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Post by ldelrossi on Jan 28, 2004 11:37:26 GMT -5
Nan- I was just reading comments on mkd's review - which may I say was amazing and like your review, gave me more to think about and tomorrow is Wed and I'll have more to add! I like your idea of the unraveling of the mindwipe. I have thought since Angel slipped about Wesley knowing that prophecies are bogus, that Wesley would begin researching. He is a man driven by finding answers. I agree that this will probably put a huge wedge between Angel and the FG. It's sort of like Wesley not telling them about the prophecy and just taking Connor. I have been hoping for some impetus to bring Angel and Spike together - Angel's separation from the FG may precipitate that.
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Post by Karen on Jan 28, 2004 11:41:55 GMT -5
It makes my head hurt to consider the possibility that the Lindsey/Doyle- Spike interactions are part of Angel's hallucinations; it seems to me that there needs to be some externally verifiable action in last weeks episode for me to value it as highly as I do. NOT that anyone in that situation is being truthful; Linoyle (Doysey?) is playing Spike, but Spike is playing along. The Hootch and Sex Pistols comment does rather sound like the old gleefully carnal Spike and not the quiet reflective and downed out Spike that's been around since "Showtime"- as if somebody's file needs updated. Julia, the sum of that is that I'm waiting to see I tend to think that Spike didn't say that about the hootch and the girls and Sex Pistols, but that just like the informer *knew* that it was a vampire without actually seeing his face vamped, he was being fed information by the Lindsay-look alike named Doyle - who would assume that the FG would recognize a description of the old Spike rather than the new reflective Spike. Although, the platinum hair might have been all he would have had to use, there might be other vamps with platinum hair and the use of Hootch and Sex Pistols was used to cinch the deception. I wonder if new viewers just call the Lindsay we assume is Lindsay - Doyle. If you are in the dark about it, it would seem that what he calls himself is the "truth". Spike has met Doyle, but did he ever know his name?
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Post by Wendy on Jan 28, 2004 13:02:15 GMT -5
Nan, I thoroughly enjoyed your Nanalysis for this episode. I look forward to your review each week, as they are so insightful, and make each episode that much more enjoyable to watch.
Karen wrote:
Good question as to what the "in the dark" viewers are thinking about " Doyle" ? As to whether or or not Spike ever heard Doyle's name...In the episode "In the Dark" Spike does see Doyle and knows that he works for Angel but he never hears his name.
CORDELIA: When you’re through giving the place the full Johnny-Depp-over, I hope you have the cash to pay for all of this.
SPIKE: Cordelia. Love the hair.
CORDELIA: Wish I could say the same to you.
DOYLE: That’s close enough, dimwit.
SPIKE: What is it with you good guys running in packs? Who is this one then?
DOYLE: More than meets the eye, blondie.
SPIKE: Ooo, the Mick’s got spine! Maybe I’ll snap it in two.
Spike sees Doyle later in the episode when he and Cordy show up to rescue Angel, but once again, his name is never mentioned.
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Post by deborah on Jan 28, 2004 16:46:15 GMT -5
I mentioned the lack of blood in the fridge in my review, because, well I noticed it, and because not eating properly is one of the signs of depression, and Spike IS depressed. As to the smoking I would agree with everything you said. Asking someone who's wearing a patch to smoke is like asking an alcoholic to drink. not mixy. I've heard JM say that when Spike has to smoke he smokes those clove cigarettes. He said that they not only taste nasty but that they give off far less smoke than regular cigarettes and so make for poor visuals. I seem to remember him saying that if you look at Spike smoking in S2 you can see a lot more smoke than in later seasons. deborah, who didn't get to work today until 3friggin'o'clock because the car wouldn't start and she just had to charge a whole lot of money she doesn't have for repairs and is all grumpy and behind now at work.
