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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 25, 2004 16:53:24 GMT -5
I wanted to add to the list the contrast between Angel's bare feet and Fred's T-strap dance pumps ("character shoes" to a dancer or musical comedy performer, very reminiscent of the shoes competitive ballroom dancers wear). Shoes are everywhere this season Julia, and WHY are Angel's pants so short in that shot?
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Post by KMInfinity on Jan 25, 2004 18:36:36 GMT -5
Yay me. full fledged 'n all 'at... Sue, thanks for being more specific - You're exactly right and I wasn't clear. It's possible that the FG at W&H are saving hundreds of lives and no souls. I guess that's better than nothing - but I am assuming the people touched personally are in a better position to make changes and become better people after their lives are saved. Kinda reminds me of my conservative gran's comment that community charity (such as from a church or a neighbor) is usually repaid somehow. The people realize it was a sacrifice by individuals. Whereas welfare from the state is taken for granted. Now, I don't know if it's true or not... (are there any fankwank "fake research" sites? ) but it "seems" logical to assume... Maybe it's my calvinistic upbringing.
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Post by Sue on Jan 25, 2004 19:19:34 GMT -5
**From Nan's original review: What Spike sees, beginning in the strip club, “The Peppermint Stick,” is a stranger (Lindsey) who identifies himself as “Doyle,” who knows much more about him than he should and claims to be a go-between sent to Spike by the Powers That Be. The actual Doyle (sadly deceased in A S1) was such an emissary, and for all I know at this point, Lindsey may in fact be, too. Really. Sue's initial reply: Totally disagree with you here, Nan. I don't buy it at all. Every other thing Lindsey says is that exchange is PURE LIES, so I'm not buying that him pointing upwards to suggest that he's aligned with TPTB is anything other than a lie as well. It's just part of playing " Doyle."Nan's response: I just say, NOT PROVEN. The ep leaves this open, so I do, too, pending further information. Original review: It might be The Powers That Be (though there’s no current proof of it. And, Sue again: nope, nope, not buying itAnd Nan's response: All I say is, I can't rule it out at this point. The PTB are quite as capable as the SP of not considering a human life, or vamp unlife, as very important. So Lindsey could be a slime and *still* in cahoots, to some degree, with TPTB. We'll see. I'm willing to be convinced by evidence that supports either position.Nan-- I'll see your blue and raise you a red: Regarding the above exchange, we're probably going to have to agree to disagree. With the (highly remote in my opinion) possibility that Lindsey is being used by the PTB without his knowledge I think there is compelling evidence to draw the conclusion that he is not working for them
Mainly, this exchange in the strip club:
Spike: I've heard enough.
Lindsey: Don't you even want to know why you came back to L.A.? You hate this city. There's got to be a reason, right? (this actually is very interesting given the discussion about Spike's excuse to Harmony--it there some outside force still compelling him somehow?)
Spike: You talk a lot for somebody saying nothing.
Lindsey: You got a destiny.
S: Like the destiny that was supposed to e at the bottom of acup of perpetual nothing?
L: What? (As if he knew nothing about it, clear lie)
S: You know so much about me you must know I get really violent when I'm being played. It was you who sent Angel and me on that wild goose chase.
L: I don't know anything. (lie) I'm just doing what they tell me.
S: They?
L: They...them.. (points up). Bringing you back. Look I'm just a guy, a nobody, a drifter (lie). I was minding my own business and then one day, wham, I stared having visions. (lie)
So, I'm going to go with my opinion that Lindsey didn't suddenly tell Spike one true thing in the middle of all those obvious lies. It's gonna take a heep of fresh evidence to convince me otherwise.
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 25, 2004 19:24:16 GMT -5
Great review Nan (or should that be average, since they're always great?).
One thing tho'...I'm still wondering how much of this ep "really" happened. Some of the bits btwn Spike and Lindsay/Doyle don't really add up either. Why would Spike complain about the bed? It's better than his old cot back at Casa Summers, no?
There's no blood in Spike's fridge, only beer. We haven't seen Spike drink any blood since he drained Angel's mug in Destiny.
I don't think Wes and Gunn are ready to give up on Angel yet, and certainly not for Spike. So far this season, the only member of the FG who's shown any real support for Spike is Fred.
The name Doyle means nothing to Spike, but has meaning for Angel. Ditto the name Lindsay. If Lindsay really wanted to conceal his identity, why not choose a name that has no meaning to Angel?
