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Post by Spring Summers on Nov 24, 2003 12:58:48 GMT -5
I agree with you about Angel. He does like the box, and the feeling of not being in control of things is really getting to him. Spike, besides being ahead of Angel right now, has also been taking Angel's stuff. Since he beat Angel once, it will be interesting to see if Spike will continue to take things that are important to Angel, and if Angel will let him. What do you mean, Spike is taking Angel's stuff that is important to him? The only thing I can think of is the Viper . . . which I guess is Angel's . . . or is it W&H's, or is there a difference? Spike hasn't been taking Angel's stuff, so Angel has no power to stop "letting him." - Angel didn't want Dru as his main-squeeze.
- He left Buffy because he didn't feel that could work.
- Spike went out and got his own soul, and didn't take Angel's.
- Spike's ensoulment took away Angel's status as "the one and only ensouled vampire", but there was no way Angel "owned" that title or had any rightful say in Spike's decision - and Spike's ensoulment takes nothing away from Angel's heroism (except possibly, in Angel's own mind).
- The Shanshu prophecy isn't Angel's (or Spike's) to keep or give away.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 24, 2003 12:59:26 GMT -5
I don't know whether it was you Gail, but someone posted that Angel feels inferior to Spike's poetic, sensitive side and his comfortable relationships with women. Because of the curse and because he spends such energy secreting his inner demon, Angel is controlling not only of others but of himself. I find it fascinating that he is controlling, since he rebelled against his controlling father. That same person also said that Spike feels inferior to Angel's strength, both of body and of purpose. Since he feels he doesn't measure up, Spike is wild physically and he is anything but controlled. I like ME's development of the characters recently. We see somewhat into their "souls." But it basically validates what a lot of discussions on this board have been about the differences of our 2 favorite vampires. Their differences can blend into great power, if as Lee said, they stop having those pissing contests and work together. Hmm. I'm trying to remember when I said that. I don't know that I did, but thanx for attributing it to me...Though I do remember saying that Angel spends a lot of energy controlling his inner demon and that doesn't leave much strength left for passion and other stuff. Or something like that.
I wonder how Angelus reacted emotionally, back in 1880, to the admiration and liking and masculine camaderie of the newly turned William. Could it be that Angelus found himself enjoying the company of the exuberent but naive fledgeling? And that because Angelus didn't like having human feelings, he decided to assert his ascendancy in the cruelest way possible?
Of course, Angelus also was a control freak with everyone but Darla...Part of his having sex with Drusilla was about getting back at Darla after the latter went home to her 'daddy' following the spat Angelus mentioned.
The human Liam's father tried to keep his son on a very short leash. Liam was obviously unsuited for a life of worthy temperence as a merchant, judging by the degree to which he was wasting himself in the local pub. But his father's influence has dominated both the soulless and souled vampire that Liam became.
Part of Angel's excitement over having produced a real human son stemmed from a desire to prove that he could be a better father than his own had been. He could rewrite his own history, make that horrible relationship with his father have some meaning by being a kind and good father to Connor, the boy who was the third link in that chain of torment. Angel wanted to simultaneously outdo his father and rewrite that history of pain that was his human childhood, wipe the slate clean again. But he failed. And though it wasn't his fault, Angel blames himself for Connor's own short and painful life as Angel's son. Connor's fate was also influenced by Angelus, through Angelus' horrible attack on Holtz' family and the vampire hunter's subsequent thirst for vengeance. So if he's thinking even subconsciously of Spike as his surrogate son, that's an additional source of torment - here's another person who was twisted by Angelus' paternal influence. So the vicious father/son circle continues from Liam's father to Liam to Angelus to Connor and bounces back with an emotional jab through Spike. No wonder Angel feels that he is damned; he can't escape Angelus no matter how much he says he differs from his demon.
