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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 18, 2003 16:49:37 GMT -5
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Post by makd on Nov 21, 2003 20:48:19 GMT -5
Wow! Nan - another great review!
This was, beyond a doubt, the best episode of all the episodes I've seen of Angel.
Granted, I've seen, thus far, about 30 episodes since the beginning of October. Generally, I've enjoyed what I've seen. This episode just had it all, though! The fight, the backstory, the snarking, the surprise ending.
And your review was superb, too!
Thanks for taking the time to review Destiny, and to bring everything together to help us to re-live the experience and to understand it better.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 21, 2003 21:00:12 GMT -5
Wow! Nan - another great review! This was, beyond a doubt, the best episode of all the episodes I've seen of Angel. Granted, I've seen, thus far, about 30 episodes since the beginning of October. Generally, I've enjoyed what I've seen. This episode just had it all, though! The fight, the backstory, the snarking, the surprise ending. And your review was superb, too! Thanks for taking the time to review Destiny, and to bring everything together to help us to re-live the experience and to understand it better. Thanks, makd. It was a hard one to review. There's just so MUCH of it! And so many questions, so few answers. I had to change my usual format to address it. Try to do a running summary with commentary and the thing could easily have gone 50 pages!
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Post by Tapioca on Nov 21, 2003 21:48:47 GMT -5
Nan I love your reviews. ;D I have a question about what you said regarding Eve being in bed with "the enemy". Is Lindsey the enemy? I'm not so sure. I think it's Angel and the gang that's really in bed with the enemy and possibly Lindsey has returned to maybe save the good guys from getting corrupted by W&H or at least stear them in the direction to affect a real blow at W&H's power. Last time we saw Lindsey he was promising Angel to never come back to L.A. Lindsey's advice to Angel about W&H was to not allow them to make him play their game but to make W&H play his. Perhaps Lindsey has broken his promise because Angel is playing W&H's game?
What do you think?
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 21, 2003 21:54:01 GMT -5
Nan I love your reviews. ;D I have a question about what you said regarding Eve being in bed with "the enemy". Is Lindsey the enemy? I'm not so sure. I think it's Angel and the gang that's really in bed with the enemy and possibly Lindsey has returned to maybe save the good guys from getting corrupted by W&H or at least stear them in the direction to affect a real blow at W&H's power. Last time we saw Lindsey he was promising Angel to never come back to L.A. Lindsey's advice to Angel about W&H was to not allow them to make him play their game but to make W&H play his. Perhaps Lindsey has broken his promise because Angel is playing W&H's game? What do you think? At this point, I'm not even sure it is Lindsey! I agree maybe-Lindsey may be allied with the Powers That Be, so that would make him technically a good guy; but you see, I don't trust the Powers That Be, either. I think of them rather like the Greek (or Roman) gods, who have power but aren't necessarily benevolent or kind toward humankind individually or collectively. They're simply POWERS! So much, in this situation, is up for grabs, I'm not comfortable even guessing about it! Glad you're enjoying the reviews, though, Tapioca. I'm sure you're not as bland as your screen name!
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Post by Glassslipper on Nov 21, 2003 22:36:18 GMT -5
I didn't realize you did reviews of the episodes until today - and I'm glad I discovered them. I really enjoyed your review of Destiny. It hadn't occured to me that Eve-L might not be working with the Powers, that maybe there are two enemies out there for Angel and the gang to deal with. Do you think that's why the runes are there (to hide them from the Powers)? Seems like it could all get very interesting.