KTLA (our WB affiliate) went out briefly towards the end of this ep, so I don't know if I missed anything significant in that moment. I think it's possible the only things that actually happened here are the scene(s) w/EveL and Spike's rescue of Angel. Is there a word encompasing both ridiculous and pathetic? If so, I think it applies here. Angel is crippled by his insecurities. Spike may be a rival, but he's hardly a threat. Spike beat Angel in the fight in Destiny. That's all Spike really wanted, just to take Angel down a peg. Baiting Angel is habit (not that it isn't fun), but not Spike's raison d'etre. He's the one who Tells It Like It Is, and Angel refuses to listen. Angel might as well put his hands to his ears and shout "Nobody's hearin' nuthin'!" like Miracle Max in The Princess Bride.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 25, 2004 22:21:13 GMT -5
Great review Nan (or should that be average, since they're always great?). One thing tho'...I'm still wondering how much of this ep "really" happened. Some of the bits btwn Spike and Lindsay/Doyle don't really add up either. Why would Spike complain about the bed? It's better than his old cot back at Casa Summers, no? There's no blood in Spike's fridge, only beer. We haven't seen Spike drink any blood since he drained Angel's mug in Destiny. I don't think Wes and Gunn are ready to give up on Angel yet, and certainly not for Spike. So far this season, the only member of the FG who's shown any real support for Spike is Fred. The name Doyle means nothing to Spike, but has meaning for Angel. Ditto the name Lindsay. If Lindsay really wanted to conceal his identity, why not choose a name that has no meaning to Angel?KTLA (our WB affiliate) went out briefly towards the end of this ep, so I don't know if I missed anything significant in that moment. I think it's possible the only things that actually happened here are the scene(s) w/EveL and Spike's rescue of Angel. Is there a word encompasing both ridiculous and pathetic? If so, I think it applies here. Angel is crippled by his insecurities. Spike may be a rival, but he's hardly a threat. Spike beat Angel in the fight in Destiny. That's all Spike really wanted, just to take Angel down a peg. Baiting Angel is habit (not that it isn't fun), but not Spike's raison d'etre. He's the one who Tells It Like It Is, and Angel refuses to listen. Angel might as well put his hands to his ears and shout "Nobody's hearin' nuthin'!" like Miracle Max in The Princess Bride. Re the bolded, above: Lindsey's choosing to call himself " Doyle" is what persuaded me that he means to have his "leading" of Spike through a version of S1-2 Angel's experiences revealed to Angel at some point. As we both noted, " Doyle" means no more than "Mahoney" to Spike--only to Angel (and Cordy) would the name have significance. So I think Lindsey would have chosen something random unless it was intended, eventually, to signify to Angel.
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Post by RAKSHA on Jan 25, 2004 23:34:28 GMT -5
Excellent review, Nan!
I also noticed that the 'Buffy' in Angel's hallucination was the high school senior who Angel danced with at her prom - not the tougher and older woman of Seasons 6-7. Angel still thinks of Buffy as the teenager she was when he left; he doesn't love the woman she's become.
Interesting that Gunn and Wesley are becoming so much the senior Vice President types, stepping in to run things when the Big Guy's under the weather. If the Fang Gang ever disengages from W&H, I think that Gunn will opt to stay.GAIL
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 26, 2004 14:58:16 GMT -5
Re the bolded, above: Lindsey's choosing to call himself " Doyle" is what persuaded me that he means to have his "leading" of Spike through a version of S1-2 Angel's experiences revealed to Angel at some point. As we both noted, " Doyle" means no more than "Mahoney" to Spike--only to Angel (and Cordy) would the name have significance. So I think Lindsey would have chosen something random unless it was intended, eventually, to signify to Angel. I don't necessarily disagree with you here. I'm just wondering if all the small things that don't add up are actual clues or just ME McGuffins. I'm reserving judgement thru the next couple of eps to see how much of what we were shown in Soul Purpose was "real." Spike's supposed use of the word "hooch" was another of those little things (plus listening to records - this guy owns the clothes he stands up in, and that's all). Spike is hip enough to know no one uses words like hooch anymore. Hooch seems more like an Angel thing to me. I wonder if the Lindsay/Doyle & Spike interactions weren't as much a part of Angel's hallucinations as almost everything else we saw in this ep.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 26, 2004 15:05:04 GMT -5
