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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 19, 2004 18:57:18 GMT -5
I'm not a big fan of making them human as a reward mostly because it strikes me as an essentially racist idea. Like your blood is your destiny, and being a 'real' person depends on what as well as who you are. Maybe it would be a reward if all the vampires in the world were being wiped out (therefore only the shansued one would survive it) but elsewise it just strikes me wrong. And the way the story with Spike developed to the point where he went and got a soul, or the way Lorne and other demons are portrayed as able to act contrary to type, or the way Harm acts in this ep, all contradict the race=destiny theory so I don't think shanshu will be all reward or all about having been redeemed. I think the writers get how that would look too. Andromeda made me spitting mad in a post-purple story. They'd set up a character who was from a species that preyed on others for food and reproduction (as vampires do) and then made him a monk seeking enlightenment. Yaay, non-racist define your own destiny stuff. Only then once they got rid of the original writer they brought the character back to have him reach a form of redemption and therefore get transformed into something less hairy and considerably lighter skinned. It made me so, so angry that they could do something that seemed to me blatantly racist. I know its also the beauty and the beast story, but that ones always annoyed me for much the same reason (also because if beauty fell for the beast then having him turn all human would be... well, kinda like the one she loved died and a new person with their memories was walking around instead...) On the other hand making either or both vamps human and then having it not be the end of their problems- having them be essentially the same person, or just showing (as they have before) that it isn't the demon in them causing the problem, its the man- that would be interesting. It depends which metaphor they play with really. Having someone give up the drink but still be the person that made them want to drink in the first place is a nice complicated story. Hmmm, another reason to be annoyed at Angel way back when he got time reversed to make him a vampire again- its an example of him running straight back to the drink because he can deal with the world better that way. If becoming human is portrayed as only one of many viable paths- as it can be now there are two vampires walking much the same path for a while, you bring them to a junction and they take both roads- then it could work as a story and go a long way. One of your usual thoughtful posts, Beccaelizabeth. I always thought the Beast turning human was a cop out too--one of the bases of my admiration for TV's version: Vincent was irreduceably Vincent: he wasn't gonna turn into anything other than what he was. You had to take him or leave him on his own terms. Inasmuch as I think vampires have a validity all their own, independent of "us," I also am not enthused about either Spike or Angel shanshuing. I don't trust the writers to get it right, and the very reasons for us to find them fascinating characters lost to Political Correctness. But then, always big on the xenophilia here--always love and sympathize with the Calibans and Arials of this life....
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 19, 2004 18:57:23 GMT -5
Just one of those things we're supposed to conviently forget about. Or maybe they started hiring vampires when they decided to let Angel take over. I think it's a misunderstanding of earlier seasons of Angel that they do not allow any vampires in the building; we see one walking in vamp face in an episode quite early in Season 2, passing Lindsay and Lilah in the hall, and in "Reprise" the phrase they use is "There's an unregistered vampire in the building" (actually there are two Angel and Darla both). Julia, not smart enough right now to analyse but holding on to memories of minor continuoity
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Post by Rachael on Jan 19, 2004 19:28:08 GMT -5
Point. although 'against their will' is complicated since Angel chose, with the rewind, to become a vampire again. The thing is there are a lot of times when the race part of the metaphor is real clear, and race isn't something you choose or change, though you can fake it. Like that girl in 'are you now...' who was concerned about 'passing', in that ep for white when she wasn't. Angel was passing for human when he wasn't. So the vampire=race thing is right up there in the foreground. It totally isn't the only metaphor in play, it is just the one that makes devamping someone a little problematic as a reward. That's true (both points, but here I'm referring to the Angel choosing to become a vampire again). It's something I've never really understood; he's sorta already had his chance at becoming human, and gave it up. Who's to say he wouldn't do so again? Unless maybe he thinks the shanshu battle will be *the* battle, after which there will be no others?
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Post by Nickim on Jan 19, 2004 19:33:32 GMT -5
Reunion:Lindsey: "Yes? (Listens and hangs the phone back up) General alert. (Heads for the door) There's an untagged vampire in the building." Key word- untagged. It isn't that the vampire detectors keep all the vampires out, its that they keep track of them so they know who is a vampire and where they are. Thank you, be. Now it makes more sense that Harmony would be working there.
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Post by Nickim on Jan 19, 2004 19:36:04 GMT -5
That's true (both points, but here I'm referring to the Angel choosing to become a vampire again). It's something I've never really understood; he's sorta already had his chance at becoming human, and gave it up. Who's to say he wouldn't do so again? Unless maybe he thinks the shanshu battle will be *the* battle, after which there will be no others? I think he views becoming human by Shanshu as something he would deserve, if it came to him. Becoming human by demon blood wasn't proof of redemption.
