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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 16:03:31 GMT -5
No fun at all, I agree! ;D All I was ever trying to say was that Spike being let out of Pandora's Box, so to speak, caused all the pandemonium in Angel's life to be brought to a head. NOT that it was his fault. There is EveL lurking about that had a big hand in it. And he was played beautifully. And so was Angel. I don't think it matters if *we* think that Angel's stuff is unimportant, or if the Shanshu was his or not in the first place. The fact remains that Spike took, and I can see no other word for it, Angel's stuff. He didn't ask him, - 'May I have a drink out of your cup', or 'Can I borrow the Viper' dad, or 'can I shag your Secretary'. Or 'can I try to take the Shanshu from you, please, because I deserve it more'? Whether or not we think these really were Angel's things to begin with, Angel thinks they are, and that's what's important. Spike needs to realize what he's doing before he can be a help to Angel. Angel needs to accept that help when Spike offers it. They need to quit playing the game of W&H's, EveL and whoever else is jerking their chains, and start playing their own game. Like they did together with Pavayne and the necromancer. Spike may be helping Angel underneath it all, but it's because he's good now, not because he likes Angel. And I like it when they team up. They are both the better for it. Hope and Crosby. Oh, January is so far away! Yes - Spike took Angel's cup o blood, the Viper, and his secretary for a little while. But those are not things of significance to Angel - I mean, I don't think even Angel would decide this stuff was a big deal. And I can't think of one thing Spike ever took from Angel that was important to Angel. Spike has already been tons of help to Angel. I agree that the help they can be to each other, and in fighting evil, is not being optimized because of their personal issues - but actually, I think they're both working on that. I see progress.
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Post by Betsy on Nov 24, 2003 16:03:50 GMT -5
Angel does seem to think Buffy's still his, even though he gave her up. He can't have her, but he doesn't really want anyone else to have her either. In his mind, she's still as much his as Dru is. The similarities btwn the scene in s2 when Spike is watching Angelus and Dru from the shadows and the scene in Chosen was just as deliberate as so much else in BtVS. Dru can't move away from "Daddy," but Buffy can (and has). I don't think it's quite that if he can't have her than no one else can . . . it's more that it was Spike. SUre he was jealous when she was seeing Riley. But I too would get jealous when an ex of mine started seeing someone else even though I had broken up with him. I think it's human nature.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 24, 2003 16:04:55 GMT -5
I'm not denying that Spike hasn't helped him in those instances, and I guess I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say. What I meant was all the harking that Spike is doing on the deal that Angel made with W&H. Angel knows he made a deal with the devil. He knows it probably isn't the best thing he's done, but he's trying to deal with it and make the best of it and to have someone in his hear continuously harking on it isn't helpful. That's what I meant. Spikes thinks he knows Angel, but I don't think he does. He knows Angelus, but has never spent that much time with Angel. DOesn't really know who Angel is now. Same in that Angel knows the Spike of years ago. Not this new version of Spike. Granted, the boys need to get to know each other as they are now, but they can't do that until they get their history behind them...in the past, where it belongs. Angel has steadfastly refused to recognize Spike's changes, until now. Angel needed to be beaten by Spike as much as Spike needed to beat him.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 16:05:43 GMT -5
Angel's perception of Spike is that Spike is taking what is his. Whether or not Spike is doing it out of spite, or just because he is Spike, doesn't matter. It still gets the same reaction from Angel - every time - Angel feels threatened. They need to quit acting like children, like Lee has said in her review. (But not for a while, because their fighting is fun and makes for a good story.) Spike isn't doing it at all. He's never taken anything important to Angel.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 24, 2003 16:08:40 GMT -5
I don't think it's quite that if he can't have her than no one else can . . . it's more that it was Spike. SUre he was jealous when she was seeing Riley. But I too would get jealous when an ex of mine started seeing someone else even though I had broken up with him. I think it's human nature. Must agree to disagree then. When Angel tells Spike Buffy couldn't love him 'cuz he (Spike) wasn't Angel, he's implying that Buffy can't love any man who isn't Angel. Spike has sacrificed himself to save the world, losing everything important to him, and Angel still sees him as "less."
