|
Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 9, 2003 23:51:43 GMT -5
It's just like me to come in at the end of an interesting discussion. I guess I don't think that the kind of interplay we're seeing between Spike and Angelus here has to be an either/or thing. I imagine that it's meant to be both a dominance ritual and homoerotic; and it's presence in this episode neither implies nor denies the possibility of a physical relationship either then or later. However, I don't think that we can discount the possibility of William having some familiarity with such activity. English "public" schools have a reputation for--well--intimacy between same sex students. A young man of William's class might well have had some exposure to, if not personal experience with, homosexuality. He would not necessarily have seen it as repugnant, even if his romantic attentions were largely focused on young, unattainable women. I was thinking of the public school thing with last episode. When Spike reports about Wes being 'head boy." Come on Spikey- you must know what a "head boy" is! If he didn't know about it from his human life- he would of at least read Harry Potter, or maybe seen the movie. That really bugged me. I'm never sure, though, how much of their human lives vamps are supposed to remember once they've turned. Darla didnt remember it at all. (Granted- it had been centuries.) With the homoerotic action- maybe Angel wanted to express to William how the "slaughter of innocents" was his greatest passion- and perhaps the activity closest to his heart. Hmmm...
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Dec 10, 2003 1:07:21 GMT -5
I was thinking of the public school thing with last episode. When Spike reports about Wes being 'head boy." Come on Spikey- you must know what a "head boy" is! If he didn't know about it from his human life- he would of at least read Harry Potter, or maybe seen the movie. That really bugged me. I'm never sure, though, how much of their human lives vamps are supposed to remember once they've turned. Darla didnt remember it at all. (Granted- it had been centuries.) With the homoerotic action- maybe Angel wanted to express to William how the "slaughter of innocents" was his greatest passion- and perhaps the activity closest to his heart. Hmmm...It's occurred to me that certainly by Angelus' standards, new vamp William is an innocent, and Angelus is drooling to coarsen, humiliate, and corrupt him. (Sorry, TLV--again, I intended to quote and inadvertently modified. I put it back the way it was, but that's why your post shows up as edited by me.)
|
|
|
Post by WinterDreamer on Dec 10, 2003 2:27:23 GMT -5
The William we met in FOOL FOR LOVE seemed very old-fashioned and conservative in terms of passion, also one to find that love from afar was easier than all that messy sex stuff. I think he was a virgin prior to vampage by Dru. GAIL I think that it was Julia who mentioned (I think the post was on the Interviews and Articles forum--the thread was about a recent JW interview) that William's hair, dress and attitude in FFL could be seen to be influenced by the pre-Raphaelites, who were considered to be rebels of a sort. I think she's on to something there. Poetry was a radical art form. I don't think that was lost on William. I think he thought of himself as a rebel even then. Just one who still lived with his mother! (I've known one or two of those in RL )
|
|
|
Post by DaveCrenshaw on Dec 10, 2003 7:14:24 GMT -5
I was thinking of the public school thing with last episode. When Spike reports about Wes being 'head boy." Come on Spikey- you must know what a "head boy" is! If he didn't know about it from his human life- he would of at least read Harry Potter, or maybe seen the movie. That really bugged me. I'm never sure, though, how much of their human lives vamps are supposed to remember once they've turned. Darla didnt remember it at all. (Granted- it had been centuries.) With the homoerotic action- maybe Angel wanted to express to William how the "slaughter of innocents" was his greatest passion- and perhaps the activity closest to his heart. Hmmm... I'm sure Spike knew what a head boy was. He still just found it funny, especially when applied to Wesley.
