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Post by badchuckie on Jan 19, 2004 2:14:56 GMT -5
just wanted to point out that Yoyodyne is actually a reference lifted out of the work of Thomas Pynchon (Gravity's Rainbow). Pynchon is one of those authors that a hip screenwriter (like the one for Buckaroo Banzai) will reference to give themselves some literary street-cred.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 19, 2004 13:19:13 GMT -5
Not a big fan of the make Spike human concept (or Angel for that matter) only because if you do that, the story is essentially over and I'm not ready for that yet! I'm not a big fan of making them human as a reward mostly because it strikes me as an essentially racist idea. Like your blood is your destiny, and being a 'real' person depends on what as well as who you are. Maybe it would be a reward if all the vampires in the world were being wiped out (therefore only the shansued one would survive it) but elsewise it just strikes me wrong. And the way the story with Spike developed to the point where he went and got a soul, or the way Lorne and other demons are portrayed as able to act contrary to type, or the way Harm acts in this ep, all contradict the race=destiny theory so I don't think shanshu will be all reward or all about having been redeemed. I think the writers get how that would look too. Andromeda made me spitting mad in a post-purple story. They'd set up a character who was from a species that preyed on others for food and reproduction (as vampires do) and then made him a monk seeking enlightenment. Yaay, non-racist define your own destiny stuff. Only then once they got rid of the original writer they brought the character back to have him reach a form of redemption and therefore get transformed into something less hairy and considerably lighter skinned. It made me so, so angry that they could do something that seemed to me blatantly racist. I know its also the beauty and the beast story, but that ones always annoyed me for much the same reason (also because if beauty fell for the beast then having him turn all human would be... well, kinda like the one she loved died and a new person with their memories was walking around instead...) On the other hand making either or both vamps human and then having it not be the end of their problems- having them be essentially the same person, or just showing (as they have before) that it isn't the demon in them causing the problem, its the man- that would be interesting. It depends which metaphor they play with really. Having someone give up the drink but still be the person that made them want to drink in the first place is a nice complicated story. Hmmm, another reason to be annoyed at Angel way back when he got time reversed to make him a vampire again- its an example of him running straight back to the drink because he can deal with the world better that way. If becoming human is portrayed as only one of many viable paths- as it can be now there are two vampires walking much the same path for a while, you bring them to a junction and they take both roads- then it could work as a story and go a long way.
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Post by Nickim on Jan 19, 2004 15:20:20 GMT -5
I'm not a big fan of making them human as a reward mostly because it strikes me as an essentially racist idea. Like your blood is your destiny, and being a 'real' person depends on what as well as who you are. Maybe it would be a reward if all the vampires in the world were being wiped out (therefore only the shansued one would survive it) but elsewise it just strikes me wrong. And the way the story with Spike developed to the point where he went and got a soul, or the way Lorne and other demons are portrayed as able to act contrary to type, or the way Harm acts in this ep, all contradict the race=destiny theory so I don't think shanshu will be all reward or all about having been redeemed. I think the writers get how that would look too. Andromeda made me spitting mad in a post-purple story. They'd set up a character who was from a species that preyed on others for food and reproduction (as vampires do) and then made him a monk seeking enlightenment. Yaay, non-racist define your own destiny stuff. Only then once they got rid of the original writer they brought the character back to have him reach a form of redemption and therefore get transformed into something less hairy and considerably lighter skinned. It made me so, so angry that they could do something that seemed to me blatantly racist. I know its also the beauty and the beast story, but that ones always annoyed me for much the same reason (also because if beauty fell for the beast then having him turn all human would be... well, kinda like the one she loved died and a new person with their memories was walking around instead...) On the other hand making either or both vamps human and then having it not be the end of their problems- having them be essentially the same person, or just showing (as they have before) that it isn't the demon in them causing the problem, its the man- that would be interesting. It depends which metaphor they play with really. Having someone give up the drink but still be the person that made them want to drink in the first place is a nice complicated story. Hmmm, another reason to be annoyed at Angel way back when he got time reversed to make him a vampire again- its an example of him running straight back to the drink because he can deal with the world better that way. If becoming human is portrayed as only one of many viable paths- as it can be now there are two vampires walking much the same path for a while, you bring them to a junction and they take both roads- then it could work as a story and go a long way. In the Beauty & The Beast stories I read it was the same person, just with a different face. Re: Harmony's hiring--Wes says he took her from the steno pool to be Angel's secretary, but no one has explained how a vampire got hired by W&H in the first place--remember the alarms that used to sound whenever Angel would break in?