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Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 16:11:36 GMT -5
Angel does seem to think Buffy's still his, even though he gave her up. He can't have her, but he doesn't really want anyone else to have her either. In his mind, she's still as much his as Dru is. The similarities btwn the scene in s2 when Spike is watching Angelus and Dru from the shadows and the scene in Chosen was just as deliberate as so much else in BtVS. Dru can't move away from "Daddy," but Buffy can (and has). Ooh, I like that comparison. I'll have to think on that. I hope Buffy has moved on (sorry spuffies and bangles everywhere). She'd be a fool not to have learned alot from her experiences with both vampires and Riley. Hopefully she can resolve *her* daddy issues as well and find a relationship that isn't self-destructive for her.
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Post by Betsy on Nov 24, 2003 16:11:42 GMT -5
Granted, the boys need to get to know each other as they are now, but they can't do that until they get their history behind them...in the past, where it belongs. Angel has steadfastly refused to recognize Spike's changes, until now. Angel needed to be beaten by Spike as much as Spike needed to beat him. How can one recognize the changes of other if you haven't been there to see them first hand. Sure Buffy said well he has a soul now and he knows more of it. But he hadn't seen any of it . . . so what's wrong in seeing is believing. Who's to say that that maybe Angel wants to make sure Spike did change and is not maybe just playing along to impress Buffy, etc. After all, Spike didn't get Soul to help mankind or out of the goodness of his dead heart. He got it to become the man that Buffy wanted. Not together altruistic. He still isn't interested in fighting for atonement/redemption (as he's reiterated many times) like Angel does. Doesn't make him better than Angel, just because Angel was cursed and Spike sought his out and fought demon trials for it. If he had never been chipped to begin with, you really think he would have gone looking for his soul? I don't think so. So how can he think he's better than Angel just cuz he sought out his soul. He can't.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 16:15:45 GMT -5
I'm not denying that Spike hasn't helped him in those instances, and I guess I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say. What I meant was all the harking that Spike is doing on the deal that Angel made with W&H. Angel knows he made a deal with the devil. He knows it probably isn't the best thing he's done, but he's trying to deal with it and make the best of it and to have someone in his hear continuously harking on it isn't helpful. That's what I meant. Spikes thinks he knows Angel, but I don't think he does. He knows Angelus, but has never spent that much time with Angel. DOesn't really know who Angel is now. Same in that Angel knows the Spike of years ago. Not this new version of Spike. Spike's snarking has never been helpful, to anyone. Kinda like Angel's brooding - no help there. But . . . well, they are who they are. You can't expect every aspect of their personalities, and everything they say and do - to each other or to the others - to be helpful and kind and selflessly motivated. Mostly, they are helpful in the fight against evil. The snarking, the brooding, the jealousies - not helpful, no. But the portrayal is realistic - it's how imperfect people act, especially when both are extremely stressed, and they have that nasty old history. When push comes to shove, they've helped each other and they've done the right thing. They care about each other underneath it all, and they care about the good fight. And they've proven that in their actions, if not in all their words.
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Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 16:21:02 GMT -5
Spike isn't doing it at all. He's never taken anything important to Angel. Maybe Spike didn't feel the things he took were important. But sometimes it's the little things that bother us the most. I think Spike needs to realize that he's not a ghost anymore. He can't just barge into Angel's space. Spike wasn't given those things, so he had to get them somehow. Did I miss something? Did someone else give him the things he used of Angel's? ;D
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 16:22:42 GMT -5
Ooh, I like that comparison. I'll have to think on that. I hope Buffy has moved on (sorry spuffies and bangles everywhere). She'd be a fool not to have learned alot from her experiences with both vampires and Riley. Hopefully she can resolve *her* daddy issues as well and find a relationship that isn't self-destructive for her. Yes - I second that. Let Buffy move on, please! I am totally unspoiled, but if SMG does do a guest shot, I am hoping Buffy makes it clear to both vamps that she loves them and she always will, but they are in her past. I doubt that will happen though - because Joss needs to keep ratings up, and he doesn't want to loose Spuffies or Bangels by taking away the hopes they cling to. My prediciton: It will be deliberately vague, just as "Chosen" was, though the subtext will all but shout: "She's never ending up with either of them!"