I don't necessarily disagree with you here. I'm just wondering if all the small things that don't add up are actual clues or just ME McGuffins. I'm reserving judgement thru the next couple of eps to see how much of what we were shown in Soul Purpose was "real." Spike's supposed use of the word "hooch" was another of those little things (plus listening to records - this guy owns the clothes he stands up in, and that's all). Spike is hip enough to know no one uses words like hooch anymore. Hooch seems more like an Angel thing to me. I wonder if the Lindsay/Doyle & Spike interactions weren't as much a part of Angel's hallucinations as almost everything else we saw in this ep. Wait and see is always an acceptable attitude. And perhaps the Sex Pistols records (and a record player) are sort of like the mythical etchings gals are invited in to see? The difficulty with a story with *any* fantasy/hallucinated elements in it is that there's a tendency to think it's ALL fantasy. Don't think so, in this case: in Angel's dreams, Angel is always at the center. All other events not involving Angel are actual, even if (as with Lindsey's chat) they contain lies. And some of the Angel events--the challenging of Eve's earrings, Angel presiding over the debate between Wes and Gunn, Angel seeing and tearing off parasite Jr., his rescue from parasite Sr. by Spike--are also actual, not dreams or hallucinations.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 26, 2004 15:09:28 GMT -5
I don't necessarily disagree with you here. I'm just wondering if all the small things that don't add up are actual clues or just ME McGuffins. I'm reserving judgement thru the next couple of eps to see how much of what we were shown in Soul Purpose was "real." Spike's supposed use of the word "hooch" was another of those little things (plus listening to records - this guy owns the clothes he stands up in, and that's all). Spike is hip enough to know no one uses words like hooch anymore. Hooch seems more like an Angel thing to me. I wonder if the Lindsay/Doyle & Spike interactions weren't as much a part of Angel's hallucinations as almost everything else we saw in this ep. It makes my head hurt to consider the possibility that the Lindsey/Doyle- Spike interactions are part of Angel's hallucinations; it seems to me that there needs to be some externally verifiable action in last weeks episode for me to value it as highly as I do. NOT that anyone in that situation is being truthful; Linoyle (Doysey?) is playing Spike, but Spike is playing along. The Hootch and Sex Pistols comment does rather sound like the old gleefully carnal Spike and not the quiet reflective and downed out Spike that's been around since "Showtime"- as if somebody's file needs updated. Julia, the sum of that is that I'm waiting to see
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Post by Nickim on Jan 26, 2004 19:40:25 GMT -5
It makes my head hurt to consider the possibility that the Lindsey/Doyle- Spike interactions are part of Angel's hallucinations; it seems to me that there needs to be some externally verifiable action in last weeks episode for me to value it as highly as I do. NOT that anyone in that situation is being truthful; Linoyle (Doysey?) is playing Spike, but Spike is playing along. The Hootch and Sex Pistols comment does rather sound like the old gleefully carnal Spike and not the quiet reflective and downed out Spike that's been around since "Showtime"- as if somebody's file needs updated. Julia, the sum of that is that I'm waiting to see Angel hallucinating the entire thing would certainly explain Spike's use of the double wrist-stakes. Nicki, right there with you on the head hurting
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Post by Gianmarco on Jan 26, 2004 23:50:30 GMT -5
Hello Not sure if this is the place, but I forgot to tape last week's episode (#10)!!! Oh no! Is there anyone in the Hamilton/Toronto, Ontario area who would be willing to loan/sell me their copy? Please contact me at define@sympatico.ca
Many thanks Gianmarco
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 27, 2004 5:19:03 GMT -5
Hello Not sure if this is the place, but I forgot to tape last week's episode (#10)!!! Oh no! Is there anyone in the Hamilton/Toronto, Ontario area who would be willing to loan/sell me their copy? Please contact me at define@sympatico.ca Many thanks Gianmarco Hello, Gianmarco. Are you unable to download the episode from Buffy.nu? In any case, we have several Canadian S'cubies; I'll relay your request to them and hope one or another of them can help or advise you.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 27, 2004 5:19:29 GMT -5
For whatever it's worth, the Slayage.com link is finally up.
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Post by Laura on Jan 27, 2004 11:54:33 GMT -5
Quoting my review, with her own bolded comments, Sue said:<snip> the teenaged Buffy that she no longer is, but Angel still imagines her as, This is an excellent point. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Of course, I knew Angel was jealous of Spike and Buffy's "relationship" but I hadn't thought about Angel still viewing her as a teenager. Also, I did ask myself why Angel wasn't surprised by Spike and Buffy being involved sexually. Her little, "he's in my heart" speech made no mention of their past sex-capades. She must have told him a lot more after Spike died, in that 19 days before he popped out of the amulet. We do know she told him about Spike's soul and his sacrifice in "Chosen" so she must have also told him some of the backstory to explain why Spike got the soul. This may be one of the issues also clouding Angel's treatment of Spike. <snip> Nan, excellent review, as usual.
