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Post by Laura on Jan 27, 2004 12:42:15 GMT -5
I think "betrayal" is taking it a bit far, unless you are speaking strictly of Angel's perception of the situation. Because Buffy's right: she'll never have a normal life. And Spike, as self-serving as his original assertion of the point to Riley may be, is right: she needs a little monster in her man. What has betrayed Angel in his relationship with Buffy is his own idealism, I think: he idealizes both Buffy and "normal" life, and because of that idealization he denies himself what he wants without being able to make Buffy choose what he thinks she "really" wants. AND- by his actions in "The Prom" he sets in motion the events which end up with Buffy choosing to be with Spike, or at least his hallucinations indicate to me that he believes that is the case. I think it's essential to remember that Angel really has no idea of the vast bulk of what happened between Spike and Buffy, even as early as Becoming 2. Any thing he thinks about the nature of that relationship is going to be filtered through his guilt, and his arrogance. Julia, how do you betray someone who abandons you? No, no, I was speaking entirely of Angel's perception of the situation -- and of course, since this is Angel's hallucination of the situation, it's going to be even more distorted.
I'm NOT saying that I believe that Buffy betrayed Angel by her relationship with Spike. It's just that the explanation I outlined "fits" with the rest of Angel's hallucinations that everyone he loves has turned against him.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 27, 2004 13:19:30 GMT -5
No, no, I was speaking entirely of Angel's perception of the situation -- and of course, since this is Angel's hallucination of the situation, it's going to be even more distorted.
I'm NOT saying that I believe that Buffy betrayed Angel by her relationship with Spike. It's just that the explanation I outlined "fits" with the rest of Angel's hallucinations that everyone he loves has turned against him. OK, just wanted to make sure that was what you meant. And I do think it's important that Angel hallucinates Spike and Buffy going at it in his bed; "You've made your bed now lie in it" is, after all, a very Irish admonition. Julia, thinking also of "and may you lie down in a field of clover, and take your rest when the long day's over" and wondering what ballad that's from.
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Post by deborah on Jan 27, 2004 16:49:56 GMT -5
Blood and Smokes - A Lack Thereof[/b]
I know this as already been touched on but I've been thinking a lot about the lack of blood in Spike's fridge. I tried to post some comments about this yesterday but Moloch ate them; unbeknownst to me, the part I was trying to post to had closed whilst I was typing.
Is the presence of alchohol and the obvious lack of any (vamp) food (blood) in his fridge evidence of Spike's malaise? Are we meant to conclude that Spike is too depressed and adrift to care about taking care of himself?
Has anyone else notice that cigarrettes have been conspicuous by their absence since Spike recorporealized? I recall JM saying that in these times, smoking in film is associated with badness. I wonder if Spike has given it up, as further evidence of his white-hat status. Or maybe, since Spike is a white-hat and poor JM has been trying to quit for over three years now, Joss thought a recorporealized Champion didn't need to be seen smoking anymore.
deborah
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 27, 2004 18:11:22 GMT -5
Blood and Smokes - A Lack Thereof [/b] I know this as already been touched on but I've been thinking a lot about the lack of blood in Spike's fridge. I tried to post some comments about this yesterday but Moloch ate them; unbeknownst to me, the part I was trying to post to had closed whilst I was typing. Is the presence of alchohol and the obvious lack of any (vamp) food (blood) in his fridge evidence of Spike's malaise? Are we meant to conclude that Spike is too depressed and adrift to care about taking care of himself? Has anyone else notice that cigarrettes have been conspicuous by their absence since Spike recorporealized? I recall JM saying that in these times, smoking in film is associated with badness. I wonder if Spike has given it up, as further evidence of his white-hat status. Or maybe, since Spike is a white-hat and poor JM has been trying to quit for over three years now, Joss thought a recorporealized Champion didn't need to be seen smoking anymore. deborah [/quote] I'll have to rererewatch SP to check on that. Oh darn. I did realize today what a gesture Spike makes when talking to Wes and Gunn is; he's biting his cuticles. So some use was made of an otherwise surreal and disturbing set of bus rides. Julia, don't ask, just don't ask.