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Post by Betsy on Nov 24, 2003 16:24:22 GMT -5
Yes - I second that. Let Buffy move on, please! I am totally unspoiled, but if SMG does do a guest shot, I am hoping Buffy makes it clear to both vamps that she loves them and she always will, but they are in her past. I doubt that will happen though - because Joss needs to keep ratings up, and he doesn't want to loose Spuffies or Bangels by taking away the hopes they cling to. My prediciton: It will be deliberately vague, just as "Chosen" was, though the subtext will all but shout: "She's never ending up with either of them!" I'm actually hoping that if she ever does show up in LA when she's done backing that Angel and Spike basically say, enough is enough and that whether she is baked or not, they have moved on and to stay the hell away from us. ;D
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 24, 2003 16:25:58 GMT -5
How can one recognize the changes of other if you haven't been there to see them first hand. Sure Buffy said well he has a soul now and he knows more of it. But he hadn't seen any of it . . . so what's wrong in seeing is believing. Who's to say that that maybe Angel wants to make sure Spike did change and is not maybe just playing along to impress Buffy, etc. After all, Spike didn't get Soul to help mankind or out of the goodness of his dead heart. He got it to become the man that Buffy wanted. Not together altruistic. He still isn't interested in fighting for atonement/redemption (as he's reiterated many times) like Angel does. Doesn't make him better than Angel, just because Angel was cursed and Spike sought his out and fought demon trials for it. If he had never been chipped to begin with, you really think he would have gone looking for his soul? I don't think so. So how can he think he's better than Angel just cuz he sought out his soul. He can't. Maybe he can, maybe he can't, but I do. Spike was more human as a demon than Angelus. Angelus killed Jenny 'cuz she was trying to restore his soul. I don't think a chipped Angelus would've done as much good as chipped Spike. Spike is more evolved than Angel. JW said so himself.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 24, 2003 16:33:22 GMT -5
Yes - I second that. Let Buffy move on, please! I am totally unspoiled, but if SMG does do a guest shot, I am hoping Buffy makes it clear to both vamps that she loves them and she always will, but they are in her past. I doubt that will happen though - because Joss needs to keep ratings up, and he doesn't want to loose Spuffies or Bangels by taking away the hopes they cling to. My prediciton: It will be deliberately vague, just as "Chosen" was, though the subtext will all but shout: "She's never ending up with either of them!" I just can't get behind Buffy and Spike moving on, at least not right away. Obvious Spuffy leanings aside, I don't want either to move on to the extent of having a new romantic relationship right now. Further, there are too many unresolved issues btwn them. Buffy needs to find herself, needs to spend time w/Dawn, and make new friends. She needs to move beyond the need for a man in her life. Here's the problem I have w/the idea of Buffy and Spike being over just 'cuz BtVS is over: it doesn't feel organic. If the 'ship is indeed over, it needs to end more naturally.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 16:33:41 GMT -5
Maybe Spike didn't feel the things he took were important. But sometimes it's the little things that bother us the most. I think Spike needs to realize that he's not a ghost anymore. He can't just barge into Angel's space. Spike wasn't given those things, so he had to get them somehow. Did I miss something? Did someone else give him the things he used of Angel's? ;D If a cup of blood, a half hour with Harmony, and one drive in the Viper are important things to Angel, then yes, Spike took things of importance to Angel. I can't see them as important, or see where Angel thought they were important. So that's why I say that Spike has taken nothing of significance away from Angel.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 24, 2003 16:37:40 GMT -5
Angel's perception of Spike is that Spike is taking what is his. Whether or not Spike is doing it out of spite, or just because he is Spike, doesn't matter. It still gets the same reaction from Angel - every time - Angel feels threatened. They need to quit acting like children, like Lee has said in her review. (But not for a while, because their fighting is fun and makes for a good story.) I like their fighting when it's about serious things. "You made me a monster", for example. I'm tired of them snarking just to be snarking. I want to see them hate each other, but still work toward the same goals, like when they beat the necromancer.
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