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Post by Linda on Jan 24, 2004 18:41:22 GMT -5
Hi Nan, I just stopped quickly by to mention that I completely admire your cogent, complete analysis. You laid things out so clearly. I liked your differentiation between true lies and fake lies. I have a theory, that I didn't see addressed specifically in your analysis. In watching the episode, I was wondering if the report that Gunn and Wes followed up was one of the FAKE lies. The Spike I saw in the episode (before AND after the events supposedly reported to W&H) was not the social Spike that would open up enough to invite anyone to "his" place to listen to the Sex Pistols or have some hooch. It is the kind of thing that an outsider would know/believe of Spike. I think it was another Lindsey manipulation, to get Wes & Gunn to check out Spike despite Eve's little distraction. If my theory is true, then I think Spike may not be buying into the hero thing as completely as Lindsey hopes. I think they have deliberately left that interpretation open because they never showed Spike's face when he tells his rescuees "I'm the hero." As you pointed out, the rescues were REAL and people did need saving, but Spike seems to me to be deliberately biding his time to see if Lindsey tips his hand. And on a separate note, I agree with you on Angel's childish dream images. Although, am I the only person on this board who equated Angel's interpretation of happily ever after to Andrew's "We are Gods!" riff from Storyteller? OK, maybe I am. I think it's kinda cute, cause I have a soft spot for the doofus side of otherwise "cool" people. (It is one of the reasons why I love Spike so much.) It also explains why, in my twisted brain, Angel's dispirited mail-guy shuffle reminded me of Al Bundy. (Apologies for putting that image out, I think.) In any case, thanks for the review, Nan. Linda, who is looking forward to re-watching the episode with your review in mind
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 24, 2004 19:18:05 GMT -5
Spike saving Angel - 'it seems Eve is not in on that particular part of the plot'
Have to disagree Why change clothes if she didnt know Angel was going to wake up? She knew he would be saved, so after he saw her she made sure not to look the same. She knows they all suspect her- but she also knows they know she works for the senior partners. Any suspicion aimed at her will see her as just the messenger, see it as another 'shot across their bow' from the Senior Partners, and split Angel from the SP. Which I believe is the point of the game.
Setting up Spike as maybe the true champion splits the SP from Angel- diverts their attention elsewhere, sets them up to back someone else instead. Divide and conquer, only Wolfram & Hart and the Senior Partners are the target, and the apocalypse the stake.
OTOH I totally agree Lindsey is not completely sharing and has his own game. I just figure that from character not from observed plot so far.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 24, 2004 19:22:31 GMT -5
I have a theory, that I didn't see addressed specifically in your analysis. In watching the episode, I was wondering if the report that Gunn and Wes followed up was one of the FAKE lies. I like your theory. I think I agree with it too, although it does take some of the fun out of imagining Spike swooping in out of the dark to save me... erm, not that I spend a huge amount of time imagining that...
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 24, 2004 19:33:54 GMT -5
Yeah, Dev: it would appear Angel's penthouse suite is directly above his office, reached by private elevator. we know from Lilah from the end of last season said private elevator also leads directly to the luxury cars, which Spike does have permission to access (just not the Viper)(Viper it is then...)(And if he's so short of money he's grateful for that basement that implies he DIDNT SELL THE CAR, just borrowed it). So he comes in, maybe even returning said car, and takes the lift right up to Angel's place. Still shouldnt be possible in any reasonable security plan but actually physically makes sense. Maybe theres a pin number sort of thing and ghosty Spike knows it?
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 24, 2004 19:35:39 GMT -5
Nan,
Great job.
Reading your review I was reminded that, while Eve and Lindsey are playing both Spike and Angel and his cohort, Spike seems to be constantly conscious of that, and is playing along, for now, while the AI people are so entangled in the complexities of Wolfram and Heart that they are being played without (yet) having gained consciousness of that fact.
Julia, next time I rewatch SP I'm tempted to count the number of uses of the word "play" and allusions to game playing:)
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Post by makd on Jan 24, 2004 22:17:56 GMT -5
Nan, Great job. Reading your review I was reminded that, while Eve and Lindsey are playing both Spike and Angel and his cohort, Spike seems to be constantly conscious of that, and is playing along, for now, while the AI people are so entangled in the complexities of Wolfram and Heart that they are being played without (yet) having gained consciousness of that fact. Julia, next time I rewatch SP I'm tempted to count the number of uses of the word "play" and allusions to game playing:) Yes! and, didn't Lindsey previously warn Angel about W&H's game, and to play his own game? Really, after 10 episodes, I am now waiting for each one with baited (spell?) breath. Oh, and can't you see the slashficathon with Ersatz!Doyle/Spike and Spike/Angel? I mean....how did Spike get into Angel's apartment? We know they talk...
