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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 22, 2003 10:17:16 GMT -5
I thought of this Dru quote too, Gail. But it's still so amorphous, in applying it back to the actual present situation, that I decided not to bring it up in the review because I didn' t know what to say about it. Other than "Aha! There may be a connection here!" On the board, though, is a perfectly proper place to speculate, and I'm glad to do so with you. Angel is "the King of Dru", and given Dru's symbolism as a cup, it's possible that the writers had that reference in mind when they wrote this episode. ME does love to play with our minds, though, so I'm not taking anything for granted. Might be worth looking up the significance of the King of Cups in tarot - maybe I'll go do that; inquiring minds want to know. I'm sorry, Nan, I meant to say, great review!
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Post by Laura on Nov 22, 2003 12:45:39 GMT -5
Nan, just wanted to let you know that the link to your review is already up at Slayage.com.
And speaking of your review, I loved it! I'm in the middle of stuff right now, but I'll comment later.
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Post by Ingo B on Nov 22, 2003 14:22:38 GMT -5
Great review, great comments. It's always a pleasure to read others' takes on the show, which is steadily improving with each ep. Should be Emmy material by the end of the season!
A comment: James Marsters gets props for doing much of his own fight scene work, as evidenced by the scene's angles. Notice how most of them showed Spike's face and Angel's back? I'm guessing it's because Mr Marsters' studio kung fu is better than Mr Boreanaz's.
Though Marsters never comes close to the levels of Jet Li, Wesley Snipes, Donnie Yen, etc, he gets an "A" for effort, and considering his non-martial arts background, pulls it off well. To his credit, he's definitely better than Chuck Norris.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 22, 2003 15:20:15 GMT -5
Great review, great comments. It's always a pleasure to read others' takes on the show, which is steadily improving with each ep. Should be Emmy material by the end of the season! A comment: James Marsters gets props for doing much of his own fight scene work, as evidenced by the scene's angles. Notice how most of them showed Spike's face and Angel's back? I'm guessing it's because Mr Marsters' studio kung fu is better than Mr Boreanaz's. Though Marsters never comes close to the levels of Jet Li, Wesley Snipes, Donnie Yen, etc, he gets an "A" for effort, and considering his non-martial arts background, pulls it off well. To his credit, he's definitely better than Chuck Norris. I believe Mr. Boreanaz had undergone knee surgery at about the time this episode was filmed. So his stunt double is getting a bit more of a workout than usual. Given the recovery time, this may be true for an episode or two beyond this, depending on when the filming was done. I know we're going into reruns for the next couple of weeks and perhaps beyond that, though I hope not. All the same, you're very observant and perfectly correct about James doing the bulk of his own stunts, judging by the camera angles. Whatever it takes, he gets the job done, showing himself to be a compleat actor in this physically and emotionally demanding role. Thanks for visiting, and thanks for your comment, Ingo B!
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Post by Nickim on Nov 22, 2003 16:10:43 GMT -5
Great Nanaylisis ;D I love the fact that you admit you don't have all the answers. Not many reviewers are willing to make that admission. I can't help but wonder if the presence of 2 slayers would throw things out of balance, what would hundreds do? Wish that would be addressed. Still think Mt. Dew ties in somehow with White Lightning homebrew. Spike gets corporealized by a white flash and drinks Mt. Dew--gotta be some connection, or maybe I'm just reaching.
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Post by Karen on Nov 23, 2003 10:36:48 GMT -5
There were so many layers to the episode this week and you did a great job of peeling them back! Of course, that just leaves us with more question - isn't it great?
I like how you divided and explored it by sections. How is it all going to come together? You'd need to devote 10 pages or more to each section to try and analyse it all. No season arc my ass. Stand alone episodes? ha!
Mountain Dew's motto is to Not Hold Back - Play Hard - What are you waiting for? Spike didn't hold anything back. He took what he wanted.
When they were locking down W&H during the bleeding eye incident, one of the guards called W&H, Pandora's Box. Hmmmm?
I think Hope is a major theme. It keeps popping up all the time.
