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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Dec 21, 2003 23:46:11 GMT -5
I think that the "hidden river" is the metaphor for blood or fount of elixir of life and that Buffy, like you state, was the source of a rediscovery of "the self" of Spike and Angel. She was the source for change and with Spike she was guide for his entire journey, the reason he was able to reignite his spark. Not sure what the protocals (sp?) are on this board - really love visiting this board and seeing all the great reviews from Nan and what the members ideas. nmcil, I don't know what problem(s) you are having. If you look down to the Forum Jump at the bottom righthand corner, you'll find General Board Help and FAQ. Perhaps some of your questions may be answered there. If not, you can IM any of the technopagans (David, Rae, Vlad) and ask: you get there by clicking on members, then alphabetical, and choosing their names, then sending them an Instant Message. Or if you specify what you're having problems with HERE, as a post, I or another of the people who visit this topic will be glad to take a crack at it.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Dec 21, 2003 23:49:49 GMT -5
Did you say "speculate"? That is the magic word. Nan said: The present Cup is located in The Columns, a half-buried opera house in Death Valley in Nevada. Opera is the plural of Latin opus, meaning work or deed, action. So we have a female Cup of Perpetual Torment that is a precursor (“harbinger”) to mortal life, in the Valley of Death, in a place representing works or deeds. Sounds a lot like Life, to me. So I’m not yet prepared to dismiss the Cup, and all that goes with it, as an empty fabrication. Too many resonances here.What if the "cup" was Buffy? And both Angel and Spike were "reborn" after "drinking" from her? So, they already both drank out of the "cup of perpetual torment/life". That part of the prophecy is already fulfilled. <snip> The opera house is in Death Valley. Nan said that the Valley of Death represents works or deeds (W&H?). In one part during the fight between Angel and Spike, they were actually on the stage in the opera house. And the prophecy said that "it isn't over until the fat lady sings'. So who is the "fat lady"? I think there is a real cup, and both Spike and Angel already drank from it - Buffy. And when they did, she gave them both a reason to live. <snip> Picking a small nit, Karen, I said that the word *opera* means works/deeds; I assume Death Valley, specified by name, represents (cough) death. If you reread the part of my review you quoted, I think it says that. (I've bolded it for easier identification.) Concerning your interesting notion of Buffy as the cup, I take that up in a post of its own, below.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Dec 21, 2003 23:54:04 GMT -5
Buffy as the cup.
I'm a little dubious that Buffy could be the cup, already "drunk from" in some sense or other. The mythic resonance is right, but...Buffy herself is not a part of Angel the Series. So I doubt the writers would want to make viewers stretch beyond the series for the meaning of this apparently fairly important prophecy. It's not a mythic reason, just a writerly reason. I think that the meaning of the propecy must reside within what's already been established, or is *to* be established, within Angel the Series, not referenced off to another series, albeit a related one.
If that connection is overtly made, I'll accept it--again, the cup as female and Buffy as the central woman both vamps have related to powerfully and changed because of is a genuinely possible interpretation. But I discount it for the moment because it's extrinsic to Angel the Series.
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Post by LadyDi on Dec 22, 2003 14:53:33 GMT -5
Okay, I must not be making myself clear. I never said Angel didn't like women, or that he viewed them exactly as Liam did. I believe I said Angel's views of women were formed in Liam's time and place. They have changed/are changing (sloooooowly) over time. However, I do strongly feel that Angel is less likely to view a woman as a friend unless he has some other connection to her first. He had to get to know Cordy and Fred to realize they were people who just happened to be women. Angel thinks of women as women first and people second. Spike thinks of women as people first and women second (IMO).
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 22, 2003 16:14:09 GMT -5
Buffy as the cup.I'm a little dubious that Buffy could be the cup, already "drunk from" in some sense or other. The mythic resonance is right, but...Buffy herself is not a part of Angel the Series. So I doubt the writers would want to make viewers stretch beyond the series for the meaning of this apparently fairly important prophecy. It's not a mythic reason, just a writerly reason. I think that the meaning of the propecy must reside within what's already been established, or is *to* be established, within Angel the Series, not referenced off to another series, albeit a related one. If that connection is overtly made, I'll accept it--again, the cup as female and Buffy as the central woman both vamps have related to powerfully and changed because of is a genuinely possible interpretation. But I discount it for the moment because it's extrinsic to Angel the Series. My guess would be that Buffy is not, in any literal way, "the cup," though I definitely think, if you listen to those two discussing the cup, it is no coincidence that they could be discussing Buffy. I see it as metaphorical though, not literal.
