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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 16, 2004 17:39:07 GMT -5
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Post by Guest ellie on Jan 16, 2004 18:16:04 GMT -5
Nan- excellent review-
I really appreciated the way you drew the connection between the development/destruction of corporate mores vs moral values in the episodes depiction of decision making and chain of command pecking orders.
I had completely forgotten about Harmony's whining to go to France- it makes the whole relationship assume more form- Spike really has harmed harmony- his nickname for her has more than a little resonance.
Oh- I think the Yoyodyne name also harkens back to Thomas Pyncheon's novel- evil aeronautics and missile producing company was called Yoyodyne.
ellie
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 16, 2004 18:55:00 GMT -5
I caught the reference to Yoyodine (Buckaroo Banzai is a fave); but missed the others - cool.
I loved Spike's "You believed in..." to Fred; very sweet.
I think Spike's stated reasons for not going after Buffy are pretty lame. I would rather it had something to do with why he's in L.A. Stuck in the elevator w/Eve, he knew there had to be a reason. Of course, the writers had to work in the "not mattering" angle to gibe with Harmony's experience. I'm very disappointed ME left something so important to these two. Unleashed is probably my least favorite ep. of the season so far.
As for Angel "terminating" Eli, I think this is another example of Angel's kill first and ask questions later policy. Eli didn't even know why he was being called into Angel's office. Wouldn't a zero-tolerance policy mean losing your job, not your life? The offender might bolt, but I'm sure W&H has the resources to deal with that.
Interesting line Angel: "Tell Buffy you're a moron." At first I took this as an unwarranted insult to Spike, but it could also be interpreted as a diss on Buffy herself. Just thought I'd throw that in the mix.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 16, 2004 20:15:03 GMT -5
I caught the reference to Yoyodine ( Buckaroo Banzai is a fave); but missed the others - cool. I loved Spike's "You believed in..." to Fred; very sweet. I think Spike's stated reasons for not going after Buffy are pretty lame. I would rather it had something to do with why he's in L.A. Stuck in the elevator w/Eve, he knew there had to be a reason. Of course, the writers had to work in the "not mattering" angle to gibe with Harmony's experience. I'm very disappointed ME left something so important to these two. Unleashed is probably my least favorite ep. of the season so far. As for Angel "terminating" Eli, I think this is another example of Angel's kill first and ask questions later policy. Eli didn't even know why he was being called into Angel's office. Wouldn't a zero-tolerance policy mean losing your job, not your life? The offender might bolt, but I'm sure W&H has the resources to deal with that. Interesting line Angel: "Tell Buffy you're a moron." At first I took this as an unwarranted insult to Spike, but it could also be interpreted as a diss on Buffy herself. Just thought I'd throw that in the mix. Hi, LadyDi. I'm with you on Unleashed. Because Spike's face is so puffy, there's been conjecture that this ep was among the first to be shot, this season, to free JM up for a movie he was going to do, which was on, then off, and which now, reportedly, the actors have all dissociated themselves from. Here's hoping *much* better writing, and better Spike appearance, next week, although the satirical elements had considerable charm.
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Post by makd on Jan 16, 2004 20:15:16 GMT -5
I caught the reference to Yoyodine ( Buckaroo Banzai is a fave); but missed the others - cool. I loved Spike's "You believed in..." to Fred; very sweet. I think Spike's stated reasons for not going after Buffy are pretty lame. I would rather it had something to do with why he's in L.A. Stuck in the elevator w/Eve, he knew there had to be a reason. Of course, the writers had to work in the "not mattering" angle to gibe with Harmony's experience. I'm very disappointed ME left something so important to these two. Unleashed is probably my least favorite ep. of the season so far. As for Angel "terminating" Eli, I think this is another example of Angel's kill first and ask questions later policy. Eli didn't even know why he was being called into Angel's office. Wouldn't a zero-tolerance policy mean losing your job, not your life? The offender might bolt, but I'm sure W&H has the resources to deal with that. As always, Nan - great review. I appreciate your taking the time to write these; they really enhance my enjoyment of each episode. I loved your discussion of the ways the episode examined corporate culture. This was an important episode for many of Angel's younger (not yet out of college) viewers. So, I don't think this was a "filler" episode. One of the major changes for Angel fans was the move from the Hyperion hotel and it's "All for One; almost collegiate/dorm atmosphere", to the atmosphere of corporate culture. The fang gang is growing up, and they are learning, too, about corporate culture. Who better to epitomize that change than our Harmony, who's herself 5 years out of HS, trying - she's always trying - to make it in the big city, in a major corporation. After our long discussions on Wednesday night, and the two reviews, I really don't have much to add. Just that, I really like Harmony. And just one of those reasons is that I like the way she tries, 'cause it really IS hard to do the right thing when you don't have a soul; you don't have a chip; and no one's on your side. In fact, even WITH a chip, Spike had problems doing the right thing. And, even with a soul, WE have problems always doing the right thing. "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it." Last word: more scenes with Fred and Harm. I know in corporate culture, it's not mixy to have execs socializing with ass'ts, but...they really are good for each other, and each needs someone to talk with.