Hopefully the presence of his rebellious surrogate son/brother in Angel's life will help him grapple some of his own pesky father/son issues. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 24, 2003 13:20:24 GMT -5
What do you mean, Spike is taking Angel's stuff that is important to him? The only thing I can think of is the Viper . . . which I guess is Angel's . . . or is it W&H's, or is there a difference? Spike hasn't been taking Angel's stuff, so Angel has no power to stop "letting him." - Angel didn't want Dru as his main-squeeze.
- He left Buffy because he didn't feel that could work.
- Spike went out and got his own soul, and didn't take Angel's.
- Spike's ensoulment took away Angel's status as "the one and only ensouled vampire", but there was no way Angel "owned" that title or had any rightful say in Spike's decision - and Spike's ensoulment takes nothing away from Angel's heroism (except possibly, in Angel's own mind).
- The Shanshu prophecy isn't Angel's (or Spike's) to keep or give away.
Angel still thinks of Buffy as 'his', at least to the degree that his wishes for her life should come true. It's not necessarily the right thing, but it's all that Angel has left of that relationship. As far as Buffy is concerned, Angel doesn't want her to be with any other vampire, he's decided that she should only have romantic relationships with humans, and that's that. And Spike had the nerve to transgress; that's how Angel feels. Dirty evil Spike besmirched Angel's pure, shining girl-Slayer. And she chose dirty, evil Spike as her champion, bestowing the amulet and the champion protector-role it implied onto Captain Peroxide instead of him! That's gotta sting.
Yes, Spike has been taking Angel's stuff, some important, some not; both actually and in terms of Angel's viewpoint.
As soon as Spike was recorporealized, he grabbed Angel's cup and drank the blood that was in it.
Then Spike grabbed Harmony and said 'mind if I borrow your girl Friday' or something close to it (but he definitely said 'your' girl or gal. It can be argued that the flirtation and Harmony's own very obvious acquiesence and consent changed the dynamic, but there's no denying that Spike was reaching for someone he characterized as belonging to Angel. (during his stint as a ghost, Spike had complained twice that his old 'tumble' was waiting on Angel, there's sexual jealousy there, someone who Spike had claimed sexually was fetching Angel's coffee).
Next, Spike stole Angel's car, a very glitzy shiny Viper.
And finally, from Angel's viewpoint, Spike took Angel's Shanshu. Wesley had originally presented the prophecy to Angel with an implication that it applied to Angel and should give him hope. Angel took that hope and has been hoarding it; and even if he said he didn't believe it, he thought of the humanity-awarding Shanshu as his.
Luckily for the future relationship of Angel and Spike, the jury on the Shanshu is still out to lunch.
Spike did grab and take Angel's belongings. I don't blame him, Angelus had stolen Dru again and again in Spike's viewpoint (Angel/Angelus probably thought that Dru had always been his and that Spike was the thief).
Spike has to start falling in lust/love with women who don't fetch and carry for Angel or lose their virginity to Angel first, or who go running to Angel's arms when Spike's back is turned. I hope he can...
[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by makd on Nov 24, 2003 13:27:07 GMT -5
I agree with you about Angel. He does like the box, and the feeling of not being in control of things is really getting to him. Spike, besides being ahead of Angel right now, has also been taking Angel's stuff. Since he beat Angel once, it will be interesting to see if Spike will continue to take things that are important to Angel, and if Angel will let him. As for Spike taking Angel's things, let's ruminate on that a bit: Angelus was attracted to Drusilla, drove her crazy, turned her, and admitted to Buffy that Drusilla was one of the worst things he did. William!Spike loved Dru at first sight, took over her care and concerns after Angel was cursed, and spent 100+ years trying to care for her after the Fang Family was abandoned by Angel. Angel was attracted to Buffy, they fell in love, and, after making love to her, reverted to Angelus. In the process, he killed Jenny Calender, tortured Giles, almost killed everyone Buffy cared about. She killed him in the process. She's still in love with him. She's still hanging on, baking for Angel. Spike fell in love with Buffy and did his best (hello....chipped but unsouled) to help her overcome her (yes, spit it out, makd) inability to love. He even became ensouled to love her better, and so she might love him back. So....regarding Dru and Buffy, seems to me like Spike didn't take anything --- He picked up the detritus of Angel/us and did his best to clean up big brother's messes. (channeling Inner Bitch here.) that said, I still like Angel; I like him a lot, but he's got problems loving - they all do in the Jossverse!!
