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Post by Rachael on Jan 17, 2004 19:54:35 GMT -5
Good review as usual Nan. Just a couple of my own thoughts here. I don't think they were hinting that Wolfram & Hart apparently owns the L.A.P.D but rather they own the disposal companies? The reason Angel got the call was that Tobias (Toby) Dupree had Angels card on him. I thought overall the epsiode was pretty decent. You could tell it had a similar feel to 'unleashed' but i quite enjoyed it. The kung-fu style fighting with chopsticks in the middle of what up untill then was a good fight scene runined that little brawl for me. - From Nans Review I think in the heat of the moment Harmony said 'filling' but ment she just merely added some human blood. When harm was drinking it was in a glutonous way in a panicked situation. Someone once said to me its hard to tell a vodka from a double vodka and i think that fits here. - Ames I was wondering this as well! - Nicki M Wes hired her didn't he? He thought old faces might be good in a new enviroment. As he is an exec he may of been able to wave that rule? Dev Someone checkk for me, but I thought there was very explicit mention of W&H owning the LAPD in this ep. . .although that would tend to contradict lots of what happened in S1. If Harm's been off the human blood for 8 months, then that would be about last May, right when Angel made the deal to take over W&H. Unfortunately, the timeline hasn't been exactly corresponding with real time, so it's unclear whether they've been at W&H for 8 months, or just the three or so since the season started. If it's been less than 8 months, then Harm went off human blood before coming to work for Angel, which would be a very interesting development. Seems unlikely, but still - it would be one example of her doing something "good" potentially for non-selfish reasons. Or maybe human blood is really fattening.
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Post by Dev(Rob) on Jan 17, 2004 21:31:28 GMT -5
I retract my previous statement Angel does indicate that W&H own the L.A.P.D or he could mean "them" as in some of the police big wigs.
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Post by vick on Jan 17, 2004 22:55:45 GMT -5
Quote: One (of many) things that bothered me in this ep was Gunn's condescending attitude towards Angel. Angel was trying so hard to learn the demon language - to be able to contribute to the summit. And Gunn told him not to talk. Say what, Gunn? Big knowledge guy. YOU are NOT the boss.
that's the point. i think they want us to believe that gunn really wants angel's job. remember in "life of the party" when lorne told gunn to "stake out your territory" and gunn pissed on angel's chair. i guess it means that he wants to be the actual one to sit in that seat and be in control of things, which means that gunn really does want angel's job and for him to be the boss...
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Post by RAKSHA on Jan 18, 2004 0:15:33 GMT -5
Quote: One (of many) things that bothered me in this ep was Gunn's condescending attitude towards Angel. Angel was trying so hard to learn the demon language - to be able to contribute to the summit. And Gunn told him not to talk. Say what, Gunn? Big knowledge guy. YOU are NOT the boss. that's the point. i think they want us to believe that gunn really wants angel's job. remember in "life of the party" when lorne told gunn to "stake out your territory" and gunn pissed on angel's chair. i guess it means that he wants to be the actual one to sit in that seat and be in control of things, which means that gunn really does want angel's job and for him to be the boss... Now that would be an interesting development, good for a season-ender. Gunn might actually be better as W&H CEO as long as he sticks as close as possible to his original purpose of doing good....
Good review, as usual, Nan!GAIL
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Post by Karen on Jan 18, 2004 0:20:40 GMT -5
Quote: One (of many) things that bothered me in this ep was Gunn's condescending attitude towards Angel. Angel was trying so hard to learn the demon language - to be able to contribute to the summit. And Gunn told him not to talk. Say what, Gunn? Big knowledge guy. YOU are NOT the boss. that's the point. i think they want us to believe that gunn really wants angel's job. remember in "life of the party" when lorne told gunn to "stake out your territory" and gunn pissed on angel's chair. i guess it means that he wants to be the actual one to sit in that seat and be in control of things, which means that gunn really does want angel's job and for him to be the boss... I agree that that's what the writers are trying to show us about Gunn. But I don't think Gunn really has it in his mind to try and take over - just yet. There's going to be some trigger, and Angel will probably be the one to do something to trigger Gunn's belief that he'd do better being the one in charge. I can see it happening, and I hope Gunn is made to come to his senses if he does, because I don't want to see a rift between them last too long.