I'm not going to comment on the whole thing -- I've just been thinking about this aspect of the episode -- i.e., the assumption that everyone has been making that Angel still sees Buffy as a teen-ager. While that's certainly one explanation, the ad hominem posts that it encourages made me ponder the scene a little more deeply -- to consider what else may be meant by it.
I agree that one aspect of Angel's hallucination of Spike in bed with Buffy is to show how Angel fears that Spike is taking his place, and is one part of his larger hallucinations involving Spike -- that Spike will take Angel's place at W&H, will take "Angel's" shanshu, will take "Angel's" love (Buffy).
But why have "Buffy" "speak" in this hallucination? ME could have conveyed Angel's fear about Spike being with Buffy simply by showing Spike in bed with a petite blonde. Why did she "speak"? And more importantly, why were her comments from The Prom? I think there's a real reason for it, and it's not that Angel still sees Buffy as a teen-ager.
Not disputing that, once a relationship is over, we tend to "freeze" our ex-'s at the point in time when we last saw them. (So in my case, my ex- is bearded and blond -- even though for all I know, he's shaved and dyed his hair in the years since I last saw him.) I would "buy" the explanation that Angel has Buffy "frozen" as a teen-ager if we knew that he hadn't seen her again -- if the last time he really had any time to be with her was at "the Prom."
But we know that wasn't the case. Leaving aside IWRY, Angel has seen/spoken to Buffy on more than one occasion since he went to L.A., all of which would certainly cause him to believe that Buffy had (1) grown up; and (2) moved past him. First, he was back in Sunnydale when Buffy was with Riley. He saw that Buffy cared for Riley; he even told him that “I don’t like him.” I never interpreted that remark – and Buffy certainly didn’t appear to interpret it – as meaning that Angel was trying to influence her. I think he meant it as an acknowledgment that Buffy did care for Riley, and that she had gotten “over” Angel.
Second, Angel went back to Sunnydale when Joyce died. Angel certainly has seen enough death in his life/unlife that he knows how it affects people. He knows that, among other things, it forces a surviving “child” to assume adult responsibility – to “grow up.” And for all Buffy asked him to stay “forever,” they both knew that she didn’t mean it – and that Angel would not stay forever.
Third, Angel knew that, as a consequence of her mother’s death, Buffy had to raise Dawn by herself. Not a “teen-age” occupation.
Fourth, Angel knew that Buffy had died. Whatever the conversation was that they had after she came back, however frustrating it may have been for the two of them (and we’ll never know), Angel again had to know that the experience of dying and crawling out of her grave affected her deeply – regardless of whether she told him how she really felt about being back.
Finally, and most significantly, Angel saw her when she defeated Caleb. Yes, they got all “school-yard” after that about Spike. But Angel saw Buffy as the one in charge there – he didn’t interfere with her fight with Caleb, and he accepted her decision that he was not going to be fighting at her side against TFE.
All of that, to me, means that Angel does not think of Buffy as a teen-ager anymore. In fact, if he did still think of her as a teen-ager, then there were certainly other quotes that ME could have used in this scene – any of the times that they were making with the “smoochies” in Halloween or What’s My Line I/II, or even Surprise. So the question becomes – why The Prom?
I think we have to put the quoted material back into the context from which it came.: [/color] Buffy: I’m not being that way. Every time I say the word ’prom’, you get grouchy. Angel: I’m sorry. I’m just worried that you’re getting too ... invested in this whole thing. Buffy: What whole thing? Isn’t this the stuff that I’m supposed to get invested in? Going to a formal, graduating, growing up. Angel: I know. Buffy: Then what? What’s with the dire? Angel: It’s uh, it’s nothing. Buffy No, you have ’something’ face. Angel: I think we need to talk, but not now and not here. Buffy: No. No, if you have something to say, then say it. (silence ) Angel, drop the cryptic. You’re scaring me. Angel: I’ve been thinking ... about our future. And the more I do, the more I feel like us, you and me being together, is unfair to you. Buffy: Is this about what the Mayor said? Because he was just trying to shake us up. Angel: He was right. Buffy: No. No, he wasn’t. He’s the bad guy. Angel: You deserve more. You deserve something outside of demons and darkness. You should be with someone who can take you into the light. Someone who can make love to you. Buffy: I don’t care about that. Angel: You will. And children. Buffy: Children? Can you say jumping the gun? I kill my goldfish. Angel: Today. But you have no idea how fast it goes, Buffy. Before you know it, you’ll want it all, a normal life. Buffy: I’ll never have a normal life. Angel: Right, you’ll always be a Slayer. But that’s all the more reason why you should have a real relationship instead of this, this freak show.Now, old arguments aside about whether or not Angel had any right to “make” decisions for Buffy – he ended the relationship because he realized that it was unfair to her. And, as Buffy herself said to Willow in the same episode, “But he’s right. I mean, I think, maybe in the long run, that he’s right.”