|
|
|
Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 10, 2003 13:01:17 GMT -5
It's occurred to me that certainly by Angelus' standards, new vamp William is an innocent, and Angelus is drooling to coarsen, humiliate, and corrupt him. (Sorry, TLV--again, I intended to quote and inadvertently modified. I put it back the way it was, but that's why your post shows up as edited by me.) ITA- you put it much better than I did. TLV For the record- I don't think William was averse to the messy sex stuff, I just don't think he'd gotten any. Why? I assume it's because he's only ever wanted the unattainable. Random though- It's interesting how much familiarity Spike has with ways to seduce women given, as far as we know, he's only ever had three girlfriends (Dru, Harm, and Buffy.) In School Hard he has that great line, "Who do you want me to be?" and in Harsh Light of Day he sayds, "Did he play the sensitive lad and get you to seduce him, that's a good trick." I've often wondered when he got all this dating expertise. Toying with victims? He's much better at dating than Angel. I can't remember the exact dialogue, but I remeber Buffy berating Angel for not going to the bronze to meet her. She is like, after 200 years of dating don't you know what a girl means when she says "maybe I'll be there." Then again, maybe Angel was just playing hard to get. TLV
|
|
Juliahistoricalgeek
Guest
|
Post by Juliahistoricalgeek on Dec 10, 2003 13:15:24 GMT -5
I think that it was Julia who mentioned (I think the post was on the Interviews and Articles forum--the thread was about a recent JW interview) that William's hair, dress and attitude in FFL could be seen to be influenced by the pre-Raphaelites, who were considered to be rebels of a sort. I think she's on to something there. Poetry was a radical art form. I don't think that was lost on William. I think he thought of himself as a rebel even then. Just one who still lived with his mother! (I've known one or two of those in RL ) Actually, male as well as female virginity was one of the ideals of the PreRaphs, so even William's lack of experience would be considered rebellious, then. The Power Elite/Establisment thing involved LOTS of nasty behavior on the part of men prior to and just after marriage; V. Sackville-West's The Edwardians shows the tail-end of that behavior and its consequences but reading the biography of her Grandfather, for instance, gives a pretty good idea of just what kind of sexual, social, and financial hijinks was considered the norm for upper-class men in the Victorian period. Julia, although Trollope's political ovels have that as one of the many subtexts
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Dec 10, 2003 14:19:59 GMT -5
It's just like me to come in at the end of an interesting discussion. I guess I don't think that the kind of interplay we're seeing between Spike and Angelus here has to be an either/or thing. I imagine that it's meant to be both a dominance ritual and homoerotic; and it's presence in this episode neither implies nor denies the possibility of a physical relationship either then or later. However, I don't think that we can discount the possibility of William having some familiarity with such activity. English "public" schools have a reputation for--well--intimacy between same sex students. A young man of William's class might well have had some exposure to, if not personal experience with, homosexuality. He would not necessarily have seen it as repugnant, even if his romantic attentions were largely focused on young, unattainable women. I realize I risk offending (again), but I've been wanting an opportunity to discuss homoeroticism and my aversion to Angelus/Spike fiction. It isn't homoeroticism per se that bothers me - Hello, Anne Rice fan here! What bothers me is that it's all too easy to imagine Angelus using newlyVamped William in the most painful and degrading way he (Angelus) could devise. I'll allow that some of the better slash stories could address this issue. I'll even go so far as to say that the best of these stories probably offer redemption and forgiveness akin to what Buffy and Spike found in s7 of BtVS. On the whole, I'm just not interested in reading stories where Angel(us) rapes William and he's supposed to like it. Glah!
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Dec 10, 2003 15:34:21 GMT -5
The William we met in FOOL FOR LOVE seemed very old-fashioned and conservative in terms of passion, also one to find that love from afar was easier than all that messy sex stuff. I think he was a virgin prior to vampage by Dru.