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 24, 2003 13:34:43 GMT -5
As for Spike taking Angel's things, let's ruminate on that a bit: Angelus was attracted to Drusilla, drove her crazy, turned her, and admitted to Buffy that Drusilla was one of the worst things he did. William!Spike loved Dru at first sight, took over her care and concerns after Angel was cursed, and spent 100+ years trying to care for her after the Fang Family was abandoned by Angel. Angel was attracted to Buffy, they fell in love, and, after making love to her, reverted to Angelus. In the process, he killed Jenny Calender, tortured Giles, almost killed everyone Buffy cared about. She killed him in the process. She's still in love with him. She's still hanging on, baking for Angel. Spike fell in love with Buffy and did his best (hello....chipped but unsouled) to help her overcome her (yes, spit it out, makd) inability to love. He even became ensouled to love her better, and so she might love him back. So....regarding Dru and Buffy, seems to me like Spike didn't take anything --- He picked up the detritus of Angel/us and did his best to clean up big brother's messes. (channeling Inner Bitch here.) that said, I still like Angel; I like him a lot, but he's got problems loving - they all do in the Jossverse!! Good points!
Someone else posted that Spike fixes what Angel/Angelus has broken. I kinda hope that Buffy will fix herself and stay out of our Souled Vamps' lives, but expect to see the Slayer flounce into L.A. either May 2004 or May 2005.
One of Angel's biggest problems in loving is that he can't take any relationship into sexual territory for fear of loosing Angelus. I wonder whether Angel hides behind that curse - we've never seen him even try to get it reversed or modified, or think of researching ways to do so. It might be easier for him to control lust/love the way he does everything else, and wallow in being the romantic Cursed Souled Vampire. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 13:43:49 GMT -5
Angel still thinks of Buffy as 'his', at least to the degree that his wishes for her life should come true. It's not necessarily the right thing, but it's all that Angel has left of that relationship. As far as Buffy is concerned, Angel doesn't want her to be with any other vampire, he's decided that she should only have romantic relationships with humans, and that's that. And Spike had the nerve to transgress; that's how Angel feels. Dirty evil Spike besmirched Angel's pure, shining girl-Slayer. And she chose dirty, evil Spike as her champion, bestowing the amulet and the champion protector-role it implied onto Captain Peroxide instead of him! That's gotta sting.
Yes, Spike has been taking Angel's stuff, some important, some not; both actually and in terms of Angel's viewpoint.
As soon as Spike was recorporealized, he grabbed Angel's cup and drank the blood that was in it.
Then Spike grabbed Harmony and said 'mind if I borrow your girl Friday' or something close to it (but he definitely said 'your' girl or gal. It can be argued that the flirtation and Harmony's own very obvious acquiesence and consent changed the dynamic, but there's no denying that Spike was reaching for someone he characterized as belonging to Angel. (during his stint as a ghost, Spike had complained twice that his old 'tumble' was waiting on Angel, there's sexual jealousy there, someone who Spike had claimed sexually was fetching Angel's coffee).
Next, Spike stole Angel's car, a very glitzy shiny Viper.
And finally, from Angel's viewpoint, Spike took Angel's Shanshu. Wesley had originally presented the prophecy to Angel with an implication that it applied to Angel and should give him hope. Angel took that hope and has been hoarding it; and even if he said he didn't believe it, he thought of the humanity-awarding Shanshu as his.
Luckily for the future relationship of Angel and Spike, the jury on the Shanshu is still out to lunch.