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 24, 2004 22:25:13 GMT -5
Yes! and, didn't Lindsey previously warn Angel about W&H's game, and to play his own game? Really, after 10 episodes, I am now waiting for each one with baited (spell?) breath. Oh, and can't you see the slashficathon with Ersatz!Doyle/Spike and Spike/Angel? I mean.... how did Spike get into Angel's apartment? We know they talk... Isn't it true that vampires don't have the right of invitation over their own lairs? That's what Angel says as he and Wes go into (botheration- Angel's puritan childe)'s apartment in "Somnambulist". I have no problem with Spike waltzing in and out of W&H at will, either; if he didn't spend a good bit of his haunting period figuring out how to get around the security system, I don't know what he was doing Julia, do believe the time has come for me to go watch SP again, all the way through this time, not just the fight scenes
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 24, 2004 22:49:02 GMT -5
Isn't it true that vampires don't have the right of invitation over their own lairs? That's what Angel says as he and Wes go into (botheration- Angel's puritan childe)'s apartment in "Somnambulist". Penn Yes, doesn't need an invite to another vamp's (or other demon's) place. Must mean only if vamp owns it because otherwise Spike in the basement would leave the whole house unprotected. www.atpobtvs.com/vampires.htmlgots all the useful stuff I have no problem with Spike waltzing in and out of W&H at will, either; if he didn't spend a good bit of his haunting period figuring out how to get around the security system, I don't know what he was doing ooooh, of course! He would know more about the building than, like, anyone.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 24, 2004 23:51:25 GMT -5
Spike saving Angel - 'it seems Eve is not in on that particular part of the plot' Have to disagree Why change clothes if she didnt know Angel was going to wake up? . When Angel mentioned that Eve had changed clothes, my first thought was that she had cleaned up all traces of 'Junior' because the gang didn't know or even perhaps believe Angel's mention of the 'first' critter. I thought she must have gotten critter goop on her clothes and that's why she changed. talk about fanwank..
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 25, 2004 10:53:24 GMT -5
When Angel mentioned that Eve had changed clothes, my first thought was that she had cleaned up all traces of 'Junior' because the gang didn't know or even perhaps believe Angel's mention of the 'first' critter. I thought she must have gotten critter goop on her clothes and that's why she changed. talk about fanwank.. Hey, works for me. Personally, if I were going to try to convince someone I was a hallucination I'd wear something less easily describable than a green patterned sleeveless thing with ruffles down the sides. Julia, and it defeinately wouldn't be what I'd worn in public all day!
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Post by KMInfinity on Jan 25, 2004 12:24:50 GMT -5
Wonderful, detailed, insightful review.... It’s a tribute to this show (and JM) that I would love to see a repeat of those two seasons, but with Spike. Not the exact episodes, but the same themes, players, etc. I find myself hoping that the parallels are sufficiently drawn out and developed over the rest of the season, rather than being resolved by Lindsey revealing them to Angel sooner than later. In fact, I’d like to see Spike gather a “Fang Gang” of his own! If not by “suborning” Angel’s, perhaps by gathering characters similar in nature... Harmony=Cordy at that stage? Andrew=Wes? What fun to speculate in such fertile ground. Soul Purpose=sole purpose - Angels’ sole purpose was to “help the helpless” one soul at a time... He even says the “one at a time” line somewhere, I believe. I think that JW may be also developing a theme (well, one of many ) that there is actually something “better” about that approach than the “wholesale” approach the FG are trying at W&H. This is over and above the way W&H may be compromising the FG. Is there some intrinsic value to saving one soul at a time, in a personal way, instead of saving literally hundreds in a “corporate” way? Mathematically, (again, ignoring the spiritual cost to the FG) arent Angel and company correct that they ARE saving many more people than could be done one at a time? Yet, without the “human touch” is some other value being lost somehow? This idea intrigues me, because even if the FG do indeed resist all attempts to seduce them from their values, I would rather see Spike’s successes than Angel’s, given these different approaches. It reminds me that humanity is very complex, and though it sounds like hersesy, perhaps Spock is wrong and the needs of the many do not outweigh the needs of the one. Do they know (or think they know) something about Angel’s/Spike’s future roles? All in all this episode clearly thumbs the nose at TPTB at the network concerning season arcs and stand alone episodes. It’s one of the strongest episodes this year IMO, and has me eager for more.