What I would like to see is if, in the future, Spike can fall in love with a woman who is neither unattainable nor a prior bedmate of Angel/Angelus. I wonder how much of his pattern of falling in love with unattainable women was a defense mechanism or a reflection of his insecurity. Poor William/Spike wasn't good enough to fall in love with someone who was likely to reciprocate, so he fell instead for women who were likely to despise him or use him. (or both)
Fred would be perfect for Spike, but I like their friendship, and I think Fred definitely does NOT want any monster in her man. (or she would be with Wesley, who loves her more than I think Knox ever could)
GAIL I like the Spike & Fred friendship too much to risk a romantic attachment. I kinda like Mary KD's suggestion of a Spike/Anne 'ship (altho' Anne might recognize Spike from Ford's club). Spike doesn't love Harmony, but he did have a relationship with her and she's never had an intimate relationship w/Angel. I think Spike now realizes how much Harmony is capable of feeling, and will develop a nice friendship w/her as well. It's gonna be another big difference btwn Spike and Angel. Spike can be friends with women. Cordy's the only woman Angel's ever seen as a friend (IMO).
|
|
|
Post by makd on Dec 10, 2003 16:39:22 GMT -5
ITA- you put it much better than I did. TLV For the record- I don't think William was averse to the messy sex stuff, I just don't think he'd gotten any. Why? I assume it's because he's only ever wanted the unattainable. Random though- It's interesting how much familiarity Spike has with ways to seduce women given, as far as we know, he's only ever had three girlfriends (Dru, Harm, and Buffy.) In School Hard he has that great line, "Who do you want me to be?" and in Harsh Light of Day he sayds, "Did he play the sensitive lad and get you to seduce him, that's a good trick." I've often wondered when he got all this dating expertise. Toying with victims? He's much better at dating than Angel. I can't remember the exact dialogue, but I remeber Buffy berating Angel for not going to the bronze to meet her. She is like, after 200 years of dating don't you know what a girl means when she says "maybe I'll be there." Then again, maybe Angel was just playing hard to get. TLV ITA. When I first saw, "School Hard", I recall an intake of breath when Spike asked Sheila, "Who do you want me to be?". And, as you said, "in Harsh Light of Day, "Did he play the sensitive lad and get you to seduce him, that's a good trick.'" Yeah, I thought, after seeing Fool for Love, then seeing In the Harsh Light of Day again, -- William must have done this as Vamp!William, before he became Spike!William. Spike is clearly skilled at the art of seduction.
|
|
|
Post by WinterDreamer on Dec 10, 2003 23:36:08 GMT -5
Julia wrote:
Actually, male as well as female virginity was one of the ideals of the PreRaphs, so even William's lack of experience would be considered rebellious, then.
The Power Elite/Establisment thing involved LOTS of nasty behavior on the part of men prior to and just after marriage; V. Sackville-West's The Edwardians shows the tail-end of that behavior and its consequences but reading the biography of her Grandfather, for instance, gives a pretty good idea of just what kind of sexual, social, and financial hijinks was considered the norm for upper-class men in the Victorian period.
Julia, although Trollope's political ovels have that as one of the many subtexts <END QUOTE>
Sorry Julia, but I don't know how to quote you when you're not able to log-in--BTW, I hope that's fixed soon!
If I'm not confusing my chronology, William post-dates the pre-Raphaelites by a few decades; for that reason, even though his working class pretensions seem to allude to pre-Raphaelite ideals, he (or the writers) may have been adding a little Byron or (William's contemporary) Wilde to the mix--after all, William was a poet, not a painter. And both Byron and Wilde are associated with a less conventional sexuality.
Not trying to argue that William necessarily was experienced sexually in any (either?) way, just that he might have aspired to more experience.
|
|
|
Post by WinterDreamer on Dec 10, 2003 23:43:40 GMT -5
Actually, male as well as female virginity was one of the ideals of the PreRaphs, so even William's lack of experience would be considered rebellious, then. The Power Elite/Establisment thing involved LOTS of nasty behavior on the part of men prior to and just after marriage; V. Sackville-West's The Edwardians shows the tail-end of that behavior and its consequences but reading the biography of her Grandfather, for instance, gives a pretty good idea of just what kind of sexual, social, and financial hijinks was considered the norm for upper-class men in the Victorian period. Julia, although Trollope's political ovels have that as one of the many subtexts OK--now I can quote. I guess I just don't quite know what I'm doing Anyway, my reply is in my previous post if you're interested.