Thanks again for taking the time with your analyses, Nan. They always give me food for thought.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 23, 2003 10:43:06 GMT -5
There were so many layers to the episode this week and you did a great job of peeling them back! Of course, that just leaves us with more question - isn't it great? I like how you divided and explored it by sections. How is it all going to come together? You'd need to devote 10 pages or more to each section to try and analyse it all. No season arc my ass. Stand alone episodes? ha! Mountain Dew's motto is to Not Hold Back - Play Hard - What are you waiting for? Spike didn't hold anything back. He took what he wanted. When they were locking down W&H during the bleeding eye incident, one of the guards called W&H Pandora's Box. Hmmmm? I think Hope is a major theme. It keeps popping up all the time. Thanks again for taking the time with your analyses, Nan. They always give me food for thought. Thanks for the Pandora's box reference, Karen. I heard it but it didn't register. Perhaps some sense in which W & H IS that will become plainer in subsequent episodes. Thanks to your acuity, we'll both be watching to see if that happens. And you're certainly right about hope being a major theme. Spike has it, Angel doesn't. Where will it all end?!!?
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makd on an am board run
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Post by makd on an am board run on Nov 23, 2003 12:23:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the Pandora's box reference, Karen. I heard it but it didn't register. Perhaps some sense in which W & H IS that will become plainer in subsequent episodes. Thanks to your acuity, we'll both be watching to see if that happens. And you're certainly right about hope being a major theme. Spike has it, Angel doesn't. Where will it all end?!!? I had caught the Pandora's Box, but have been sitting on it - so much other to consider. At the time, it registered as something to get back to, and each time I've watched the episode, I've noted the Pandora's Box. I've been cogitating on it. After about 5 viewings, my theory? (ready to be ditched if another fits better) Pandora's Box held all the evil in the world - not to be loosed,but to be kept inside. What if W&H is Pandora's Box - holding all the evil (the first, maybe?), actually controlling it, reigning it in, so that ALL the evil won't be loosed. That's the coming apocalypse, and that's why the souled champvamp is so important. Whoever controls Angel controls whether or not the real evil will be loosed. Except, of course, Spike has thrown a spanner into the works.
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Post by Karen on Nov 23, 2003 12:52:23 GMT -5
I had caught the Pandora's Box, but have been sitting on it - so much other to consider. At the time, it registered as something to get back to, and each time I've watched the episode, I've noted the Pandora's Box. I've been cogitating on it. After about 5 viewings, my theory? (ready to be ditched if another fits better) Pandora's Box held all the evil in the world - not to be loosed,but to be kept inside. What if W&H is Pandora's Box - holding all the evil (the first, maybe?), actually controlling it, reigning it in, so that ALL the evil won't be loosed. That's the coming apocalypse, and that's why the souled champvamp is so important. Whoever controls Angel controls whether or not the real evil will be loosed. Except, of course, Spike has thrown a spanner into the works. W&H may be Pandora's box, but maybe the PTB are really the ones controlling it. Trying to keep all the evil in one place. I'm really worried about the conduit to the SP being gone. I think that may upset the balance because now both the conduit is gone and Cordelia, who was Angel's link to the PTB. I also think that EveL didn't let loose Spike, like I thought earlier. I think that they are opportunists and took advantage of the situation with Spike becoming corporeal. Or maybe, as some have said, they are working for the PTB. And Eve really is the link, but is a double agent. But then wouldn't that mean that they DID make Spike corporeal. Something that Darla said to Lindsey in Season 2 Lindsey might have gone off to get his soul, so to speak, and is now working for the good guys. Or maybe... ok now my head hurts.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 23, 2003 17:07:18 GMT -5
Nan, loved this episode (well duh!) and loved loved loved your review! Best one yet I pronounce it! I laughed out loud at your summation of the bloody-eyed subplot...I haven't a clue there either! Just enjoyed the whole thing - it was - 'peppy'! And you know I like pep. *smile*
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 23, 2003 17:08:58 GMT -5
Speaking of Nan's excellent title for her review, and Drusilla's long-ago reference to "the king of cups" (seen below my avatar) at a moment when Spike and Angelus were about to fight, does anyone have any thoughts on whether the King of Cups is Angel or Spike?