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Post by Cal on Jan 27, 2004 19:29:02 GMT -5
Blood and Smokes - A Lack Thereof [/b] I know this as already been touched on but I've been thinking a lot about the lack of blood in Spike's fridge. I tried to post some comments about this yesterday but Moloch ate them; unbeknownst to me, the part I was trying to post to had closed whilst I was typing. Is the presence of alchohol and the obvious lack of any (vamp) food (blood) in his fridge evidence of Spike's malaise? Are we meant to conclude that Spike is too depressed and adrift to care about taking care of himself? Has anyone else notice that cigarrettes have been conspicuous by their absence since Spike recorporealized? I recall JM saying that in these times, smoking in film is associated with badness. I wonder if Spike has given it up, as further evidence of his white-hat status. Or maybe, since Spike is a white-hat and poor JM has been trying to quit for over three years now, Joss thought a recorporealized Champion didn't need to be seen smoking anymore. deborah [/quote] Deborah, I had noticed that Spike had not smoked since he had been recorporealized. I had wondered why that was. Cal
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Post by Guest on Jan 27, 2004 21:03:22 GMT -5
I have no problem with Spike waltzing in and out of W&H at will, either; if he didn't spend a good bit of his haunting period figuring out how to get around the security system, I don't know what he was doing Well, we know he wasn't diddlin' his willie!!
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Post by Sammie on Jan 28, 2004 0:30:45 GMT -5
I'm so impressed with the deep insights from everyone. Here are a couple minor details that maybe haven't been mentioned yet?
Wesley and Gunn's conversation when they first walk into Angel's office seems to take a dig at Bush's war. Wesley talks about a "preemptive strike" against an "evil warlock" who has ties to other clans.
Laura's bringing up the original Buffy dialog ("I kill my goldfish") is interesting because it references children. Like the writers are connecting Angel losing his will to be a hero when he lost Connor for good (dead goldfish).
I loved that Nan caught the Sans Shoes in Angel's barefoot dream. Other shoe references that pop up seem to be cute winks from the writers. Reminder that Spike in S7 of BtVS woke from a dream crying out "I'm drowning in footwear!"
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Post by makd on Jan 28, 2004 1:02:37 GMT -5
Blood and Smokes - A Lack Thereof [/b] I know this as already been touched on but I've been thinking a lot about the lack of blood in Spike's fridge. I tried to post some comments about this yesterday but Moloch ate them; unbeknownst to me, the part I was trying to post to had closed whilst I was typing. Is the presence of alchohol and the obvious lack of any (vamp) food (blood) in his fridge evidence of Spike's malaise? Are we meant to conclude that Spike is too depressed and adrift to care about taking care of himself? Has anyone else notice that cigarrettes have been conspicuous by their absence since Spike recorporealized? I recall JM saying that in these times, smoking in film is associated with badness. I wonder if Spike has given it up, as further evidence of his white-hat status. Or maybe, since Spike is a white-hat and poor JM has been trying to quit for over three years now, Joss thought a recorporealized Champion didn't need to be seen smoking anymore. deborah [/quote] I mentioned the lack of blood in the fridge in my review, because, well I noticed it, and because not eating properly is one of the signs of depression, and Spike IS depressed. As to the smoking I would agree with everything you said. Asking someone who's wearing a patch to smoke is like asking an alcoholic to drink. not mixy.
