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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 23, 2004 0:18:02 GMT -5
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Post by Cal on Jan 24, 2004 8:37:10 GMT -5
Great review, as always, Nan. ITA with your interpretaton of this episode. More questions raised than answers given though. But thats what makes the Jossverse so interesting isn't it? Wondering what will happen next? I can't really think of anything else to add at the moment. I look forward to hearing what everyone else has to say.
A job well done Nan - this can't have been an easy review to write!
Cal
Edit: Have read your full version now, Nan. Even better!
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jan 24, 2004 10:19:57 GMT -5
Well, wow! Nan, another great job. This one must have been a bear to write, but a joy as well.
I caught some of the echoes of previous episodes, but there were even some more I'd missed. This one should be re-watched, and I plan to do that.
Thank you for untangling this episode, and laying out all the threads so beautifully. It's going to be a bumpy ride this season, for certain.
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Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 11:15:50 GMT -5
Great job, Nan! You took the intricate and made it simple and clear!
I'll add more comments later, gotta do some RL now.
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Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 12:18:01 GMT -5
I wanted to thank you for highlighting the positive results of the Doyle-Spike "partnership".
Doyle, while he might be untrustworthy, is nevertheless providing Spike with everything he needs to suss out who he is and what he's going to do next:
1. an apartment, furnished with the necessities, that has access to tunnels and protection from killer sunlight. 2. positive feedback for his good works and good effort. 3. positive feedback on how to interact with people. This is important, since, in Spike's ~130 years of life, it's only in the last 4 years he's begun to think of people as something more than food to play with.
I love your insights into how "the plot will out". It clarified brainfog I had about where they are and where they are going.
Pure speculation asked for here: Do you think that Spike and Angel will be allies by the end of the season? 'Cause, clearly, there's something going on between them off camera. And, no, I am NOT talking slash! I am talking about their conversations (viz., Spike's "I told Angel....), becoming more visible to the audience, and their alliance becoming real.
I know that plot's your area, and wondered....if YOU were writing the arc, what would YOU do?
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Post by Nickim on Jan 24, 2004 12:56:27 GMT -5
Great review, Nan. Loved the way you separated the 3 sections. I want to know what's gonna happen in the rest of this season. I'm so spoiled from watching BtVS and AtS on FX and TNT where you can see an entire season in 3 weeks.
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Post by spikeNdru on Jan 24, 2004 14:06:30 GMT -5
Very thought provoking review. there was so much in this episode it practically begs for repeated viewings.
Some little (possibly senseless) things I picked up while watching the ep:
The stripper named "Sunshine"; that was also the name Dru gave to the puppy she brought home for Spike to eat in S2 BtVS. He refused, because he didn't want Dru treating him "like a child". Lindsey's manipulations seemed to be aimed at a lost, childlike Spike whom Lindsey apparently feels will be easy to manipulate.
The bear receiving Angel's *soul* ("A bear! You made a bear! Undo it!") which is actually a *dead goldfish* ("I killed my goldfish!")
*I Luv Andrew* on another message board has suggested that the license plate Fred removed from Angel is the plate that was on the back of Lindsey's car when he left LA in " Dead End". Haven't gotten to check that out for myself yet, but that would be interesting.
All in all, I thoroughly enjoyed this episode and also thoroughly enjoyed both Nan's and makd's reviews. Part of the pleasure in watching is to read what others have thought about the various layers in ME shows. Thanks to you both.