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Post by LadyDi on Dec 22, 2003 16:52:58 GMT -5
My guess would be that Buffy is not, in any literal way, "the cup," though I definitely think, if you listen to those two discussing the cup, it is no coincidence that they could be discussing Buffy. I see it as metaphorical though, not literal. ITA. Angel literally drank from Buffy, but Spike never did, IIRC. Spike, did, however, say he would make Buffy his challace (I forget which ep., s4 or s5). So we have a link btwn Buffy and the cup, as well as a link btwn the cup and the cup of Christ (aka, the Holy Grail). We've also gotten links btwn Spike and Christ (!). Spike on the cross in Beneath You, calling Buffy "lamb" in Chosen (had he ever called her that before?), wielding the cross as a weapon (against Angel!) in Destiny, and his oh-so-snarky use of the word "saviour" in relation to Angel in the same ep. Interestingly, Giles refers to the Gem of Amara as a "vampire Holy Grail" in s4. It is Spike who does all the work for it, and Angel who ultimately receives and then rejects it. Turnabout being fair play, ME seems to be suggesting that Spike will now get Angel's Gem of Amara. Whether or not he actually does remains to be seen.
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Post by Nickim on Dec 22, 2003 17:06:24 GMT -5
ITA. Angel literally drank from Buffy, but Spike never did, IIRC. Spike, did, however, say he would make Buffy his challace (I forget which ep., s4 or s5). So we have a link btwn Buffy and the cup, as well as a link btwn the cup and the cup of Christ (aka, the Holy Grail). We've also gotten links btwn Spike and Christ (!). Spike on the cross in Beneath You, calling Buffy "lamb" in Chosen (had he ever called her that before?), wielding the cross as a weapon (against Angel!) in Destiny, and his oh-so-snarky use of the word "saviour" in relation to Angel in the same ep. Interestingly, Giles refers to the Gem of Amara as a "vampire Holy Grail" in s4. It is Spike who does all the work for it, and Angel who ultimately receives and then rejects it. Turnabout being fair play, ME seems to be suggesting that Spike will now get Angel's Gem of Amara. Whether or not he actually does remains to be seen. Wow, great points. I still tend to agree with Nan & Spring on whether Buffy is the "cup."
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Post by LadyDi on Dec 22, 2003 17:15:31 GMT -5
Wow, great points. I still tend to agree with Nan & Spring on whether Buffy is the "cup." Thanks. I believe Buffy is the cup only in a metaphorical sense. She's been pivotal to the development of both Angel and Spike. There's one big difference, tho', IMO. Buffy was good for Angel, but he wasn't as good for her. Buffy was good for Spike (even if not always good to Spike). But Spike was good for her too, and I think that's a really big deal in the Jossverse. For all the negative/realistic (depending on your POV) portrayals of men in the Jossverse, it's important to remember that men and women ultimately depend on one another.
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Post by Karen on Dec 22, 2003 19:43:27 GMT -5
My guess would be that Buffy is not, in any literal way, "the cup," though I definitely think, if you listen to those two discussing the cup, it is no coincidence that they could be discussing Buffy. I see it as metaphorical though, not literal. I see your points, and you're probably right. But aren't prophecies written in metaphors? And didn't Sirk say something about having to explain metaphors? Like in: 'Don't tell me I have to explain metaphors to you?' The cup *could* be a metaphor for a woman, and not an actual cup, as in the common drinking utensil. EveL set Angel and Spike up to chase after the cup. And it was filled with Mountain Dew - obviously fake. As was the prize it was supposed to represent.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Dec 22, 2003 22:26:03 GMT -5
I see your points, and you're probably right. But aren't prophecies written in metaphors? And didn't Sirk say something about having to explain metaphors? Like in: 'Don't tell me I have to explain metaphors to you?' The cup *could* be a metaphor for a woman, and not an actual cup, as in the common drinking utensil. EveL set Angel and Spike up to chase after the cup. And it was filled with Mountain Dew - obviously fake. As was the prize it was supposed to represent. Karen, I'm still not persuaded that the cup is "obviously fake." If you have a real, actual Grail and fill it with soda, how does that invalidate the container? I'm not saying that the cup *is* the actual cup, just that on present evidence nothing rules out that it *could* be.
