling ME will show Spike as being less likely to kill first and ask questions later.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 18, 2003 16:00:24 GMT -5
When did Angel kill a human that was "maybe" on the side of good? How can you tell? The cyborgs were a definite threat to Wes and Fred. They didn't look good to me. The military guys in "Conviction" were going to wipe out a whole classrroom. The W&H scientist who liked to eat werewolves was definitely a sleazy human who had no qualms about eating a werewolf who had done nothing wrong. I think Angel is making judgements based on his POV. Not sure that he's entirely wrong. I'm not even so much concerned with whether or not the person is "maybe" good or bad; my point is that those judgements (according to the ethics of the Jossverse) aren't Angel's to make. The cyborgs were a threat, so that action I understand. The commando guy - he HAD BEEN a threat, but wasn't any longer. And I don't buy the accidental death; I've rewatched it and it looks pretty much to me like Angel killed him deliberately. And the dialogue surrounding it seems to back that up. That's the one that's over the line, for sure, in my mind. I think it's interesting, because it's been a gradual change - great characterization. How much of Angelus is in Angel now? "You can't just bury stuff - it'll come right back up to get you."
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Post by Nickim on Nov 18, 2003 16:35:35 GMT -5
The cyborgs were a threat. Angel charged in, saw his friends in danger, and killed the cyborg. But he didn't know it was a cyborg. For all he knew, it was a human, maybe a cop or special ops guy. He didn't have any time to find out for sure. He did what a lot of us would do, acted to save his friends. But, he didn't even try to find out what was going on. He justed acted w/o thinking. I think ME's already shown us some of that - Angel killing the Grox'lar Beast, for example (plus other examples from earlier seasons). I just have the feeling ME will show Spike as being less likely to kill first and ask questions later. Of course, Angel acted without thinking. If he had taken time to think, his friends might have been dead.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 18, 2003 16:47:49 GMT -5
Just to let you know, I'm following along with this discussion and enjoying it very much. I think it's the most extensive one of a review/new episode (as opposed to some issue) we've had on this thread. And without many visitors dropping in to contribute to it--just us S'cubies, established or new.
I think this is just neat!
If I'm not saying things too often, it's because the discussion is proceeding just fine and I'm too busy enjoying it to interrupt.
I'll leave the sticky (the little pushpin-looking thingy that keeps this thread near the top) in place awhile longer, as the discussion is still ongoing. That will keep this thread comparatively easy to find.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 18, 2003 21:03:43 GMT -5
Of course, Angel acted without thinking. If he had taken time to think, his friends might have been dead. There was added pressure under the circs...act fast or friends die...but I still think ME is showing us Angel killing first and asking questions later and it's gonna come back to bite him.
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Post by nmcil on Nov 18, 2003 22:40:21 GMT -5
There was added pressure under the circs...act fast or friends die...but I still think ME is showing us Angel killing first and asking questions later and it's gonna come back to bite him. The potential for disaster from precipitious actions and conduct based on emotional knee-jerk reactions were depicted via Principal Wood - His revenge and Giles working for the greater good would have killed the one being who ended saving the world and closing the Hellmouth. I came away with the same impression with Angel's immediate violent reaction to the demon in Just Rewards, and in Hellbound Spike stopped him from killing (possibly) Pavayne. Angel and Wesley are both acting from positions of unconsidered and immediate response to situations. In the environment of W&H that can lead to total disaster. Enjoyed your review very much - Look forward to the next one.