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Post by Spring Summers on Jan 18, 2004 0:22:37 GMT -5
Quote: One (of many) things that bothered me in this ep was Gunn's condescending attitude towards Angel. Angel was trying so hard to learn the demon language - to be able to contribute to the summit. And Gunn told him not to talk. Say what, Gunn? Big knowledge guy. YOU are NOT the boss. that's the point. i think they want us to believe that gunn really wants angel's job. remember in "life of the party" when lorne told gunn to "stake out your territory" and gunn pissed on angel's chair. i guess it means that he wants to be the actual one to sit in that seat and be in control of things, which means that gunn really does want angel's job and for him to be the boss... Hi vick. Welcome! Agreed . . . Gunn continues trying to stake out his territory, he's just being more subtle here than when he peed in Angel's chair. Nan/ - Nice job . . . favorite for me was this summarization: "Rather a failure as a murder mystery, the episode is a shrewd examination of corporate mores and folkways, the “dress for success” subculture, with its designer shoes and non-tacky perfume, strict hierarchies, real and perceived inequalities, backbiting and gossip, dubious morals . . . and self-promotion . . ."
Yep, that says it. Aside from the usual "it's all about the journey" stuff, with character growth and general exploration of the human condition, this Season is specifically examining, among other things, the corporate culture.
On Spike's explanation to Harmony - it is a "hmmmm" as you say. I believed him and didn't find it unconvincing so much as incomplete . . . I thought he was leaving out his doubts and fears about his relationship with Buffy, and possibly his own feeling that it is, and should, be over. But it makes sense that he wouldn't confide to that extent in Harmony. She doesn't know the history, plus, he's there to shore her up and he isn't going to redirect the conversation so that it is all about him and his feelings and his problems, etc.
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Post by Vlad on Jan 18, 2004 7:23:46 GMT -5
Quote: One (of many) things that bothered me in this ep was Gunn's condescending attitude towards Angel. Angel was trying so hard to learn the demon language - to be able to contribute to the summit. And Gunn told him not to talk. Say what, Gunn? Big knowledge guy. YOU are NOT the boss. that's the point. i think they want us to believe that gunn really wants angel's job. remember in "life of the party" when lorne told gunn to "stake out your territory" and gunn pissed on angel's chair. i guess it means that he wants to be the actual one to sit in that seat and be in control of things, which means that gunn really does want angel's job and for him to be the boss... That is a very interesting point there Vick, one I had not considered at all. I think it might be worthwhile to point out that this menacing brain enhancement that Gunn received did not necessarily come from the Senior Partners. It was Eve that convinced him to do it and gave him the "card." Since we aren't sure that Eve is even working for hte Partners, what else might she have had the doctor stick into Gunn's brain alongside the law, the languages, and Gilbert and Sullivin? Maybe a "trigger" for our dear Gunn? And, please, pardon the pun *L* We may have a little manchurian candidate? There have been an awful lot of chinese food references made this season. Vlad Theory Conspiratorist w/ The Best of Them.. (whoever "them" IS....of course) Vlad
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Post by Cal on Jan 18, 2004 8:46:02 GMT -5
Great review Nan! I agree with most of what has been said. The more I think about Spikes reason for not going to see Buffy the more I like it. I have come to the conclusion that it is not lame at all. Obviously, knowing Spike as we do, there is more to it than what he actually told Harmony - he wouldn't tell her his innermost thoughts and feelings.
As for the 'ship as sailed' theory - I would still like to think that maybe one day, but I hate to admit that you are probably right.
I think I would like Spike to be the one to Shanshu, but thats one that only time will tell! Looking forward to what comes next!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 18, 2004 13:39:28 GMT -5
Quote: One (of many) things that bothered me in this ep was Gunn's condescending attitude towards Angel. Angel was trying so hard to learn the demon language - to be able to contribute to the summit. And Gunn told him not to talk. Say what, Gunn? Big knowledge guy. YOU are NOT the boss. that's the point. i think they want us to believe that gunn really wants angel's job. remember in "life of the party" when lorne told gunn to "stake out your territory" and gunn pissed on angel's chair. i guess it means that he wants to be the actual one to sit in that seat and be in control of things, which means that gunn really does want angel's job and for him to be the boss... I think you're onto something here. I expect more developments in rivalry between Gunn and Angel as the series continues.