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Post by nmcil on Dec 23, 2003 12:23:44 GMT -5
Could the metaphor be "vampire Holy Grail" because the gem allows vampires to "live in the light," there are two possible ways of reading it - (1) living in the literal sunlight (2) living in The Light (the transformation that ensouled vampires experience, going out of the dark realm into the light. Spike and Buffy in season six reference this idea. In Chosen there is also the Holy Grail (the scythe) reference.
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Post by nmcil on Dec 23, 2003 12:56:25 GMT -5
Thanks. I believe Buffy is the cup only in a metaphorical sense. She's been pivotal to the development of both Angel and Spike. There's one big difference, tho', IMO. Buffy was good for Angel, but he wasn't as good for her. Buffy was good for Spike (even if not always good to Spike). But Spike was good for her too, and I think that's a really big deal in the Jossverse. For all the negative/realistic (depending on your POV) portrayals of men in the Jossverse, it's important to remember that men and women ultimately depend on one another. I think that you are so right - this is the reason I have never really liked the Buffy/Angel relationship. I believe that Buffy was totally overwhelmed by emotions and that at her life experiences did not support the reality of that relationship. Yes, she ultimately did her duty but at what cost? Not only were innocent people killed and victimized, she also put up emotional walls that effected her for a very long time. Giles himself states that Buffy & Spike help and depend on each other now. Buffy/Angel was all love and desire that brought forth a demon - Buffy/Spike was all darkness and need and it finally changed a demon into a man & hero.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 23, 2003 13:27:17 GMT -5
Karen, I'm still not persuaded that the cup is "obviously fake." If you have a real, actual Grail and fill it with soda, how does that invalidate the container? I'm not saying that the cup *is* the actual cup, just that on present evidence nothing rules out that it *could* be. We'd have to go all the way back to the prophecy Sirk read - that whole cup reference is presented to us as made up by Sirk. So, the first question isn't "is the cup the real cup?" The first question is whether there is even any cup involved in the Shanshu at all. My best guess would be that there is no cup involved at all - which is surely a guess, yes. It is a guess that I base on Sirk's hightailing it out of there. It gave me the overall impression he was lying from the get-go, saying what Eve told him to say to set up Spike and Angel. But that doesn't invalidate the idea that the conversation Spike and Angel had about the cup (which they believed to be real at that point) can apply figuratively to Buffy.
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Post by Karen on Dec 23, 2003 15:29:01 GMT -5
We'd have to go all the way back to the prophecy Sirk read - that whole cup reference is presented to us as made up by Sirk. So, the first question isn't "is the cup the real cup?" The first question is whether there is even any cup involved in the Shanshu at all. My best guess would be that there is no cup involved at all - which is surely a guess, yes. It is a guess that I base on Sirk's hightailing it out of there. It gave me the overall impression he was lying from the get-go, saying what Eve told him to say to set up Spike and Angel. But that doesn't invalidate the idea that the conversation Spike and Angel had about the cup (which they believed to be real at that point) can apply figuratively to Buffy. Is the whole cup reference made up or just the interpretation and where to find it? You may be right, and all of it is made up. Hmmm, seems kind of a waste to have everything about the cup a lie.
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 23, 2003 17:52:30 GMT -5
I'm jumping a bit from the cup discussion, because i just, finally, saw Lies my Parents Told Me yesterday and I'm seeing the world through a whole new set of eyes.
When Drucilla had sex w/ Angel, of course i still think Angel was being a jerk, but I now understand why Dru may have been "running to Daddy." I can totally understand being really annoyed at Willie. Not only is he kind've inconsiderate- he's just run home to mommy, and wants her to spend eternity with his mother.
The look on Dru's face when she says, "you want your mother to come wiff us?" is just proceless! I've never been one to think Dru is crazy- she's just too spot-on when it counts.
Happy Holidays TLV
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