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Post by makd on Jan 28, 2004 1:04:09 GMT -5
I'll have to rererewatch SP to check on that. Oh darn. I did realize today what a gesture Spike makes when talking to Wes and Gunn is; he's biting his cuticles. So some use was made of an otherwise surreal and disturbing set of bus rides. Julia, don't ask, just don't ask. His cuticles?! His cuticles?! It's not enough he chews his nails, he eats his cuticles, too? Damned vampire! Next thing, he'll be drinking blood! ;D
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Post by makd on Jan 28, 2004 1:07:47 GMT -5
I'm so impressed with the deep insights from everyone. Here are a couple minor details that maybe haven't been mentioned yet? Wesley and Gunn's conversation when they first walk into Angel's office seems to take a dig at Bush's war. Wesley talks about a "preemptive strike" against an "evil warlock" who has ties to other clans. Laura's bringing up the original Buffy dialog ("I kill my goldfish") is interesting because it references children. Like the writers are connecting Angel losing his will to be a hero when he lost Connor for good (dead goldfish). I loved that Nan caught the Sans Shoes in Angel's barefoot dream. Other shoe references that pop up seem to be cute winks from the writers. Reminder that Spike in S7 of BtVS woke from a dream crying out "I'm drowning in footwear!" Sammie Welcome to the S 3 site! browse the site, check out the fanfic, read some of the essays, Spikecentricity, our Guest Reviews, and our picture of the week page. When you're done, if you're not too tired, come join our message boards, and share your insights with us. Channeling and paraphrasing Mae West: Come on Wednesday; that's Angel Day, and the fun starts early and runs early into Thursday.
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Post by Karen on Jan 28, 2004 7:40:45 GMT -5
Nan, another great review! Your title - Soul Purpose - Layers of LIes, Layers of truth reminded me of a statement you made last year concerning doing Angel reviews. You wondered if you could find enough to talk about because BtVS was so layered. Well, I'm hear to tell you that you have succeeded, and that I am so glad you have found those layers and complexity in Angel. Your discussion and everyone else's has been adding so much to my enjoyment of Angel this season.
You know, with Buffy, everything seemed so black and white - like it does in childhood, I suppose. Kill the vampire, save the innocents. It's when they all started growing up that the grey started taking over. Not so easy to distinguish the good from the bad when you get older, because you see so much of the gray.
I found myself agreeing with most everything you wrote in your review. Even your questions and doubts are important. The only thing we know for sure of what's going on with Lindsay is that he's teamed up with Eve and he's hiding from the SP. What his ultimate goal in "fixing the race" is, is anyone's guess. Even his visions - maybe he really is having them. It could be what prompted him to come to L.A. Or maybe he is faking them, but then that would mean that he also has to be working with the vampires, at least telling them where victims will be at a certain time. If you think of it that way, it's hard to imagine all the planning involved.
One thing - you wrote that Angel fears (rightly) that his team is working together to subvert his authority. Although I agree that Angel fears this, I don't feel that this is true - not yet anyway. I think the FG have been taking away more and more of Angel's control, but not consciously subverting his authority. I think they feel that Angel is slipping, and that they are helping him. They don't see that their "help" is adding to Angel's feelings of disconnect and that he is expendable. His fears are justified, but the FG isn't intentionally subverting him - IMO. But that may be what Lindsay/Eve is trying to lead them to do.
Anyway, great review and great discussion. I wish I'd have had more time time to join in this week.
Welcome to all the N'ubies and kudos to Nan for bringing them into our community!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 28, 2004 10:37:58 GMT -5
I'm so impressed with the deep insights from everyone. Here are a couple minor details that maybe haven't been mentioned yet? Wesley and Gunn's conversation when they first walk into Angel's office seems to take a dig at Bush's war. Wesley talks about a "preemptive strike" against an "evil warlock" who has ties to other clans. Laura's bringing up the original Buffy dialog ("I kill my goldfish") is interesting because it references children. Like the writers are connecting Angel losing his will to be a hero when he lost Connor for good (dead goldfish). I loved that Nan caught the Sans Shoes in Angel's barefoot dream. Other shoe references that pop up seem to be cute winks from the writers. Reminder that Spike in S7 of BtVS woke from a dream crying out "I'm drowning in footwear!" Hi, Sammie. Glad you could join us. Your ideas are right on the money, as far as I'm concerned. I agree: much of Angel's current depression and doubt is tied to the whole Connor situation--the choice he made, the secret he keeps, and the mindwipe he performed on those closest to him which now distances them from him because he's afraid of slipping (he nearly did with Wesley, awhile back, re the "Father will kill the son" prophecy). Don't think Angel's fix from last season is going to hold much longer. And that WILL be a blow-up of major proportions!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 28, 2004 10:45:07 GMT -5