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Post by Ames on Jan 17, 2004 11:45:01 GMT -5
I liked Harm's Way more than Unleashed. Maybe not the most important story to be told, but amusing. Harmony's view of Angel as boss and the work environment at W&H was all too convincing!
But I wanted to comment on Spike's not leaving for Europe. I wondered how they were going to deal with the issue that he should rush off to find her, but obviously he can't. At first this reason sounded a little lame, but on reflection it's more convincing. Spike spent years trying to build himself up in Buffy's estimation to the point where he was her hero, and she could finally admit that she cared about him. And he made it. That's a memory he treasures, and he's afraid of losing it. He doesn't know what he'd say to her, showing up now, or what his status would be. He's putting it off because he's not sure he wants to find out. He also knows on some level that their relationship is hopeless, and they should probaby both move on. His "death" has been a clean break, and provided that opportunity. Maybe he's smart enough to realize that he shouldn't try to pick up where they left off.
BTW, how does Spike know exactly where to find Buffy in Europe? Are they in contact? Have they spoken? Or did Angel tell him? Has Angel even told Buffy that Spike is alive again?
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Post by Karen on Jan 17, 2004 12:29:02 GMT -5
Great review of a Harmony-centric episode, Nan. Hard to find the meat among the fluff of the episode, but you managed to find some tasty morsels.
I like this episode, just like I liked "Life of the Party" - but as Sue has pointed out, I'm a softy. I like minor-character plot driven stories. Makes me sit back and look at the major characters in a different way.
Nan Quote: "Spike insists she matters to someone and, when Harmony responds hopefully, contends she mattered to Tamika…who hated her. Thus reassured, she and Spike cheerfully raise their glasses and drink."
Do you think that one of the reason's Spike is sticking around LA is because he feels that Angel hates him, and that because of that he "matters"? Interesting philosophy.
One (of many) things that bothered me in this ep was Gunn's condescending attitude towards Angel. Angel was trying so hard to learn the demon language - to be able to contribute to the summit. And Gunn told him not to talk. Say what, Gunn? Big knowledge guy. YOU are NOT the boss.
Harmony was trying so hard to contribute - to make a difference, also. Angel told her that she was hired to just answer phones and bring him coffee. If only it were that simple, boss.
I see a parallel being drawn here. Where it's going to lead? Gee, I'm glad I don't know.
Spike told Harm to "keep it simple, it suits you". It sounds kind of flip, on the surface, but I think it does suit Harmony to keep it simple. And I don't mean simple as stupid, but simple as in honest and forthright.
Thanks for giving us your insights, Nan!!!
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Post by KMInfinity on Jan 17, 2004 12:48:04 GMT -5
Great review.... Thanks-the online community makes being a fan so much fun. I never did like Harmony, and this episode didn't endear her to me much. There were some good bits, but overall, I would have rather seen a different episode. Except, I also didn't like "Unleashed" so, in a backwards way, I'm glad that if Fain/Craft are writing an episode, it's centered on a character I didn't much like. Except, they were given the job of explaining the Buffy-Spike hiatus in the scene in the bar at the end, with the lame reason Spike gave for not going to Europe... Good questions. Especially, does Buffy know he's even back? This weaves into fanfic but: what if Spike was told Buffy's known all along that he's back, and she hasn't gotten in touch herself? Maybe that cooled him off, and he's afraid to see her. But, if she doesn't know then he's a cad....does he think no one will ever tell her? Shouldn't the news come from himself? Meanwhile--maybe the info Spike got (that Buffy knows he's back) was wrong, and she doesn't know. I dunno - the writers need to earn their keep and come up with a good reason for why Spike isn't seeing Buffy. I'd have even accepted that he did go see her and realized that she didn't really love him, but only "needed" him, and so came back rather than be "love's bitch", as JM has said. Having Buffy be immature or confused about Spike's place in her life makes sense. Having Spike be too much of a wuss to take the chance to see Buffy doesn't make sense.
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Post by Nickim on Jan 17, 2004 13:17:23 GMT -5
Great review, Nan, as always. Something I'm confused about is exactly when Harmony start working for W&H. She says she been off human blood for 8 months, which puts it well before Angel & company took over at W&H--at least as I understand the timeline. W&H didn't used to even allow vampires on the premises, so how did Harmony get hired before Angel was there? This is probably a totally unimportant question, but I was just wondering. I can't make up my mind about Spike's reason for not going to France. If it's supposed to be his real reason, it's lame, but if it's supposed to be a cover for his fears about Buffy's reaction, it's great.