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Post by Nickim on Jan 19, 2004 19:37:09 GMT -5
I think it's a misunderstanding of earlier seasons of Angel that they do not allow any vampires in the building; we see one walking in vamp face in an episode quite early in Season 2, passing Lindsay and Lilah in the hall, and in "Reprise" the phrase they use is "There's an unregistered vampire in the building" (actually there are two Angel and Darla both). Julia, not smart enough right now to analyse but holding on to memories of minor continuoity Thank you, Julia. It makes more sense now.
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Post by Rachael on Jan 19, 2004 21:29:03 GMT -5
I think he views becoming human by Shanshu as something he would deserve, if it came to him. Becoming human by demon blood wasn't proof of redemption. I suppose; but last time he became a vampire again because him leaving the battle meant something awful happening to Buffy.
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Post by Karen on Jan 20, 2004 9:48:18 GMT -5
Angel is working for redemption, that's true. And he was also working for it before the promise of a Shanshu. It seems that when the promise of a reward comes to the forefront, Angel starts to lose focus. I suppose; but last time he became a vampire again because him leaving the battle meant something awful happening to Buffy. I wonder if the Shanshu is going to be something that either Spike or Angel will be able to refuse. And what the tradeoff will be if one does Shanshu - because in the Jossverse, there is always a tradeoff.
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Post by raenstorm on Jan 20, 2004 10:10:38 GMT -5
Angel is working for redemption, that's true. And he was also working for it before the promise of a Shanshu. It seems that when the promise of a reward comes to the forefront, Angel starts to lose focus. I wonder if the Shanshu is going to be something that either Spike or Angel will be able to refuse. And what the tradeoff will be if one does Shanshu - because in the Jossverse, there is always a tradeoff. Wouldn't the tradeoff be the same was it was in IWRY? By becoming human, they give up their powers and are not as equipped to be the champions that they are now. Actually, I think Angel is the one better prepared for a Shanshu. He would adapt better to having a "normal" job and I don't think he's as tied to his bad-ass image as Spike is at the moment. Spike likes his powers. The only real reason he has for wanting to Shanshu is to be with Buffy (at least that he has shown us).
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Post by Vick on Jan 20, 2004 12:46:12 GMT -5
hey spring summers! thanx for welcoming me. i was wondering on how people really felt about "harm's way" because even though i felt the episode was funny, i just can't help but feel that the episode was a huge let down. i mean i guess i expected more from the episode especially since "lineage" and "destiny" were so great to watch, since this season seems kinda slow and not as interesting as it used to be. plus it was so exciting to see lindsay's face at the end of "destiny." then we get "harm's way" which to me, turned out to be a pointless episode.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 20, 2004 13:06:02 GMT -5
hey spring summers! thanx for welcoming me. i was wondering on how people really felt about "harm's way" because even though i felt the episode was funny, i just can't help but feel that the episode was a huge let down. i mean i guess i expected more from the episode especially since "lineage" and "destiny" were so great to watch, since this season seems kinda slow and not as interesting as it used to be. plus it was so exciting to see lindsay's face at the end of "destiny." then we get "harm's way" which to me, turned out to be a pointless episode. Hi, Vic. Welcom to S 3. It's the vagaries of network TV-dom to build to sweeps in November, then back off and build to another sweeps month in February. This season, Angel seems to be following that pattern. Yes, "Harm's Way" is mostly pleasant fluff...not unlike Harmony herself. No, no major developments in that are apt to have impact on the themes of the season as a whole. When we're able to view the whole season first to last in one sitting, or maybe two, perhaps we'll view this as a light moment, comic relief, and a bit of character development for an established, slightly and winningly dim minor character. Though Angel is moving back toward the format of earlier seasons, with a definite development arc but less cause-effect lockdown between events in one episode and repercussions in the next, I think it's been persuasively argued that season 4, with the tight Connor arc, the tight Beast arc, and then the tight Jasmine arc, were rather impenetrable to the casual viewer lacking a scorecard. Having a looser arrangement, with eps like Life of the Party and Harm's Way, is more welcoming to the new/casual viewer, with less offputting supernatural soap opera. After all, how could one react with major Ewwww! at the mating of Cordelia and Connor if one didn't already know, in great detail, all of what had to come together to bring Connor to birth and annoying teenagerhood and the whole history of Cordy with Angel from "Hello, salty goodness!" onward? So bear with the filler eps with what good humor and appreciation you can, with the conviction that things are gonna get down and dirty and dark very shortly (February approaches!) because, after all, this is the Jossverse! And nobody stays happy or unmangled there very long.