I had thought it might be Spike, but Drusilla's line implying expectation of 'picnic' calls Angel to mind. Angel expectedto drink from the Cup of Perpetual Torment; and was expected to do so by his colleagues. Angel has already drunk a good deal of torment from the Cup of Life (speaking metaphorically, not the actual cup) and is fighting its poison and burdens. So I'm betting on Angel being the King of Cups mentioned by Drusilla.... [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Since Spike has just become corporeal again, "alive" after being "dead," could we consider it his (re)birthday? "King of Cups" (I had forgotten the feminine association of cups)-- maybe there's another reason why Spike was second w/Dru and Buffy. Angel(us) hurts/breaks women, Spike fixes them. Or could it be that Spike is more in touch with his anima (Jung's feminine principle). This fits into my theory that Spike represents the male as feminist. Angel assumes Buffy and Spike were lovers after Spike won back his soul. Interesting Spike doesn't try to set him right on the matter. Spike is, in his own way, a gentleman, and will not sully the lady's reputation. As for the bleeding eye madness, let me just throw this out: a flash of light (insight), bleeding eyes (the organs of sight), Harmony can "see" Spike doesn't really want her. Gunn can "see" Eve is involved in what's happening. Great work as usual, Nan! ;D
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Post by NancyT on Nov 23, 2003 18:40:22 GMT -5
Nan.. I am grateful to read such an intelligent, well thought out, well written review.
About the Eyes, the bleeding eyes. I was wondering if it could be something like "Seeing Red". A metaphor of being angry... or mad, thus the madness descends on those infected.
Here all the infected can see is everything through a 'blood-red-view'. So, Harmony, seeing red with Spike rails off about how angry she is with him and her issues with him.
How does this idea fit?
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 23, 2003 18:40:45 GMT -5
Since Spike has just become corporeal again, "alive" after being "dead," could we consider it his (re)birthday? "King of Cups" (I had forgotten the feminine association of cups)-- maybe there's another reason why Spike was second w/Dru and Buffy. Angel(us) hurts/breaks women, Spike fixes them. Or could it be that Spike is more in touch with his anima (Jung's feminine principle). This fits into my theory that Spike represents the male as feminist. Angel assumes Buffy and Spike were lovers after Spike won back his soul. Interesting Spike doesn't try to set him right on the matter. Spike is, in his own way, a gentleman, and will not sully the lady's reputation. As for the bleeding eye madness, let me just throw this out: a flash of light (insight), bleeding eyes (the organs of sight), Harmony can "see" Spike doesn't really want her. Gunn can "see" Eve is involved in what's happening.Great work as usual, Nan! ;D That sounds like an excellent explanation, LadyDi--seeing the most painful truths in your immediate situation--like nobody bothering to replace the toner! If this affliction recurs, be assured I shall steal this theory from you! (With attribution, of course!)
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 23, 2003 18:41:07 GMT -5
Occurs to me the scenes btwn Spike and Harmony in this ep. continue to play out the Buffy/Spike connection. Spike is using Harmony to fill a need after returning from the dead, and it comes back to bite him (literally, and much sooner). Harmony is often ridiculed as a ditzy blonde, but I really think ME's trying to show her as something more. She doesn't agree to go w/Spike until he cranks up the charm (be honest, ladies, could you resist?). After the madness kicks in, she calls Spike on his behavior. He relents, but she's enraged, and he has to subdue her. I don't think we'll see any more hanky-panky btwn the two of them after this. We've seen Harmony trying to overcome her feelings for Spike before in BtVS. He's handsome and charming, but not the guy for her. Will she be able to overcome her limitations? Will we see Harmony evolve? Perhaps.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 23, 2003 18:43:03 GMT -5
That sounds like an excellent explanation, LadyDi--seeing the most painful truths in your immediate situation--like nobody bothering to replace the toner! If this affliction recurs, be assured I shall steal this theory from you! (With attribution, of course!) Considering your stated policy of only stealing from the best, I would consider it an honor!
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