So – at the end of The Prom, Angel thinks that Buffy understands his point of view – she may not like it, but she understands – he wants more for her. He wants her to have a love “who can take [her] into the light.” Someone who can give her children, which is something that he – a vampire – can never do.
And what does he find? That she’s with Spike. Leaving aside all the Angel/Spike issues – Buffy is with yet another vampire. What does that tell Angel about his “sacrifice” in “giving Buffy up” so she can have a “normal” life? That it meant nothing to her.
My conclusion is this – it was extremely important to ME to have “Buffy” speak these particular words, from this particular episode because they demonstrate Angel’s fear of being betrayed by Buffy.
And after all, doesn’t that fit it with all the rest of his hallucinations? Gunn turns on him, Wes stakes him, Fred guts him, and Spike – well, Spike is Spike. (Lorne and Harmony don’t hurt him, but they don’t help him, either.) In order to show Angel’s worst fears, we have to see him being “betrayed” by everyone he thinks “loves” him – so that includes Buffy.
So that’s what I think. Angel isn’t projecting that Buffy is still a teen-ager. He’s projecting his fear that she would betray him, too.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 27, 2004 12:34:58 GMT -5
Nan, excellent review, as usual.
I'm not going to comment on the whole thing -- I've just been thinking about this aspect of the episode -- i.e., the assumption that everyone has been making that Angel still sees Buffy as a teen-ager. While that's certainly one explanation, the ad hominem posts that it encourages made me ponder the scene a little more deeply -- to consider what else may be meant by it.
I agree that one aspect of Angel's hallucination of Spike in bed with Buffy is to show how Angel fears that Spike is taking his place, and is one part of his larger hallucinations involving Spike -- that Spike will take Angel's place at W&H, will take "Angel's" shanshu, will take "Angel's" love (Buffy).
But why have "Buffy" "speak" in this hallucination? ME could have conveyed Angel's fear about Spike being with Buffy simply by showing Spike in bed with a petite blonde. Why did she "speak"? And more importantly, why were her comments from The Prom? I think there's a real reason for it, and it's not that Angel still sees Buffy as a teen-ager.
Not disputing that, once a relationship is over, we tend to "freeze" our ex-'s at the point in time when we last saw them. (So in my case, my ex- is bearded and blond -- even though for all I know, he's shaved and dyed his hair in the years since I last saw him.) I would "buy" the explanation that Angel has Buffy "frozen" as a teen-ager if we knew that he hadn't seen her again -- if the last time he really had any time to be with her was at "the Prom."
But we know that wasn't the case. Leaving aside IWRY, Angel has seen/spoken to Buffy on more than one occasion since he went to L.A., all of which would certainly cause him to believe that Buffy had (1) grown up; and (2) moved past him. First, he was back in Sunnydale when Buffy was with Riley. He saw that Buffy cared for Riley; he even told him that “I don’t like him.” I never interpreted that remark – and Buffy certainly didn’t appear to interpret it – as meaning that Angel was trying to influence her. I think he meant it as an acknowledgment that Buffy did care for Riley, and that she had gotten “over” Angel.
Second, Angel went back to Sunnydale when Joyce died. Angel certainly has seen enough death in his life/unlife that he knows how it affects people. He knows that, among other things, it forces a surviving “child” to assume adult responsibility – to “grow up.” And for all Buffy asked him to stay “forever,” they both knew that she didn’t mean it – and that Angel would not stay forever.
Third, Angel knew that, as a consequence of her mother’s death, Buffy had to raise Dawn by herself. Not a “teen-age” occupation.