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Post by Sue on Jan 25, 2004 13:09:31 GMT -5
Wonderful, detailed, insightful review.... Is there some intrinsic value to saving one soul at a time, in a personal way, instead of saving literally hundreds in a “corporate” way? Mathematically, (again, ignoring the spiritual cost to the FG) arent Angel and company correct that they ARE saving many more people than could be done one at a time? Yet, without the “human touch” is some other value being lost somehow? This idea intrigues me, because even if the FG do indeed resist all attempts to seduce them from their values, I would rather see Spike’s successes than Angel’s, given these different approaches. It reminds me that humanity is very complex, and though it sounds like hersesy, perhaps Spock is wrong and the needs of the many do not outweigh the needs of the one. First, a shout out to KM on graduating from junior S'cubie to (full-fledged) S'cubie. I'm about to post my own reactions to the review, then go back thru others, but especially wanted to comment on the above paragraph. This is an intriguing question. Not just in with regard to the W & H vs Personal!Spike question. (Need I tell you which one I'd rather be rescued by?), but also in real life. I mean, Bill Gates gives billions of dollars to schools, libraries, health-care, health-care in third world countries. Is that somehow superior or inferior to the person who takes his/her lunch hour and takes the homeless guy on the street to get a hot bowl of soup. I think the answer is: neither is superior/inferior. Nobody in their right mind would suggest that Bill keep his millions and go out taking Seattle's homeless to lunch one at a time. BUT, I think it is Bill's (i.e. the FG's) loss if he/they only give billions, impersonally and do not also put him/themselves personally on the line one-to-one. As individuals we "save the souls" of each person we meet in a day in the way we treat/interact with them. I don't suppose that ME is trying to preach at us, but I do think that this is a reflection of Angel's quote to Connor: "But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be." I think I may be losing the thread of my point. To try to sum up: Yes the FG are doing good (well, grayish-good) thinks via W&H and possibly large numbers of people are being helped. But, it is still necessary and in fact essential for the moral/spiritual health of the gang themselves that they still interact and "save" individuals on a one-to-one basis. Or they will continue to be disconnected from their mission. (This is also similar to what Doyle said to Angel in episode 1.1) All that to say: great observation, KM.
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Post by Sue on Jan 25, 2004 13:44:50 GMT -5
This complex episode has three main narrative strands: 1. What Angel hallucinates. 2. What Spike sees. 3. What’s actually happening.
This was very helpful.
The opening sequence is not a true flashback to “Destiny,” though it seems so.
Thanks, this was a question I had.
. Angel fears that when all the basic, useless stuff is removed, somebody will be able to look in and find that he’s completely empty—no more than a shell.
I know the writer's are supposedly writing for the character, but this made me wonder how much the writer was projecting his own personal fears.
in regard to the corner block Eve injects as a fast-tracked priority item despite Angel’s unavailability,
Regarding questions of what Eve and Lindsey are in on together vs who is playing whom in what manner, the exchange between E and L in bed where he asks if the others are being distracted makes it absolutely clear, in the way in which she answers his question, that the stone fragment with runes really is a SPs project and Eve really is doing their bidding in asking for the gang to examine it.
the teenaged Buffy that she no longer is, but Angel still imagines her as,
This is an excellent point. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Of course, I knew Angel was jealous of Spike and Buffy's "relationship" but I hadn't thought about Angel still viewing her as a teenager. Also, I did ask myself why Angel wasn't surprised by Spike and Buffy being involved sexually. Her little, "he's in my heart" speech made no mention of their past sex-capades. She must have told him a lot more after Spike died, in that 19 days before he popped out of the amulet. We do know she told him about Spike's soul and his sacrifice in "Chosen" so she must have also told him some of the backstory to explain why Spike got the soul. This may be one of the issues also clouding Angel's treatment of Spike.
What Spike sees, beginning in the strip club, “The Peppermint Stick,” is a stranger (Lindsey) who identifies himself as “Doyle,” who knows much more about him than he should and claims to be a go-between sent to Spike by the Powers That Be. The actual Doyle (sadly deceased in A S1) was such an emissary, and for all I know at this point, Lindsey may in fact be, too. Really.
Totally disagree with you here, Nan. I don't buy it at all. Every other thing Lindsey says is that exchange is PURE LIES, so I'm not buying that him pointing upwards to suggest that he's aligned with TPTB is anything other than a lie as well. It's just part of playing " Doyle."