Spike did grab and take Angel's belongings. I don't blame him, Angelus had stolen Dru again and again in Spike's viewpoint (Angel/Angelus probably thought that Dru had always been his and that Spike was the thief).
Spike has to start falling in lust/love with women who don't fetch and carry for Angel or lose their virginity to Angel first, or who go running to Angel's arms when Spike's back is turned. I hope he can...
[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]Spike grabbed the cup of blood, Harmony, and the Viper. Even if you believe these things are "Angel's," they definitely don't constitute things that "are important to Angel." I agree that the other things - Buffy, Angel's "one and only" vampire status, "the Shanshu" are things that Angel may PERCEIVE as his, that Spike took. But what I'm saying is: Angel is wrong. Angel had, and has, no power in it, nor any say - there was/is no question of "letting Spike" or "not letting Spike" take these things. They aren't Angel's, even if he thought/thinks that they are.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 13:50:33 GMT -5
<snip> Spike has to start falling in lust/love with women who don't fetch and carry for Angel or lose their virginity to Angel first, or who go running to Angel's arms when Spike's back is turned. I hope he can...
[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]On this part, above - I definitely agree that Spike needs to strike out completely on his own. But I think that's what we see the beginning of in this episode - you know, the son telling the father, "I'm not you," and finally making his own life. Harmony - she had her relationship with Spike prior to her relationship with Angel, so . . . if you look at her as "who took her" you'd have to say it went Spike, then Angel - Spike getting together with Harmony wouldn't be about Spike wanting what Angel has, I don't think. God knows what it would be about, but I think that relationship is not due to Spike's very real past need to "prove himself" to Angel, and to himself, by doing what Angel did. That's how I see Spike's actions, in relation to Angel - it isn't a matter of Spike "taking Angel's stuff" or Angel "letting him." In the past, I think Spike wanted to show Angel and Dru and Buffy and himself and everyone and anyone that HE is every bit as good as Angel and "anything he can do, I can do better." Now, he needs to start moving away from this type of motivation.
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Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 14:16:14 GMT -5
As for Spike taking Angel's things, let's ruminate on that a bit: Angelus was attracted to Drusilla, drove her crazy, turned her, and admitted to Buffy that Drusilla was one of the worst things he did. William!Spike loved Dru at first sight, took over her care and concerns after Angel was cursed, and spent 100+ years trying to care for her after the Fang Family was abandoned by Angel. Angel was attracted to Buffy, they fell in love, and, after making love to her, reverted to Angelus. In the process, he killed Jenny Calender, tortured Giles, almost killed everyone Buffy cared about. She killed him in the process. She's still in love with him. She's still hanging on, baking for Angel. Spike fell in love with Buffy and did his best (hello....chipped but unsouled) to help her overcome her (yes, spit it out, makd) inability to love. He even became ensouled to love her better, and so she might love him back. So....regarding Dru and Buffy, seems to me like Spike didn't take anything --- He picked up the detritus of Angel/us and did his best to clean up big brother's messes. (channeling Inner Bitch here.) that said, I still like Angel; I like him a lot, but he's got problems loving - they all do in the Jossverse!! I completely agree that Angel has done Spike wrong - and big time. And I think Spike would be perfectly justified in taking Angel's things. But would it be the *right* thing to do? But irregardless of that, the fact is that taking Angel's stuff is exactly what Spike is doing. And I think that Angel is going to *let* him, because I think he's starting to lose hope that *he's the one*. I can't wait until they suss things out between them. I don't think that the competition between them is over yet. And I love them both, too. I am rooting for them to journey to the point of either forgiveness or at least acceptance of each other.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 14:23:45 GMT -5
I completely agree that Angel has done Spike wrong - and big time. And I think Spike would be perfectly justified in taking Angel's things. But would it be the *right* thing to do? But irregardless of that, the fact is that taking Angel's stuff is exactly what Spike is doing. And I think that Angel is going to *let* him, because I think he's starting to lose hope that *he's the one*. I can't wait until they suss things out between them. I don't think that the competition between them is over yet. And I love them both, too. I am rooting for them to journey to the point of either forgiveness or at least acceptance of each other. What, what, what has Spike taken of Angel's, that is of any importance to Angel? I don't mean what does Angel THINK Spike has taken from him, I mean what has Spike actually taken from him? What am I missing here? I can't think of one thing Spike has taken from Angel that is of any consequence. If you give up a car at a dealership, someone else buys it, have they taken it from you? If someone buys the exact same model car you have, have they taken your car? If someone really wants, and bids on something you also really, really want, is that "trying to take what is yours?" Spike has taken nothing of any consequence from Angel. Zero. Zip.