Nan, another great review! Your title - Soul Purpose - Layers of LIes, Layers of truth reminded me of a statement you made last year concerning doing Angel reviews. You wondered if you could find enough to talk about because BtVS was so layered. Well, I'm hear to tell you that you have succeeded, and that I am so glad you have found those layers and complexity in Angel. Your discussion and everyone else's has been adding so much to my enjoyment of Angel this season. You know, with Buffy, everything seemed so black and white - like it does in childhood, I suppose. Kill the vampire, save the innocents. It's when they all started growing up that the grey started taking over. Not so easy to distinguish the good from the bad when you get older, because you see so much of the gray. I found myself agreeing with most everything you wrote in your review. Even your questions and doubts are important. The only thing we know for sure of what's going on with Lindsay is that he's teamed up with Eve and he's hiding from the SP. What his ultimate goal in "fixing the race" is, is anyone's guess. Even his visions - maybe he really is having them. It could be what prompted him to come to L.A. Or maybe he is faking them, but then that would mean that he also has to be working with the vampires, at least telling them where victims will be at a certain time. If you think of it that way, it's hard to imagine all the planning involved. One thing - you wrote that Angel fears (rightly) that his team is working together to subvert his authority. Although I agree that Angel fears this, I don't feel that this is true - not yet anyway. I think the FG have been taking away more and more of Angel's control, but not consciously subverting his authority. I think they feel that Angel is slipping, and that they are helping him. They don't see that their "help" is adding to Angel's feelings of disconnect and that he is expendable. His fears are justified, but the FG isn't intentionally subverting him - IMO. But that may be what Lindsay/Eve is trying to lead them to do. Anyway, great review and great discussion. I wish I'd have had more time time to join in this week. Welcome to all the N'ubies and kudos to Nan for bringing them into our community! We're 100% together on this, Karen. I agree that they're not subverting or circumventing Angel's authority consciously or deliberately. But the discussion between Harmony and Wes about strict procedures, in which Harmony wants to dot all the proper i's and cross all the t's, and Wes calmly overrules her, shows that it *is* happening, even with the best of intentions. Angel as boss is not necessarily the best situation...as Wes well knows, having had to step into the lead with Angel Investigations when a near-despairing Angel, having fired them all, dragged himself back to work...for them. So you're right about their not setting him aside deliberately. And Lineage showed Wes' high degree of faith in, and support of, Angel personally. So nobody's an intentional judas here. But it's shaping more and more to keep Angel out of the loop to actually get things done, and his dropping more and more out of the loop on his own because of his diminishing faith that anything W&H is doing under his leadership is actually worthwhile.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 28, 2004 10:51:40 GMT -5
I mentioned the lack of blood in the fridge in my review, because, well I noticed it, and because not eating properly is one of the signs of depression, and Spike IS depressed. As to the smoking I would agree with everything you said. Asking someone who's wearing a patch to smoke is like asking an alcoholic to drink. not mixy. I did rewatch SP last night (oh, poor me) and there was no cigarette in the Peppermint Stick, and no ashtray in sight on Spike's table, or any other. If memory serves, it's now illegal to smoke in any public facility in California, anyway. More significantly, there is no ashtray on Spike's kitchen table, nor on the coffee table in front of the sofa in his new apartment. Maybe after the Hellmouth the idea of getting that close to flame is no longer a thrill? Julia, or maybe it's the ultimate symbol of not-evil?
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Post by ldelrossi on Jan 28, 2004 11:17:48 GMT -5
Nan - as always a great review. You always give me more to think about and the episode already did, so I am boggled. Laura - I really, really like what you said.
These are things I found in a dream dictionary that seemed interesting in regard to Angel's dreams:
no shoes - lack of confidence in self;not sure of identity
Angel is very concerned about how he looks. He dressed well in all of the flashbacks and he is certainly dapper at W&H.
Wearing someone else's clothes - taking on feelings from that person.
When Angel was pushing the mail cart, he had on clothes similar to Cinco. Cinco felt that he had failed as a hero and that it wasn't worth trying to care about fighting evil
blood - to dream you are bleeding signifies suffering from exhaustion or emotionally drained. It may also reveal concern over relations with friends.
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