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Post by Vick on Jan 20, 2004 15:43:18 GMT -5
Hi, Vic. Welcom to S 3. It's the vagaries of network TV-dom to build to sweeps in November, then back off and build to another sweeps month in February. This season, Angel seems to be following that pattern. Yes, "Harm's Way" is mostly pleasant fluff...not unlike Harmony herself. No, no major developments in that are apt to have impact on the themes of the season as a whole. When we're able to view the whole season first to last in one sitting, or maybe two, perhaps we'll view this as a light moment, comic relief, and a bit of character development for an established, slightly and winningly dim minor character. Though Angel is moving back toward the format of earlier seasons, with a definite development arc but less cause-effect lockdown between events in one episode and repercussions in the next, I think it's been persuasively argued that season 4, with the tight Connor arc. the tight Beast arc, and then the tight Jasmine arc, were rather impenetrable to the casual viewer lacking a scorecard. Having a looser arrangement, with eps like Life of the Party and Harm's Way, is more welcoming to the new/casual viewer, with less offputting supernatural soap opera. After all, how could one react with major Ewwww! at the mating of Cordelia and Connor if one didn't already know, in great detail, all of what had to come together to bring Connor to birth and annoying teenagerhood and the whole history of Cordy with Angel? So bear with the filler eps with what good humor and appreciation you can, with the conviction that things are gonna get down and dirty and dark very shortly (February approaches!) beause, after all, this is the Jossverse! And nobody stays happy or unmangled there very long. i know the writers are writing more lighter, happier, and funnier episodes this season since the show almost got cancelled and that way try to gain more viewers, but i think us angel fans who've been watching the show from the beginning feel that this season seems kinda slow. i think i'm used to the more serious, darker, and edgier episodes in seasons 2-4. i just think that if the show doesn't start getting more interesting and exciting like it used to be (especially after cordy wakes up) then the show might not have a sixth season.
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Post by Karen on Jan 20, 2004 16:17:43 GMT -5
Wouldn't the tradeoff be the same was it was in IWRY? By becoming human, they give up their powers and are not as equipped to be the champions that they are now. Actually, I think Angel is the one better prepared for a Shanshu. He would adapt better to having a "normal" job and I don't think he's as tied to his bad-ass image as Spike is at the moment. Spike likes his powers. The only real reason he has for wanting to Shanshu is to be with Buffy (at least that he has shown us). So, if Angel and/or Spike Shanshu, then the balance will be tipped in the direction of evil, because they won't be as effective as Champions for good. This makes me wonder if TPTB are not working against the Shanshu happening for Angel or Spike. And if that is the case, does that mean that the SP want the Shanshu for Angel - because at the moment, his mission is to help the help/hopeless. So, TPTB dangle the hope of the Shanshu, but don't really want it to happen. They are just using it to give Angel a mission? Edit: - And that seems to be falling apart now that Spike is in the picture.
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Post by Karen on Jan 20, 2004 16:22:09 GMT -5
hey spring summers! thanx for welcoming me. i was wondering on how people really felt about "harm's way" because even though i felt the episode was funny, i just can't help but feel that the episode was a huge let down. i mean i guess i expected more from the episode especially since "lineage" and "destiny" were so great to watch, since this season seems kinda slow and not as interesting as it used to be. plus it was so exciting to see lindsay's face at the end of "destiny." then we get "harm's way" which to me, turned out to be a pointless episode. Hi Vick! I want more Angel/Spike/Wesley interaction, too. And Lindsay! I agree with Nan. ME is trying to appease TPTB and is trying for a "lighter" Angel. This is one of those lighter, fluffier, "attract the younger men" episodes. Did you see the "cat fight"? (I think we'll also get what we need, too - edgy and dark and full of angst. - the sooner the better!) I hope you'll join us on the main board when you get a chance!
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Post by Dev(Rob) on Jan 20, 2004 19:04:25 GMT -5
Vick the ratings seem to be going steady so chances are it may well get a 6th season (I sure to god hope it does) but I think WB are trying to weigh up whether the new feel to Angel (like nan was saying i.e. more one off character episodes for joe random to get into) is working. Hopefully it will please them. Oh and no doubt ME will give us some dark dirty twists soon enough.
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