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Post by spikeNdru on Jan 24, 2004 14:09:40 GMT -5
OK, not really sure why strange smileys came up when I placed parentheses in my reply. Also a wierd grim appeared as the 'D' in Dead End.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 24, 2004 14:17:43 GMT -5
OK, not really sure why strange smileys came up when I placed parentheses in my reply. Also a wierd grim appeared as the 'D' in Dead End. The smileys, sometimes fun and sometimes annoying, consist of letters and punctuation. Many of them involve the letter "D." If you want, while you're composing, there's a checkbox that says "Check this if you'll be adding code (or don't like smileys.)" When checked, that box prevents convergences of D and other characters from turning into smileys. Or putting a space between " or ) and D will also prevent it (mostly). However, we who post here all the time are used to it now and can decipher strange intruding smileys almost as though they weren't there. So don't worry about it if you don't care to; it's our board, not your fault. I've fixed your post to eliminate the intruding smileys, and checked the box that will prevent them coming back...unless your post is quoted, at which point they'd reappear unless separated by space (the box only controls the initial posting). All clear/confusing now? #nosmileys
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Post by Dev(Rob) on Jan 24, 2004 15:14:26 GMT -5
As allways Nan, great review! Here are some things I noticed: - Didn't know Angel lives in the W&H building - A lot of matrix style references in this season - harmony with the chopstick fighiting and spikes fight with the vamps on and around the car. - Thought buffy wasn't appearing? Sounded pretty convincingly to me that it was her voice, allright allright I know it was a voice over from an episode in the earlier seasons of buffy but hey! TECHNICALITIES PEOPLE. Didn't Willow appear in Season 2 over the Phone to Cordy? Same difference if you ask me Oh and did it look like Mercedes McNab under Spike in that scene to anyone else or was it just me? - it was fred who did all the hugging and touching of Spike in the 'your a real boy' scene with the fairy and the cake. I think a two way rivalry thing could end up becoming one of the arcs of the season. Spike vs. Wes, Gunn vs. Angel. - Angel was pushing the mail cart in a corporate uniform suggesting he feels as though he's just getting lost in the world of W&H whilst Spike is just becoming the hero. Could he be going the same route as 'Numero Cinco'? Will he die a forgotten champion? Ho Hum... Dev
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 24, 2004 16:04:46 GMT -5
Nan, really really good review. I like the breaking of this one into the hallucinations, what Spike sees and what Angel sees. Also, that though some things are hallucinated, doesn't mean they aren't 'real' - we know Joss hopefully by now...
about the pearls - yeah, yeah, the sexual innuendo, but nobody else seems to note that Angel - an empty shell - was carved open by Fred exactly as one opens an oyster, and his chest parted just as an oyster shell does, and he was full of pearls - which are really valuable... Ok. done with that.
Oh yeah! Gunn half transforms into the conduit and snarls at him - nice!
I also like your comment about not blaming Angel for the dream fears, or Spike for how he appears in the dreams - I think that's important to remember.
And yes, Lindsey MUST expect and plan for Angel to find out about his appearances to Spike, and using the name of Doyle - how shattering would it be to Angel to think that Doyle has come back...and the visions are going to Spike?
I think I could stand the physical torture of Angel in 'The Wish' better than this emotional torture of him...David does pathos so well. Spike in the worst moments of season 7 never seemed so pathetic to me. (that's not an Angel slur - it's a bravo to both actors for being true to their characters.)
I could go on and say 'yeah' to each sentence in your review, but I'll just say I enjoyed this episode AND your review. Thanks!
oh...ok, just one more thing...I think Spike didn't need any strange means of getting into Angel's apartment. He has walked in and out of WR&H without a problem since his arrival - Angel may not 'like' having him there, but he doesn't prevent it. I don't think anyone would think it strange to see Spike there.
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Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 17:16:07 GMT -5
Very thought provoking review. there was so much in this episode it practically begs for repeated viewings. Some little (possibly senseless) things I picked up while watching the ep: The stripper named "Sunshine"; that was also the name Dru gave to the puppy she brought home for Spike to eat in S2 BtVS. He refused, because he didn't want Dru treating him "like a child". Lindsey's manipulations seemed to be aimed at a lost, childlike Spike whom Lindsey apparently feels will be easy to manipulate. The bear receiving Angel's *soul* ("A bear! You made a bear! Undo it!") which is actually a *dead goldfish* ("I killed my goldfish!") *I Luv Andrew* on another message board has suggested that the license plate Fred removed from Angel is the plate that was on the back of Lindsey's car when he left LA in " Dead End". Haven't gotten to check that out for myself yet, but that would be interesting. All in all, I thoroughly enjoyed this episode and also thoroughly enjoyed both Nan's and makd's reviews. Part of the pleasure in watching is to read what others have thought about the various layers in ME shows. Thanks to you both. The license plate is from Louisiana. Is that where Lindsey's from?