|
|
|
Post by RAKSHA on Dec 11, 2003 1:18:31 GMT -5
I like the Spike & Fred friendship too much to risk a romantic attachment. I kinda like Mary KD's suggestion of a Spike/Anne 'ship (altho' Anne might recognize Spike from Ford's club). Spike doesn't love Harmony, but he did have a relationship with her and she's never had an intimate relationship w/Angel. I think Spike now realizes how much Harmony is capable of feeling, and will develop a nice friendship w/her as well. It's gonna be another big difference btwn Spike and Angel. Spike can be friends with women. Cordy's the only woman Angel's ever seen as a friend (IMO). As I and others have commented before, Spike relates better to females than he does to males. He's always been able to make friends with women, even in non-sexual ways. Now that Spike's running with the (mostly) boys in a gang headed by Angel rather than Buffy, I hope he will learn to be a friend to the guys as well.
Doesn't Angel see Fred as a friend?
GAIL
|
|
|
Post by DaveCrenshaw on Dec 11, 2003 7:58:17 GMT -5
I like the Spike & Fred friendship too much to risk a romantic attachment. I kinda like Mary KD's suggestion of a Spike/Anne 'ship (altho' Anne might recognize Spike from Ford's club). Spike doesn't love Harmony, but he did have a relationship with her and she's never had an intimate relationship w/Angel. I think Spike now realizes how much Harmony is capable of feeling, and will develop a nice friendship w/her as well. It's gonna be another big difference btwn Spike and Angel. Spike can be friends with women. Cordy's the only woman Angel's ever seen as a friend (IMO). Don't discount Angel's relationships with Buffy, Fred, Kate, Faith or Willow, or even for a time, Darla (while she was human, or pregnant with Connor); all these women were quite close to Angel, many very close. And before you argue that Buffy was his love interest, so was Cordy.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Dec 11, 2003 8:22:41 GMT -5
ITA. When I first saw, "School Hard", I recall an intake of breath when Spike asked Sheila, "Who do you want me to be?". And, as you said, "in Harsh Light of Day, "Did he play the sensitive lad and get you to seduce him, that's a good trick.'" Yeah, I thought, after seeing Fool for Love, then seeing In the Harsh Light of Day again, -- William must have done this as Vamp!William, before he became Spike!William. Spike is clearly skilled at the art of seduction. Spike has only had three "girlfriends" - Dru, Harmony, & Buffy. He's totally devoted to Dru and then to Buffy - and even with Harmony, we don't get the impression he is "playing around" on her, except in his head (dreaming of Buffy). Spike is never portrayed as a "playboy" type - for all his sexy talk, there always seems to be a bit too much of William left in him for that. BUT - he's been a vampire for over 100 yrs; he's become skilled at the art of identifying and luring victims. That's what he's doing when he so effectively lures Shiela, and I think we can guess it is something he has done many, many times before (bringing Dru "beautiful dresses, with beautiful girls in them").
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Dec 11, 2003 9:51:21 GMT -5
As I and others have commented before, Spike relates better to females than he does to males. He's always been able to make friends with women, even in non-sexual ways. Now that Spike's running with the (mostly) boys in a gang headed by Angel rather than Buffy, I hope he will learn to be a friend to the guys as well.
Doesn't Angel see Fred as a friend?
GAIL I think Fred is more than a friend to Angel. She's family. Sorry to take the conversation to a sidebar, but after rewatching "Just Rewards" last night, I can't help but feel that Spike will somehow "replace" Angel in Angel's family. When Spike was telling Angel how he and Hainsley were going to take over his body, it just struck me that even though it was Spike's and Angel's "plan", that something rang true in what Spike told Angel: Just sayin' - rocky road ahead.
|
|