Fourth, Angel knew that Buffy had died. Whatever the conversation was that they had after she came back, however frustrating it may have been for the two of them (and we’ll never know), Angel again had to know that the experience of dying and crawling out of her grave affected her deeply – regardless of whether she told him how she really felt about being back.
Finally, and most significantly, Angel saw her when she defeated Caleb. Yes, they got all “school-yard” after that about Spike. But Angel saw Buffy as the one in charge there – he didn’t interfere with her fight with Caleb, and he accepted her decision that he was not going to be fighting at her side against TFE.
All of that, to me, means that Angel does not think of Buffy as a teen-ager anymore. In fact, if he did still think of her as a teen-ager, then there were certainly other quotes that ME could have used in this scene – any of the times that they were making with the “smoochies” in Halloween or What’s My Line I/II, or even Surprise. So the question becomes – why The Prom?
I think we have to put the quoted material back into the context from which it came.: [/color] Buffy: I’m not being that way. Every time I say the word ’prom’, you get grouchy. Angel: I’m sorry. I’m just worried that you’re getting too ... invested in this whole thing. Buffy: What whole thing? Isn’t this the stuff that I’m supposed to get invested in? Going to a formal, graduating, growing up. Angel: I know. Buffy: Then what? What’s with the dire? Angel: It’s uh, it’s nothing. Buffy No, you have ’something’ face. Angel: I think we need to talk, but not now and not here. Buffy: No. No, if you have something to say, then say it. (silence ) Angel, drop the cryptic. You’re scaring me. Angel: I’ve been thinking ... about our future. And the more I do, the more I feel like us, you and me being together, is unfair to you. Buffy: Is this about what the Mayor said? Because he was just trying to shake us up. Angel: He was right. Buffy: No. No, he wasn’t. He’s the bad guy. Angel: You deserve more. You deserve something outside of demons and darkness. You should be with someone who can take you into the light. Someone who can make love to you. Buffy: I don’t care about that. Angel: You will. And children. Buffy: Children? Can you say jumping the gun? I kill my goldfish. Angel: Today. But you have no idea how fast it goes, Buffy. Before you know it, you’ll want it all, a normal life. Buffy: I’ll never have a normal life. Angel: Right, you’ll always be a Slayer. But that’s all the more reason why you should have a real relationship instead of this, this freak show.Now, old arguments aside about whether or not Angel had any right to “make” decisions for Buffy – he ended the relationship because he realized that it was unfair to her. And, as Buffy herself said to Willow in the same episode, “But he’s right. I mean, I think, maybe in the long run, that he’s right.”
So – at the end of The Prom, Angel thinks that Buffy understands his point of view – she may not like it, but she understands – he wants more for her. He wants her to have a love “who can take [her] into the light.” Someone who can give her children, which is something that he – a vampire – can never do.
And what does he find? That she’s with Spike. Leaving aside all the Angel/Spike issues – Buffy is with yet another vampire. What does that tell Angel about his “sacrifice” in “giving Buffy up” so she can have a “normal” life? That it meant nothing to her.
My conclusion is this – it was extremely important to ME to have “Buffy” speak these particular words, from this particular episode because they demonstrate Angel’s fear of being betrayed by Buffy.
And after all, doesn’t that fit it with all the rest of his hallucinations? Gunn turns on him, Wes stakes him, Fred guts him, and Spike – well, Spike is Spike. (Lorne and Harmony don’t hurt him, but they don’t help him, either.) In order to show Angel’s worst fears, we have to see him being “betrayed” by everyone he thinks “loves” him – so that includes Buffy.
So that’s what I think. Angel isn’t projecting that Buffy is still a teen-ager. He’s projecting his fear that she would betray him, too.
[/quote] I think "betrayal" is taking it a bit far, unless you are speaking strictly of Angel's perception of the situation. Because Buffy's right: she'll never have a normal life. And Spike, as self-serving as his original assertion of the point to Riley may be, is right: she needs a little monster in her man. What has betrayed Angel in his relationship with Buffy is his own idealism, I think: he idealizes both Buffy and "normal" life, and because of that idealization he denies himself what he wants without being able to make Buffy choose what he thinks she "really" wants. AND- by his actions in "The Prom" he sets in motion the events which end up with Buffy choosing to be with Spike, or at least his hallucinations indicate to me that he believes that is the case. I think it's essential to remember that Angel really has no idea of the vast bulk of what happened between Spike and Buffy, even as early as Becoming 2. Any thing he thinks about the nature of that relationship is going to be filtered through his guilt, and his arrogance. Julia, how do you betray someone who abandons you?
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