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 24, 2004 17:23:02 GMT -5
Nan, really really good review. I like the breaking of this one into the hallucinations, what Spike sees and what Angel sees. Also, that though some things are hallucinated, doesn't mean they aren't 'real' - we know Joss hopefully by now... about the pearls - yeah, yeah, the sexual innuendo, but nobody else seems to note that Angel - an empty shell - was carved open by Fred exactly as one opens an oyster, and his chest parted just as an oyster shell does, and he was full of pearls - which are really valuable... Ok. done with that. Oh yeah! Gunn half transforms into the conduit and snarls at him - nice! I also like your comment about not blaming Angel for the dream fears, or Spike for how he appears in the dreams - I think that's important to remember. And yes, Lindsey MUST expect and plan for Angel to find out about his appearances to Spike, and using the name of Doyle - how shattering would it be to Angel to think that Doyle has come back...and the visions are going to Spike? I think I could stand the physical torture of Angel in 'The Wish' better than this emotional torture of him...David does pathos so well. Spike in the worst moments of season 7 never seemed so pathetic to me. (that's not an Angel slur - it's a bravo to both actors for being true to their characters.) I could go on and say 'yeah' to each sentence in your review, but I'll just say I enjoyed this episode AND your review. Thanks! oh...ok, just one more thing...I think Spike didn't need any strange means of getting into Angel's apartment. He has walked in and out of WR&H without a problem since his arrival - Angel may not 'like' having him there, but he doesn't prevent it. I don't think anyone would think it strange to see Spike there. I'll just point out, Patti, that until a few days ago, Spike was a ghost and NOBODY could prevent his being ANYWHERE. But Angel's penthouse is accessed only through Angel's office, as far as I can tell--the elevator in the lobby doesn't go there, just Angel's private elevator *even though, in the dream, he's shown coming down that way.* So now that Spike is corporeal, I think it very likely the same restrictions have been put on him as any other non-W&H employee (and likely most of them) in the building--he doesn't have unquestioned walk-in accesss to either Angel's office or Angel's private quarters without specific permission from Angel or one of the senior managment. That's conjecture on my part, of course, but I think it's a reasonable assumption. Patti, I again inadvertently modified your post rather than merely quoting it. Sorry. I've put it back the way it was.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 24, 2004 17:24:08 GMT -5
The license plate is from Louisiana. Is that where Lindsey's from? Don't hold me to it, but I believe Lindsey is from Texas.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 24, 2004 17:27:31 GMT -5
As allways Nan, great review! Here are some things I noticed: - Didn't know Angel lives in the W&H building- A lot of matrix style references in this season - harmony with the chopstick fighiting and spikes fight with the vamps on and around the car. - Thought buffy wasn't appearing? Sounded pretty convincingly to me that it was her voice, allright allright I know it was a voice over from an episode in the earlier seasons of buffy but hey! TECHNICALITIES PEOPLE. Didn't Willow appear in Season 2 over the Phone to Cordy? Same difference if you ask me Oh and did it look like Mercedes McNab under Spike in that scene to anyone else or was it just me? - it was fred who did all the hugging and touching of Spike in the 'your a real boy' scene with the fairy and the cake. I think a two way rivalry thing could end up becoming one of the arcs of the season. Spike vs. Wes, Gunn vs. Angel. - Angel was pushing the mail cart in a corporate uniform suggesting he feels as though he's just getting lost in the world of W&H whilst Spike is just becoming the hero. Could he be going the same route as 'Numero Cinco'? Will he die a forgotten champion? Ho Hum... Dev Yeah, Dev: it would appear Angel's penthouse suite is directly above his office, reached by private elevator.
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