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Post by Karen on Jan 17, 2004 13:27:59 GMT -5
Great review, Nan, as always. Something I'm confused about is exactly when Harmony start working for W&H. She says she been off human blood for 8 months, which puts it well before Angel & company took over at W&H--at least as I understand the timeline. W&H didn't used to even allow vampires on the premises, so how did Harmony get hired before Angel was there? This is probably a totally unimportant question, but I was just wondering. I can't make up my mind about Spike's reason for not going to France. If it's supposed to be his real reason, it's lame, but if it's supposed to be a cover for his fears about Buffy's reaction, it's great. I thought Tamika was pissed off because she'd been there for 5 years, and Harmony only for 5 weeks when she was promoted. Interesting point about W&H not hiring vampires in the past. The "lowest of the low demon", so how did Tamika get her job 5 years ago? Unless she was trading favors with someone to glamour her way in somehow.
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Post by makd on Jan 17, 2004 14:25:20 GMT -5
Just want to remind Guests that there are more comments germane to episode 5.9 at the in the Guest Review, "My Take: Another Angelic Look", and the guest reviewer is our own William the Bloody, a.k.a, Vlad, on our Guest Review thread: "My Take: Another Angelic Look", and at the Main Board, Post #97, (5.9).
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on Jan 17, 2004 16:18:24 GMT -5
I can't make up my mind about Spike's reason for not going to France. If it's supposed to be his real reason, it's lame, but if it's supposed to be a cover for his fears about Buffy's reaction, it's great. That's exactly how I took his reason for not going, as an excuse and for that I liked it. Spike, in any of his "forms" isn't likely to say, "I'm too chicken to go see her 'cause what if she doesn't want me?" I'm pretty sure we'll hear a little more about it, they needed a reason not just for him NOT to go but they also need a reason for him to STAY on at W&H. Great Review. I liked the ep for it's "Harmony" based humor, and I completely think that everyone we saw, we saw from her point of view. I also liked the "this 'ships sailed" take. I really hope it has. Angel needs to move beyond Buffy and it can't if they keep trying to drag her back into it. Also, even though I'm sure the practical reason Spike was barely in the ep was because JM was going to need time off I think it worked well using him as the beginning and end of the ep, to tie it all together. Spike even acknowledged, however slightly, his past treatment of Harmony. I think it tied up a few loose ends for those two characters and they may have come to some sort of truce or understanding.
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Post by Loki on Jan 17, 2004 16:54:17 GMT -5
I actually think there was more to Spike not going off to see Buffy then "he was just scared." Maybe he's waiting on the Shanshu Prophecy? If he fulfills it, then shows up on Buffy's door step... ta-da. Not only did he go out and get a soul, only to shortly after give his life to save her and the world, but now he fulfilled this ancient prophecy and against all odds, was turned back to human... all for her. Of course, that's not likely to happen, but it'd of been a better excuse on the writer's part to keep him with the Angel cast, if ya ask me. Personally, I think they should have drug out the ghost thing a bit longer, then turned him to human at the end of the season just before the big finale.
Of course... everyone but me would hate that. ;D
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Post by Sue on Jan 17, 2004 18:13:11 GMT -5
Personally, I think they should have drug out the ghost thing a bit longer, then turned him to human at the end of the season just before the big finale. Of course... everyone but me would hate that. ;D Loki, Hi, wouldn't have liked keeping him ghost Spike, but I've been in favor of Human!Spike since "Chosen". Won't go into all the reasons here, but I really wanted him to come back human. BTW, you can find lots more conversation about the episode(s) and the Jossverse in general (mixed in with a bunch of off-topic stuff as well) on the "Main Thread". The episode 5.9 discussion started on "Part 97" but we are already on to "Part 98." Sue
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Post by Dev(Rob) on Jan 17, 2004 19:17:33 GMT -5
Good review as usual Nan. Just a couple of my own thoughts here. I don't think they were hinting that Wolfram & Hart apparently owns the L.A.P.D but rather they own the disposal companies? The reason Angel got the call was that Tobias (Toby) Dupree had Angels card on him. I thought overall the epsiode was pretty decent. You could tell it had a similar feel to 'unleashed' but i quite enjoyed it. The kung-fu style fighting with chopsticks in the middle of what up untill then was a good fight scene runined that little brawl for me. - From Nans Review I think in the heat of the moment Harmony said 'filling' but ment she just merely added some human blood. When harm was drinking it was in a glutonous way in a panicked situation. Someone once said to me its hard to tell a vodka from a double vodka and i think that fits here. - Ames I was wondering this as well! - Nicki M Wes hired her didn't he? He thought old faces might be good in a new enviroment. As he is an exec he may of been able to wave that rule? Dev
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