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Post by Wendy on Jan 18, 2004 14:55:40 GMT -5
Good review as usual Nan. Just a couple of my own thoughts here. I don't think they were hinting that Wolfram & Hart apparently owns the L.A.P.D but rather they own the disposal companies? The reason Angel got the call was that Tobias (Toby) Dupree had Angels card on him. I thought overall the epsiode was pretty decent. You could tell it had a similar feel to 'unleashed' but i quite enjoyed it. The kung-fu style fighting with chopsticks in the middle of what up untill then was a good fight scene runined that little brawl for me. - From Nans Review I think in the heat of the moment Harmony said 'filling' but ment she just merely added some human blood. When harm was drinking it was in a glutonous way in a panicked situation. Someone once said to me its hard to tell a vodka from a double vodka and i think that fits here. - Ames I was wondering this as well! - Nicki M Wes hired her didn't he? He thought old faces might be good in a new enviroment. As he is an exec he may of been able to wave that rule? Dev I was a little confused by the "Apparently we own them" line as well. I wasn't sure if he meant they owned the police, which would go along with Gunn and Angel's reactions, just as owning the city dump would have created the same reactions. After watching it the second time, I think they meant the dump, so they probably meant the police. I personally liked the fighting with chopsticks. Yeah, I know, they would never make it to the heart if used as a stake, but I thought it was funny and a very Harmony thing to do. As to Harmony's hiring...Wes hired her from the steno pool of secretaries assistants, so she was apparently already on premise when Wes chose her for Angel's assistant. But since she wasn't killed when the beast came thru W&H, one must assume she was hired sometime after the beast, and before Home, as she was in the steno pool for 4 1/2 weeks before Wes chose her. What was it, 16 days between Home and Just Rewards? So, she had to be hired between Habeus Corpses and Sacrifice (as I believe the last 3 eps of last season all occured in the same week.) I'm not sure I am being clear here, maybe someone else can say it better than me. Great review Nan. Loved the title.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 18, 2004 16:03:01 GMT -5
That is a very interesting point there Vick, one I had not considered at all. I think it might be worthwhile to point out that this menacing brain enhancement that Gunn received did not necessarily come from the Senior Partners. It was Eve that convinced him to do it and gave him the "card." Since we aren't sure that Eve is even working for hte Partners, what else might she have had the doctor stick into Gunn's brain alongside the law, the languages, and Gilbert and Sullivin? Maybe a "trigger" for our dear Gunn? And, please, pardon the pun *L* We may have a little manchurian candidate? There have been an awful lot of chinese food references made this season. Vlad Theory Conspiratorist w/ The Best of Them.. (whoever "them" IS....of course) Vlad butl...the cat...supposedly the conduit to the senior partners - the cat accepted Gunn. However now the cat is gone and we have only Eve's word that it WAS the conduit....ok - I like this theory - and it takes the 'lame' out of the whole give Gunn a brain idea...yes, I like this a lot.
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on Jan 18, 2004 17:22:14 GMT -5
I actually think there was more to Spike not going off to see Buffy then "he was just scared." Maybe he's waiting on the Shanshu Prophecy? If he fulfills it, then shows up on Buffy's door step... ta-da. I think you're probably right, that way he could show up at her door as a real live boy...still think we're going to see more on this, since it was such a short (lame) explanation. I also think that there's no way he'd confide in Harmony about something like that. My guess is a similar conversation will happen later, maybe with Fred, and we'll hear something closer to the "truth." Not a big fan of the make Spike human concept (or Angel for that matter) only because if you do that, the story is essentially over and I'm not ready for that yet! I also think the idea of Gunn in competition with Angel for the top spot is an interesting one. Just as it worked (I think it did anyway) in the past with Wes being the boss at Angel Investigations it might work better with someone else in "charge" at W&H. Who knows, maybe the season ending will result in a changing of the guard in that area. Angel certainly is more of a do-er, definitely not good at delegating. Great comments and observations everyone!