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Post by Sue on Nov 18, 2003 22:47:17 GMT -5
The potential for disaster from precipitious actions and conduct based on emotional knee-jerk reactions were depicted via Principal Wood - His revenge and Giles working for the greater good would have killed the one being who ended saving the world and closing the Hellmouth. I came away with the same impression with Angel's immediate violent reaction to the demon in Just Rewards, and in Hellbound Spike stopped him from killing (possibly) Pavayne. Angel and Wesley are both acting from positions of unconsidered and immediate response to situations. In the environment of W&H that can lead to total disaster. Enjoyed your review very much - Look forward to the next one. Hey nmcil, Just so you know--even before Nan's excellent reviews are posted we start post-episode discussion right after airing on Wed. nights. Visit the Main Thread anytime and look around at several of the threads. Conversation, some on-topic, some not, is always going on in the current "Part XX" at the top of the page. Episode discussion always starts there late Wed night and continues on thru Thursday while we wait for the reviews to be posted. There is no on-topic rule for episode reactions may be interspersed with personal conversations. Watch out for Wed afternoon posting (pre-ep), we seem to have a history of getting rather um "warm" in our anticipation. We also have a weekly "guest" reviewer on the thread: My Take: Another Angelic Look. Also on the main thread there are threads for pictures, avatars, the picture of the week poll, fanfic recommendations, book recommendations and (truly worth reading) the thread marked "Nerd Alerts" started aby Diane Ullman. Lots of creativity soon there. Finally, you can go on over to the main website and peruse the fanfic, analysis and essays written by members or just click on "Profile of a S'cubie" to find out more about us a individuals. Hope you enjoy. Sue
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Post by nmcil on Nov 20, 2003 11:14:25 GMT -5
Sue - Thank you very much for the information and warm welcome to the board - I shall visit the rest of topics and join in the discussions. thanks nmcil
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Post by be on Nov 21, 2003 4:41:59 GMT -5
My first reaction when Wesley pulled the trigger on his dad was 'YES!' Followed by sympathetic pain for him, that he would have to live with having done that.
Parents get away with a lot of shit. Even after you know what they're doing is wrong, you hesitate to use any level of force to stop them because you dont want to hurt them back. But logically your parents should get no more nor less protection or consideration than a random man in the street. If someone threatens you with physical harm, you defend yourself. And if someone threatens you or the people you care about with deadly force, you stop them, with deadly force if necessary. Wes was willing to die rather than do that when only his own life was threatened. That makes me worry. But the fact that he could pull the trigger when it was someone he was close to in danger, that makes me very proud. Taking action like that, holding the line, when you've had your whole life to be taught that you arent even allowed to define where the line is, that takes so much guts. And he didnt do it angry or inhuman, he did it because it had to be done. And then he let himself react. And let his friends, odd though they are, try and support him, which can be just as hard when you're hurting. I felt last year that he'd gone too far, lost his balance and put all the lines in the wrong place, penning him in and not supporting him both at once. I think he is closer to balance now. I just worry what remembering, or learning without remembering, is going to do to that.
I'm also completely blown away at the quality of the acting that has me reacting to these stories on such a gut level. Wow all round.
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Post by ldelrossi on Nov 21, 2003 11:45:58 GMT -5
Welcome be! What an eloquent post. I too worried about Wesley after the whole baby Connor incident. I was concerned that he would be lost and wondered if ME planned on him leaving.
His affair with Lilah worried me as well since I knew she was always working for herself. I must say I was surprised to find that he was playing her as well.
My hope for him returned when we saw his determination to rescue Angel and he even fed him. A former Watcher nourishing a vampire!
I totally understand his shooting his father. I'm not an agressive person, but if someone was threatening my sons I would use any means necessary to save them. I would imagine that I would do the same for a man I loved, if I had one. Wesley has loved Fred for years. There was no other choice within him, but to save her.
I agree heartily about your parent comments. I work in a school when a good portion of students have abusive, absent, jailed, or drug-riddled parents. They have almost destroyed their children and have made their lives harder because of their behavior. It's better for the children to get away from them in many instances.
I too like the darker, more assertive Wesley. He is very knowledgeable and should have more confidence. I hated that bumbling scene when his father is watching. Angel needs his expertise and his friendship, but he is still troubled by the whole Connor thing.
Wesley will be the one who brings the mind-wipe out which will be hard on all of them, but will hopefully make things better.