I also noted with a bit of annoyance the re-use of the two somebodies (slayers/souled vampires) disturbing the balance theme; maybe this time they'll resolve it.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 21, 2003 23:36:40 GMT -5
I didn't realize you did reviews of the episodes until today - and I'm glad I discovered them. I really enjoyed your review of Destiny. It hadn't occured to me that Eve-L might not be working with the Powers, that maybe there are two enemies out there for Angel and the gang to deal with. Do you think that's why the runes are there (to hide them from the Powers)? Seems like it could all get very interesting. I also noted with a bit of annoyance the re-use of the two somebodies (slayers/souled vampires) disturbing the balance theme; maybe this time they'll resolve it. Thanks for your thoughts. Thanks for yours, glassslipper. Come visit us again! At the very least, Eve-L are concealing themselves from the Senior Partners. At this point, we KNOW they're deceiving them. However, Eve's disappointment, however mild, at Spike's not having killed Angel, for me puts the idea that they're allied with the Powers That Be into the realm of speculation, not established fact. And the third possibility, that they're on their own or serving some *other* major Power (but not one of THE Powers), is still an open issue. Not enough data to even theorize, for me, at this point.
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Post by Great review on Nov 21, 2003 23:36:44 GMT -5
Nan, GREAT review! This was such a hard episode, for me anyways, to write about. I knew the material was there and yet I just couldn't wrap my head around it. You did a great job of hitting the major points of the episdoe in a clear, concise manner. I know I have more to say about your review but I want to take some time and read your review again and digest it. Again, GREAT job, Nan!!
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Lee who forgot to sign in
Guest
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Post by Lee who forgot to sign in on Nov 21, 2003 23:37:23 GMT -5
Nan, GREAT review! This was such a hard episode, for me anyways, to write about. I knew the material was there and yet I just couldn't wrap my head around it. You did a great job of hitting the major points of the episdoe in a clear, concise manner. I know I have more to say about your review but I want to take some time and read your review again and digest it. Again, GREAT job, Nan!! The above was mine. I forgot to sign in before I posted.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 21, 2003 23:42:17 GMT -5
The above was mine. I forgot to sign in before I posted. I agree that this one was very hard to analyze. Very layered and dense, with lots of emotion and meaning, but the MEANING of that meaning inconclusive and ambiguous. I think you did as good a job pinning down some of the major points as could be done in a brief review. When I'm less tired, I'll reread yours and comment there, not on my own thread.
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Post by Linda on Nov 21, 2003 23:43:00 GMT -5
Hi Nan, First of all, I wanted to say thank you for your great reviews and all of the AHA! moments they have inspired. Your comments about Angel struck a chord with me, about all of the things Angel has lost. Does he really have the Fang Gang? All this time, I've been assuming that the constraint he shows around his people had to do with the big history re-write. Still, if that were all, he would just be moving on the way he did when he gave up his humanity and Buffy in I Will Remember You. He believes, after all, that his son is in a better place. His fight with Spike seems to demonstrate that he has lost the will to TRY. Spike (IMO) had the upper hand from the start. Was Angel's sole motivation to just prevent Spike from getting to the cup first? We never heard the exact terms of his deal with W&H. In making the deal to save his son, did he sell out, not only himself, but his surrogate family? Were there additional terms? Does he see the entire deal as a monstrous betrayal of their freedom of choice? It was, after all, for freedom of choice that they ended world peace last season. If that is what he feels, then no wonder Lorne called him Atlas in a previous episode. And that would make Spike the only free agent in the family... The earth is definitely doomed.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 22, 2003 2:42:46 GMT -5