But there’s no reason for him to identify himself as Doyle to Spike, to whom neither the name Lindsey nor the name Doyle means anything, if Lindsey didn’t expect the imposture to be exposed at some point. In other words, he expects the imposture to be discovered and the parallels set up here to Angel’s experience to be laid out plainly for both Angel and Spike to see.
YUP--but why?
. So the saves are real, no matter how Lindsey/Doyle knew about them before the fact.
Yup
The manufactured experiences Spike is being led through by his highly skeptical nose are REAL experiences. Therefore his rescue (which Lindsey obviously intended) of Angel from parasite Sr. is a REAL rescue.
Double yup
it seems Eve is not in on that particular part of the plot.
I think this is unknown, but tend to agree.
He reiterates the truth he’s been saying practically from the beginning: that the Fang Gang is being eaten alive in the belly of the W & H Beast, and he wants no part of it. He accepts none of their self-justifying rationalizations. ......However, they haven’t consulted Angel about any of this, and without Angel’s approval, their offer means nothing…and Spike figures that out without effort.
No matter what Spike's issues with Angel, I think this still speaks to a loyalty of sorts--and "us" (souled vampires) vs "them" (all the human cliques with their own unknown agendas) attitude.
even Angel’s death would have been a plus.
yeah, clearly it would have been okay with them if Spike had killed Angel in Destiny. But, maybe not so okay with the SPs. This killing of Angel issue also makes me certain that Lindsey is not working with TPTB.
It doesn’t seem that Angel’s rescue, and Eve being suspected and accused afterward, would be the plan as Eve knew it.
Tend to agree here. Hmm, shouldn't she leave W & H and go find Lindsey and ask him what the hell he was doing--sending Spike to rescue Angel. Or is she stupid enough to think that was coincidence?
It would seem Eve is genuinely the agent of the Senior Partners, although she’s been willing to keep them in the dark
yep, yep, with you
. It might be The Powers That Be (though there’s no current proof of it
nope, nope, not buying it
. However, I hope this review has helped us all sort the true lies from the fake lies, so we all can be better prepared for whatever comes after.
Indeed, it has, greatly. Spectacular job Nan.
Dialogue: Spike: I mean, honestly! What kind of retard wears heels like that in a dark alley? Take two steps and break your bloody ankle.
Only Spike would notice the footwear! I mean, I could have just called her a retard for being alone at night in a dark alley, but Spike has to throw the "heels" comment in. That, along with the shot of Eve removing her spike heels at the end of Destiny and Harmony putting hers on in "Harm's Way" makes me think the shoe thing is definitely a running verbal/sight gag.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 25, 2004 14:33:15 GMT -5
Is there some intrinsic value to saving one soul at a time, in a personal way, instead of saving literally hundreds in a “corporate” way? Mathematically, (again, ignoring the spiritual cost to the FG) arent Angel and company correct that they ARE saving many more people than could be done one at a time? Yet, without the “human touch” is some other value being lost somehow? One thing that has been annoying me pretty much ever since Doyle died is that at some point Angel stopped saving souls and just saved lives. Which I'll grant is a pretty big 'just' but it wasn't the mission. At W&H they are saving lives- by encouraging deception, backstabbing, Judas plays. Not saving souls. Some Demons are being held to higher standards of behaviour than they would otherwise be but it isnt done with the idea that it would save those demons, just their victims. If demons have souls to save, that mission isnt being served well either. Spike's little diatribe to the daft woman in the alley did more to save her in the long term than just stabbing the vamp would, but Angel would have left it at vamp dusted, girl saved, swoop off into the night. Its that kind of personal, as in person to person not muscle to dust, saveage that is missing at W&H and with Angel for a while.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 25, 2004 16:07:24 GMT -5
Quoting my review, with her own bolded comments, Sue said:
Angel fears that when all the basic, useless stuff is removed, somebody will be able to look in and find that he’s completely empty—no more than a shell.
I know the writer's are supposedly writing for the character, but this made me wonder how much the writer was projecting his own personal fears.
Sue, I don't think that kind of personal subtext would make it through the story review process. This is one of Angel's fears, per the ep.
In regard to the corner block Eve injects as a fast-tracked priority item despite Angel’s unavailability,
Regarding questions of what Eve and Lindsey are in on together vs who is playing whom in what manner, the exchange between E and L in bed where he asks if the others are being distracted makes it absolutely clear, in the way in which she answers his question, that the stone fragment with runes really is a SPs project and Eve really is doing their bidding in asking for the gang to examine it.