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 19, 2004 15:48:47 GMT -5
In the Beauty & The Beast stories I read it was the same person, just with a different face. I was stretching the point for the comparison. I just meant that if you love someone you love all of them the way they are and changing a substantial portion of them is just an odd kind of reward.
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Post by Wendy on Jan 19, 2004 16:23:52 GMT -5
I was stretching the point for the comparison. I just meant that if you love someone you love all of them the way they are and changing a substantial portion of them is just an odd kind of reward. I got your point, becca (can I call you that?) I feel the same way about the Beauty and the Beast type stories. It seems Beauty fell in love with him warts and all, to make him pretty means that warty people can't find true love. I am a fan of the fanfics that have Spike being good in spite of having no soul. I am far more interested in seeing Spike strive to be a white hat while still battling his demon side. I wanted Buffy to love him without the soul being the catalyst. To acknowledge just how different Spike's demon was from the ordinary vamps she staked nightly. Once he got the soul, I felt that he should have said, "sorry, you had to love me warts and all to get in on the soul-fest." Being a little facetious, but you probably get my point. Anyway, I don't really want to see either of our souled boys becoming human.
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Post by Karen on Jan 19, 2004 16:32:11 GMT -5
What can I say - always a pleasure to read your reviews, Nan. You always give me so much to think about. As for the Angel - Gunn dynamic, I could be wrong about this but I think Angel has also shared some of his Angel being most truthful moments of the season with Gunn (e.g. the end of Destiny, the "What if I'm not the one" speech) My point with this? Dunno. I'm not even completely sure if I remember this correctly. Yes, Angel shared that moment with Gunn at the end of Destiny. It does seem kind of contradictory that they would show a sympathetic Gunn, if Gunn ends up taking over Angel's "desk". Maybe Angel will give up control willingly? I don't know either.
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Post by Karen on Jan 19, 2004 16:36:53 GMT -5
In the Beauty & The Beast stories I read it was the same person, just with a different face. Re: Harmony's hiring--Wes says he took her from the steno pool to be Angel's secretary, but no one has explained how a vampire got hired by W&H in the first place--remember the alarms that used to sound whenever Angel would break in? W&H must have changed their policy and allowed the vampires in their organization.
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Post by Rachael on Jan 19, 2004 17:27:51 GMT -5
I was stretching the point for the comparison. I just meant that if you love someone you love all of them the way they are and changing a substantial portion of them is just an odd kind of reward. While I can see your point, I think that there's an issue in both the B&B stories and the Shanshu prophecy that makes it much more than just a matter of accepting and loving yourself for what you are. In both cases, the person being changed started out in life as a human, and at least in the case of the Beast (and arguably Angel), they want desperately to be human again. The characters themselves perceive being human as better than being, respectively, a beast or a vampire. They were already changed, against their will. Spike, on the other hand, doesn't really seem to have a sincere desire to be human again. He seems to like the vampire gig. In addition, in the B&B story, the reward wasn't for the girl who loved the Beast; it was for the Beast himself. He redeemed himself by being a good enough person that she could love him despite his appearance, and was rewarded by returning to humanity. (Admittedly, the story is a bit more complicated than this.) Finally, although in an ideal world, folks would love everything about one another, the reality is that often we love people despite certain characteristics, as is exemplified in the B&B story. And vampirism is so often being used as a metaphor for alcoholism and other addictions, which are aspects of people that, even if we love them, we want them to change. In the real world, that change is behavioral (like Harmony and Angel and Spike not drinking human blood), but we'd love it if there was a way to effect a "cure" that would remove the addiction.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 19, 2004 17:44:21 GMT -5