At this point, I'm not even sure it is Lindsey! I agree maybe-Lindsey may be allied with the Powers That Be, so that would make him technically a good guy; but you see, I don't trust the Powers That Be, either. I think of them rather like the Greek (or Roman) gods, who have power but aren't necessarily benevolent or kind toward humankind individually or collectively. They're simply POWERS! So much, in this situation, is up for grabs, I'm not comfortable even guessing about it! Glad you're enjoying the reviews, though, Tapioca. I'm sure you're not as bland as your screen name! Good review of an extremely complex episode, Nan. I think the Powers That Be are on the side of Good, in the abstract. But they move in very broad, mysterious, and downright inhuman ways, and hold themselves so far above the humanity they're supposedly protecting that they need intermediaries to communicate with we "lower orders". I've been surprised that neither Angel nor Wesley has addressed the issue of the Fang Gang now being completely cut off from the PTBs, bereft of Cordelia's visions. Do they really think that W&H's seers or the Black Panther/conduit to the Senior Partners will serve the same function? Hah! Not bloody likely, as Spike would say. A shame that it looks like Eve-L sent Spike to Angel and finally re-corporealized him. I was hoping that the PTBs were behind that move, bringing Spike back as a counterpoint and voice-of-truth to Angel in the belly of the beast. Whether Eve-L are working for themselves or an entity yet unseen, they have a LOT of power at their disposal. To bring a soul back from beyond as a ghost and then to return it to corporeal existence takes major mojo.... [shadow=red,left,300]GAIL [/shadow]
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 22, 2003 2:44:00 GMT -5
Hi Nan, First of all, I wanted to say thank you for your great reviews and all of the AHA! moments they have inspired. Your comments about Angel struck a chord with me, about all of the things Angel has lost. Does he really have the Fang Gang? All this time, I've been assuming that the constraint he shows around his people had to do with the big history re-write. Still, if that were all, he would just be moving on the way he did when he gave up his humanity and Buffy in I Will Remember You. He believes, after all, that his son is in a better place. His fight with Spike seems to demonstrate that he has lost the will to TRY. Spike (IMO) had the upper hand from the start. Was Angel's sole motivation to just prevent Spike from getting to the cup first? We never heard the exact terms of his deal with W&H. In making the deal to save his son, did he sell out, not only himself, but his surrogate family? Were there additional terms? Does he see the entire deal as a monstrous betrayal of their freedom of choice? It was, after all, for freedom of choice that they ended world peace last season. If that is what he feels, then no wonder Lorne called him Atlas in a previous episode. And that would make Spike the only free agent in the family... The earth is definitely doomed. We are in agreement about all of this, prokryote. About what we know, what the questions are, and what we don't know. I don't have the answers to the things you accurately identify as needing them--because the series hasn't yet given them. We can only watch, wait...and hope for the best that Angel hasn't gotten himself in too deep for retrieval.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 22, 2003 3:25:27 GMT -5
Speaking of Nan's excellent title for her review, and Drusilla's long-ago reference to "the king of cups" (seen below my avatar) at a moment when Spike and Angelus were about to fight, does anyone have any thoughts on whether the King of Cups is Angel or Spike?
I had thought it might be Spike, but Drusilla's line implying expectation of 'picnic' calls Angel to mind. Angel expectedto drink from the Cup of Perpetual Torment; and was expected to do so by his colleagues. Angel has already drunk a good deal of torment from the Cup of Life (speaking metaphorically, not the actual cup) and is fighting its poison and burdens. So I'm betting on Angel being the King of Cups mentioned by Drusilla.... [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 22, 2003 7:15:22 GMT -5
Speaking of Nan's excellent title for her review, and Drusilla's long-ago reference to "the king of cups" (seen below my avatar) at a moment when Spike and Angelus were about to fight, does anyone have any thoughts on whether the King of Cups is Angel or Spike?
I had thought it might be Spike, but Drusilla's line implying expectation of 'picnic' calls Angel to mind. Angel expectedto drink from the Cup of Perpetual Torment; and was expected to do so by his colleagues. Angel has already drunk a good deal of torment from the Cup of Life (speaking metaphorically, not the actual cup) and is fighting its poison and burdens. So I'm betting on Angel being the King of Cups mentioned by Drusilla.... [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] I thought of this Dru quote too, Gail. But it's still so amorphous, in applying it back to the actual present situation, that I decided not to bring it up in the review because I didn' t know what to say about it. Other than "Aha! There may be a connection here!" On the board, though, is a perfectly proper place to speculate, and I'm glad to do so with you.
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