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Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 14:25:52 GMT -5
What do you mean, Spike is taking Angel's stuff that is important to him? The only thing I can think of is the Viper . . . which I guess is Angel's . . . or is it W&H's, or is there a difference? Spike hasn't been taking Angel's stuff, so Angel has no power to stop "letting him." - Angel didn't want Dru as his main-squeeze.
- He left Buffy because he didn't feel that could work.
- Spike went out and got his own soul, and didn't take Angel's.
- Spike's ensoulment took away Angel's status as "the one and only ensouled vampire", but there was no way Angel "owned" that title or had any rightful say in Spike's decision - and Spike's ensoulment takes nothing away from Angel's heroism (except possibly, in Angel's own mind).
- The Shanshu prophecy isn't Angel's (or Spike's) to keep or give away.
Well, the Viper was one thing. Angel's cup of blood another. His secretary, Harmony. Hugging Gunn and then asking him to go party with him. The Cup of Perpetual Torment. Of course, all this stuff Angel just *assumes* is his. NOt that any of it really is. Like he told Spike after Spike found Angelus with Dru: "You're new and a little dim, so let me explain to you how things are now. There's no belonging or deserving anymore. You can take what you want, have what you want, but nothing is yours." He looks towards Dru and adds, "Not even her." I think this also applies to Angel. In fact, I think Spike is spitting this back at Angel by *taking* what Angel assumes is his stuff.
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Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 14:32:08 GMT -5
What, what, what has Spike taken of Angel's, that is of any importance to Angel? I don't mean what does Angel THINK Spike has taken from him, I mean what has Spike actually taken from him? What am I missing here? I can't think of one thing Spike has taken from Angel that is of any consequence. If you give up a car at a dealership, someone else buys it, have they taken it from you? If someone buys the exact same model car you have, have they taken your car? If someone really wants, and bids on something you also really, really want, is that "trying to take what is yours?" Spike has taken nothing of any consequence from Angel. Zero. Zip. Ah, but here I think that Spike has taken things that are important from Angel. And I think Angel knew all along that he would end up the loser with Spike back into his life. I think that's what he meant when he was talking to Gunn. Spike, in besting him, has taken something away from Angel. Maybe it's Angel's slim hold on redemption. Maybe it's his hope.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 14:36:26 GMT -5
Ah, but here I think that Spike has taken things that are important from Angel. And I think Angel knew all along that he would end up the loser with Spike back into his life. I think that's what he meant when he was talking to Gunn. Spike, in besting him, has taken something away from Angel. Maybe it's Angel's slim hold on redemption. Maybe it's his hope. But Spike hasn't taken away Angel's hope or his slim hold on redemption. First, you can't take something away from someone, unless that thing belongs to them in the first place. So, Spike, even if he shanshued tomorrow, and we learned that it could only happen once, will not have "taken it away" from Angel. Angel never "owned" that Shanshu. And if that one defeat at Spike's hands has taken Angel's hope, that is something Angel has given up, not something Spike has taken away from him. I think Angel is just temporarily down about that defeat at Spike's hands anyhow. I think it will turn out to be a good thing for him. Spike - he's going to be Angel's Hope.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 24, 2003 14:41:00 GMT -5
On this part, above - I definitely agree that Spike needs to strike out completely on his own. But I think that's what we see the beginning of in this episode - you know, the son telling the father, "I'm not you," and finally making his own life. Harmony - she had her relationship with Spike prior to her relationship with Angel, so . . . if you look at her as "who took her" you'd have to say it went Spike, then Angel - Spike getting together with Harmony wouldn't be about Spike wanting what Angel has, I don't think. God knows what it would be about, but I think that relationship is not due to Spike's very real past need to "prove himself" to Angel, and to himself, by doing what Angel did. That's how I see Spike's actions, in relation to Angel - it isn't a matter of Spike "taking Angel's stuff" or Angel "letting him." In the past, I think Spike wanted to show Angel and Dru and Buffy and himself and everyone and anyone that HE is every bit as good as Angel and "anything he can do, I can do better." Now, he needs to start moving away from this type of motivation. I just realized that Spike's walking in Angel's footsteps has put him in the position of being a souled, heroic vampire.