I agree, it's a SP project; but I think the way Eve demands that everything be dropped to concentrate on it is Eve's finessing to make them deal with it by going *around* the absent Angel, against established chain-of-command protocol (per Harmony) and also to keep the FG distracted and occupied. Specifically, she derails Fred from checking on Angel by essentially shoving the investigation of the block in her face, and Fred backs off to attend to it, as intended.
the teenaged Buffy that she no longer is, but Angel still imagines her as,
This is an excellent point. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Of course, I knew Angel was jealous of Spike and Buffy's "relationship" but I hadn't thought about Angel still viewing her as a teenager. Also, I did ask myself why Angel wasn't surprised by Spike and Buffy being involved sexually. Her little, "he's in my heart" speech made no mention of their past sex-capades. She must have told him a lot more after Spike died, in that 19 days before he popped out of the amulet. We do know she told him about Spike's soul and his sacrifice in "Chosen" so she must have also told him some of the backstory to explain why Spike got the soul. This may be one of the issues also clouding Angel's treatment of Spike.
Angel doesn't have to *know* to imagine. Remember, this is a dream, not a thought or even a memory of anything he's been told. So he doesn't have to *know* Buffy and Spike have been lovers to have a dream about their being in bed together (with him as unwilling onlooker).
What Spike sees, beginning in the strip club, “The Peppermint Stick,” is a stranger (Lindsey) who identifies himself as “Doyle,” who knows much more about him than he should and claims to be a go-between sent to Spike by the Powers That Be. The actual Doyle (sadly deceased in A S1) was such an emissary, and for all I know at this point, Lindsey may in fact be, too. Really.
Totally disagree with you here, Nan. I don't buy it at all. Every other thing Lindsey says is that exchange is PURE LIES, so I'm not buying that him pointing upwards to suggest that he's aligned with TPTB is anything other than a lie as well. It's just part of playing " Doyle."
I just say, NOT PROVEN. The ep leaves this open, so I do, too, pending further information.
But there’s no reason for him to identify himself as Doyle to Spike, to whom neither the name Lindsey nor the name Doyle means anything, if Lindsey didn’t expect the imposture to be exposed at some point. In other words, he expects the imposture to be discovered and the parallels set up here to Angel’s experience to be laid out plainly for both Angel and Spike to see.
YUP--but why?
For that, we're gonna have to wait on events. I just say, why pick " Doyle," since it means nothing to Spike?
He reiterates the truth he’s been saying practically from the beginning: that the Fang Gang is being eaten alive in the belly of the W & H Beast, and he wants no part of it. He accepts none of their self-justifying rationalizations. ......However, they haven’t consulted Angel about any of this, and without Angel’s approval, their offer means nothing…and Spike figures that out without effort.
No matter what Spike's issues with Angel, I think this still speaks to a loyalty of sorts--and "us" (souled vampires) vs "them" (all the human cliques with their own unknown agendas) attitude.
Perhaps. All I see is that Spike knows if Angel doesn't sign off on it, it's not gonna happen. He's asked Angel for an office, and Angel could have offered him a job as soon as Spike was corporeal. Neither of those things happened. So I think he's reasonable in assuming Angel doesn't want him at W&H and would accept no deal that Wes and Gunn made that put him there.
even Angel’s death would have been a plus.
yeah, clearly it would have been okay with them if Spike had killed Angel in Destiny. But, maybe not so okay with the SPs. This killing of Angel issue also makes me certain that Lindsey is not working with TPTB.
But Eve had the line (at the end of Destiny) that Angel wasn't even killed. All Lindsey offers to that is silence, which tells me nothing, either way.
It might be The Powers That Be (though there’s no current proof of it.
nope, nope, not buying it
All I say is, I can't rule it out at this point. The PTB are quite as capable as the SP of not considering a human life, or vamp unlife, as very important. So Lindsey could be a slime and *still* in cahoots, to some degree, with TPTB. We'll see. I'm willing to be convinced by evidence that supports either position.
Dialogue: Spike: I mean, honestly! What kind of retard wears heels like that in a dark alley? Take two steps and break your bloody ankle.
Only Spike would notice the footwear! I mean, I could have just called her a retard for being alone at night in a dark alley, but Spike has to throw the "heels" comment in. That, along with the shot of Eve removing her spike heels at the end of Destiny and Harmony putting hers on in "Harm's Way" makes me think the shoe thing is definitely a running verbal/sight gag.
I think you're right! Channeling Imelda Marcos here, perhaps? #nosmileys
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