While I can see your point, I think that there's an issue in both the B&B stories and the Shanshu prophecy that makes it much more than just a matter of accepting and loving yourself for what you are. In both cases, the person being changed started out in life as a human, and at least in the case of the Beast (and arguably Angel), they want desperately to be human again. The characters themselves perceive being human as better than being, respectively, a beast or a vampire. They were already changed, against their will. Point. although 'against their will' is complicated since Angel chose, with the rewind, to become a vampire again. The thing is there are a lot of times when the race part of the metaphor is real clear, and race isn't something you choose or change, though you can fake it. Like that girl in 'are you now...' who was concerned about 'passing', in that ep for white when she wasn't. Angel was passing for human when he wasn't. So the vampire=race thing is right up there in the foreground. It totally isn't the only metaphor in play, it is just the one that makes devamping someone a little problematic as a reward.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 19, 2004 17:46:45 GMT -5
I feel the same way about the Beauty and the Beast type stories. It seems Beauty fell in love with him warts and all, to make him pretty means that warty people can't find true love. Why Shrek rules
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Post by Wendy on Jan 19, 2004 18:03:08 GMT -5
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Jan 19, 2004 18:37:27 GMT -5
hey Nan,
Good review. I liked your corporate America insights.
I was sad, though, that you called the plot "thin and unconvincing" or somthing like that. I though the plot was meant to be a parody (sort of like that ad clip at the beginning.) I thought that ME was doing a dash of "The Zeppo"'s skewed perspective and throwing in a bit of "Nine to Five" parody. How else could you possibly explain the chopsticks!
Also- someone on this thread (sorry I can't recall who) said that the story had very little meaning. I think there is a lot of meaning in the ep (9-5 parody or not) with regards to the way the staff at W and H perceive Angel and the status quo at W and H.
The major challenge in Angel's life right now is to learn to run W and H. It's a tool he needs to learn to use- or he shouldn't be playing with it. It's interesting that this episode shows Harmony trying (sucessfully) to do her job well- that's pretty much her life's purpose. on the other hand, Angel is doing his job poorly. Sure, his mission is "good", but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I think it's sink or swim at W and H for Angel, and I think we see him sinking in this ep.
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Post by Nickim on Jan 19, 2004 18:43:02 GMT -5
W&H must have changed their policy and allowed the vampires in their organization. Just one of those things we're supposed to conviently forget about. Or maybe they started hiring vampires when they decided to let Angel take over.
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Post by Nickim on Jan 19, 2004 18:46:42 GMT -5
hey Nan, Good review. I liked your corporate America insights. I was sad, though, that you called the plot "thin and unconvincing" or somthing like that. I though the plot was meant to be a parody (sort of like that ad clip at the beginning.) I thought that ME was doing a dash of "The Zeppo"'s skewed perspective and throwing in a bit of "Nine to Five" parody. How else could you possibly explain the chopsticks! Also- someone on this thread (sorry I can't recall who) said that the story had very little meaning. I think there is a lot of meaning in the ep (9-5 parody or not) with regards to the way the staff at W and H perceive Angel and the status quo at W and H. The major challenge in Angel's life right now is to learn to run W and H. It's a tool he needs to learn to use- or he shouldn't be playing with it. It's interesting that this episode shows Harmony trying (sucessfully) to do her job well- that's pretty much her life's purpose. on the other hand, Angel is doing his job poorly. Sure, his mission is "good", but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I think it's sink or swim at W and H for Angel, and I think we see him sinking in this ep. I think you're right, tlv. If Wes had told Angel that the demons in question ate camel, Angel would have made sure they had a camel. I never cared for Harmony, but I felt sorry for her in this ep.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 19, 2004 18:50:33 GMT -5
Just one of those things we're supposed to conviently forget about. Or maybe they started hiring vampires when they decided to let Angel take over. Reunion:Lindsey: "Yes? (Listens and hangs the phone back up) General alert. (Heads for the door) There's an untagged vampire in the building." Key word- untagged. It isn't that the vampire detectors keep all the vampires out, its that they keep track of them so they know who is a vampire and where they are.
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