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Post by Aria on Jan 18, 2004 17:58:51 GMT -5
Great review Nan! One point that gave me pause and food for thought, though, is the idea that Spike actually sought Harmony out at the bar. We know from the beginning of the episode that Spike has been on a long drinking binge prior to his decision to seek out Buffy. In fact, Destiny ends with Spike off to a bar. It doesn't strike me as strange that, Spike, having nixed his plan to ship off, would go drinking and, given the small world of the Angel-verse, that he would end up in the same bar as Harmony. I don't think that Fred told him anything. He says to Harm that he's been listening to her tale of woe, which, I interpreted as he overheard her (he's simply been sitting on the otherside of the bar, unnoticed by a certain female vampire too caught up in her one woman pity-dity). Why does he care in the first place? Your guess is as good as mine -- remembering his sacrifice, perhaps he's feeling especially soulful. Or misery loves company or something like that. With regards to why Spike nixes his plans to go find Buffy and then gives a somewhat questionable response - I think that the writers are trying to deal with the fact that Spike, given his Buffy-obsession, would naturally want to seek her out, but, because SMG isn't willing to come back on the show this season, they can't really let him do that. To just make Spike's desire to be re-united with Buffy a red herring would be wrong. They have to deal with it somehow to justify his presence in L.A. So, in this respect, I understand their willingness to fall back on Spike's narcissistic desire to "look good" -- ie, to let his love of his final exit outway his desire for Buffy.
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Post by Reetta on Jan 18, 2004 20:41:30 GMT -5
I agree that that's what the writers are trying to show us about Gunn. But I don't think Gunn really has it in his mind to try and take over - just yet. There's going to be some trigger, and Angel will probably be the one to do something to trigger Gunn's belief that he'd do better being the one in charge. I can see it happening, and I hope Gunn is made to come to his senses if he does, because I don't want to see a rift between them last too long. What can I say - always a pleasure to read your reviews, Nan. You always give me so much to think about. As for the Angel - Gunn dynamic, I could be wrong about this but I think Angel has also shared some of his Angel being most truthful moments of the season with Gunn (e.g. the end of Destiny, the "What if I'm not the one" speech) My point with this? Dunno. I'm not even completely sure if I remember this correctly.
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Post by RAKSHA on Jan 18, 2004 20:49:23 GMT -5
Great review Nan! One point that gave me pause and food for thought, though, is the idea that Spike actually sought Harmony out at the bar. We know from the beginning of the episode that Spike has been on a long drinking binge prior to his decision to seek out Buffy. In fact, Destiny ends with Spike off to a bar. It doesn't strike me as strange that, Spike, having nixed his plan to ship off, would go drinking and, given the small world of the Angel-verse, that he would end up in the same bar as Harmony. I don't think that Fred told him anything. He says to Harm that he's been listening to her tale of woe, which, I interpreted as he overheard her (he's simply been sitting on the otherside of the bar, unnoticed by a certain female vampire too caught up in her one woman pity-dity). Why does he care in the first place? Your guess is as good as mine -- remembering his sacrifice, perhaps he's feeling especially soulful. Or misery loves company or something like that. With regards to why Spike nixes his plans to go find Buffy and then gives a somewhat questionable response - I think that the writers are trying to deal with the fact that Spike, given his Buffy-obsession, would naturally want to seek her out, but, because SMG isn't willing to come back on the show this season, they can't really let him do that. To just make Spike's desire to be re-united with Buffy a red herring would be wrong. They have to deal with it somehow to justify his presence in L.A. So, in this respect, I understand their willingness to fall back on Spike's narcissistic desire to "look good" -- ie, to let his love of his final exit outway his desire for Buffy. Now I'm wondering whether Spike wimped out on going to Buffy because he truly believes that she still loves Angel after Spike's given all that he can give to her, what would be the point of pestering her with his love any further. He feels that he's redeemed himself in her eyes, gained her respect and forgiveness, but won't ever have the love he wanted from her. Of course, Spike wouldn't want to admit to anyone, especially Harm, that he thinks Buffy loves Angel more than himself, so he covers it up with the lame excuse...
GAIL
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