Again welcome.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 21, 2003 12:16:38 GMT -5
Welcome be! What an eloquent post. I too worried about Wesley after the whole baby Connor incident. I was concerned that he would be lost and wondered if ME planned on him leaving. His affair with Lilah worried me as well since I knew she was always working for herself. I must say I was surprised to find that he was playing her as well. My hope for him returned when we saw his determination to rescue Angel and he even fed him. A former Watcher nourishing a vampire! I totally understand his shooting his father. I'm not an agressive person, but if someone was threatening my sons I would use any means necessary to save them. I would imagine that I would do the same for a man I loved, if I had one. Wesley has loved Fred for years. There was no other choice within him, but to save her. I agree heartily about your parent comments. I work in a school when a good portion of students have abusive, absent, jailed, or drug-riddled parents. They have almost destroyed their children and have made their lives harder because of their behavior. It's better for the children to get away from them in many instances. I too like the darker, more assertive Wesley. He is very knowledgeable and should have more confidence. I hated that bumbling scene when his father is watching. Angel needs his expertise and his friendship, but he is still troubled by the whole Connor thing. Wesley will be the one who brings the mind-wipe out which will be hard on all of them, but will hopefully make things better. Again welcome. Great post about dark 'n' dreamy Wesley.
Isn't it interesting that when Wesley was engaged as the official Watcher of the ranking Slayer, the career that his father had chosen for him and insisted his son excel in, Wesley was a bumbling, posturing pretentious mess. Because when Wesley went his own way and carved out his own niche as 'Rogue Demon Hunter' and then the Fang Gang's Demon Lore Scholar and eventual Boss, he became not only less posturing and pretentious and more and more real and likeable, but more and more effective as well. When the Fang Gang went to Pylea, we even saw Wesley emerge as one helluva rebel general as well, albeit in Angel's absence from his side.
Then, the minute that his father the Super-Watcher apparently returns to evaluate Wesley for future re-admission to the Watcher's hallowed ranks, Wesley loses focus in a major way and starts to bumble again.
Wesley, stay AWAY from your father and AWAY from the CoW - nothing but trouble there! Or, if Spike happens to Shanshu in the next year (which I doubt), send HIM to your father to be trained as a Watcher - that would be what Father deserves, though not what Spike does. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Karen on Nov 28, 2003 10:28:59 GMT -5
Great post about dark 'n' dreamy Wesley.
Isn't it interesting that when Wesley was engaged as the official Watcher of the ranking Slayer, the career that his father had chosen for him and insisted his son excel in, Wesley was a bumbling, posturing pretentious mess. Because when Wesley went his own way and carved out his own niche as 'Rogue Demon Hunter' and then the Fang Gang's Demon Lore Scholar and eventual Boss, he became not only less posturing and pretentious and more and more real and likeable, but more and more effective as well. When the Fang Gang went to Pylea, we even saw Wesley emerge as one helluva rebel general as well, albeit in Angel's absence from his side.
Then, the minute that his father the Super-Watcher apparently returns to evaluate Wesley for future re-admission to the Watcher's hallowed ranks, Wesley loses focus in a major way and starts to bumble again.
Wesley, stay AWAY from your father and AWAY from the CoW - nothing but trouble there! Or, if Spike happens to Shanshu in the next year (which I doubt), send HIM to your father to be trained as a Watcher - that would be what Father deserves, though not what Spike does. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Gail, your post got me thinking about how Wesley acted in S2 when Angel fired his team. Wesley seemed to get more assertive and really shined as the boss when Angel wasn't there to depend on. When they accepted Angel back into AI, and gave him the "secretary" job, Wesley started to revert back to his bumbling, insecure self. I never noticed before how he would always defer to Angel's judgement. Angel tried to stay in the background and would ask Wesley what he wanted to do, but Wesley just seemed so insecure of his own ideas. Then when Wesley was shunned by Angel for taking Connor, he went out on his own and really became the Rogue Demon Hunter. I haven't sussed out what all this means for Angel and Wesley's relationship. But maybe this break from Angel is what he has needed to get back to his more assertive and self-confident ways. I think Wes needs Angel for balance and visa versa. And just like Wesley made the decision to take Connor from Angel, Angel made the decision to take the memory of Connor from his friends. Rambling over......
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