Would Spike have thought of going out and getting his soul back without the example of his souled vampire grandsire/nemesis? Would Spike now have an example of heroism to follow-or-ridicule, or both, if Angel hadn't blazed the trail first? This can either be used as evidence that Spike is a wannabe poseur riding on Angel's saintly coattails, or a reaffirmation of the father/son bond between them. I had thought that Angelus was Spike's only father-figure, but now I see that Angel is also Spike's father. A good father sets an example for a son, tries to guide him; then lets the son decide, on maturity, what the son will do with his life. Angel hasn't been a good father to Spike; he's been a very poor father, but Angel/Angelus has been the only father Spike has apparently ever known. And so far, he's followed Angel's pattern of souled heroism, albeit with Spiky variations on the theme.
I don't want to see Spike reject the idea of being a souled hero just because Angel is one.
Spike is still defining himself. He is neither the snarky bad boy of BUFFY S2-4 or the romantic and gentle and noble Spike of the last part of S7; but someone in between. He took a big step forward in his evolution in DESTINY, now, hopefully he can move forward in his relationship with Angel and the rest of the world. (though some snarking will always be welcome; I love Spike-snark)
Maybe there's a possibility of an eventual Spike/Lindsey rock band after all.[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 14:46:43 GMT -5
But Spike hasn't taken away Angel's hope or his slim hold on redemption. First, you can't take something away from someone, unless that thing belongs to them in the first place. So, Spike, even if he shanshued tomorrow, and we learned that it could only happen once, will not have "taken it away" from Angel. Angel never "owned" that Shanshu. And if that one defeat at Spike's hands has taken Angel's hope, that is something Angel has given up, not something Spike has taken away from him. I think Angel is just temporarily down about that defeat at Spike's hands anyhow. I think it will turn out to be a good thing for him. Spike - he's going to be Angel's Hope. I think Angel has been losing hope for quite a while. He's burdened with guilt about Connor and the mindwipe. Etc, etc. And you're right, Angel let Spike *take* those things that he assumed were his because I don't think he thinks he deserves them. And I didn't think Angel gave those things up willingly. Spike had a hand in initiating the taking. If I was the boss of a company, and my reward for all my hard work had been *taken* away from me by an outsider, you might say that my reward wasn't mine to begin with because it wasn't in my possession, but you can't tell me that I gave it to the one who took it from me. I too hope they will be each other's salvation.
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Post by Betsy on Nov 24, 2003 14:51:04 GMT -5
I don't blame him, Angelus had stolen Dru again and again in Spike's viewpoint (Angel/Angelus probably thought that Dru had always been his and that Spike was the thief).[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] But technically, Dru was Angelus' as he sired her. Much like Angelus was Darla's as Darla sired him. So I don't look at it like Angelus stole/took Dru from Spike/William . . . more like Spike/William was trying to claims rights to Dru, when Angelus has/had those rights.
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