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Post by deborah on Jan 28, 2004 16:56:47 GMT -5
I did rewatch SP last night (oh, poor me) and there was no cigarette in the Peppermint Stick, and no ashtray in sight on Spike's table, or any other. If memory serves, it's now illegal to smoke in any public facility in California, anyway. More significantly, there is no ashtray on Spike's kitchen table, nor on the coffee table in front of the sofa in his new apartment. Maybe after the Hellmouth the idea of getting that close to flame is no longer a thrill? Julia, or maybe it's the ultimate symbol of not-evil? Ditto for me, Julia. After eg said she thought he was holding a cigaratte in his hand at the Peppermint Lounge I watched it again last night, too. There was no cigaretter. He does reach into his pocket and pull something out, but it's some folded up $ bills that he slaps on the table. No cigarette. Wonder if Spike is a smoke free vampire, now. deborah
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 28, 2004 17:03:10 GMT -5
I've heard JM say that when Spike has to smoke he smokes those clove cigarettes. He said that they not only taste nasty but that they give off far less smoke than regular cigarettes and so make for poor visuals. I seem to remember him saying that if you look at Spike smoking in S2 you can see a lot more smoke than in later seasons. deborah, who didn't get to work today until 3friggin'o'clock because the car wouldn't start and she just had to charge a whole lot of money she doesn't have for repairs and is all grumpy and behind now at work. Mmmm..Kreteks... I've been smoke free for a very long time but I still miss smoking Kreteks, as disgusting as it sounds. My sympathy or empathy for your car problems. We are currently possessed by a 1996 Voyager with 225,000 miles on it, and never know exactly when we might have the excitement of sudden lack of transportation. And my sympathy to James for having a character who smokes when he's trying to quit; maybe the new show has freed him from the time when a pile of cigarette butts betrays just how far from the truth was "Out. For. A. Walk. Bitch." Julia, tobacco is an evil weed...
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Post by makd on Jan 28, 2004 19:04:28 GMT -5
I've heard JM say that when Spike has to smoke he smokes those clove cigarettes. He said that they not only taste nasty but that they give off far less smoke than regular cigarettes and so make for poor visuals. I seem to remember him saying that if you look at Spike smoking in S2 you can see a lot more smoke than in later seasons. deborah, who didn't get to work today until 3friggin'o'clock because the car wouldn't start and she just had to charge a whole lot of money she doesn't have for repairs and is all grumpy and behind now at work. Ever smoked one of those suckers? Let me tell you, it's nowhere near the same as the real thing, but, it does do the trick, provided you have had a taste of other kinds of tobacco. (Not that I would know anything about that! ) As an asthmatic (diagnosed 15 years ago), I don't smoke. However, in my youth, I did enjoy an aftercig (after dinner, after lunch, after....). Stopped because I'd started dating MOPS and he hated the taste of smoke and asked me to stop. So, I stopped. Every now and again I'd jones for a smoke, so I would buy a pack of herbals. That way, I could sneak and MOPS wouldn't know. It's a "not good", but healthwise, it's superior to smoking the real thing. They smell stronger than nicotine! Different, but stronger. In fact, they smell like weed!!! I usually ended up with MOPS asking if my students had been smoking pot near me.... Sooo not cool, I was about the jonesing...... (sorry. fractured Pennsylvania Dutch there. I meant: I was sooo not cool about the jonesing. ) Smoking is a helluvan addiction. Plus, the person who smokes smells; their clothes smell; their surroundings smell.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 30, 2004 11:39:49 GMT -5
Hi, all! New here and probably not able to be a frequent poster, but wanted to throw an idea into the mix. Not sure if anyone else has thought this same thing. Many of us have been talking about how Spike is being played by “Lindsay as Doyle” (Linoyle or Dindsay or however you wanna call him). How suspicious Spike should be, or how he is buying into it because it feeds his ego, etc. But we could also look at the events from a different angle. Why SHOULD Spike necessarily be suspicious? Lindsay is just imitating how Angel actually began to work for TPTB. Because WE know Lindsay is lying (or at least partially lying), we are concerned that Spike is “falling” for it. But at the start of AtS, we didn’t particularly question the real Doyle or working for TPTB etc. and, IIRC, neither did Angel. He might have wondered about what he could/should do, issues with worthiness, is this the right path, etc. – but no real “hey, maybe this Doyle guy is just lying to me”. To some extent, why should Spike have to, or be expected to, question this apparent mission any more than Angel did when presented with it for real at the start of AtS? Spike does have experience with Dru, who has real visions, and this might help him spot that Lindsay is faking – but then again, if you are not inside the person’s head, can you really ever know if someone else’s vision is fake or real? If Spike were dealing with the real Doyle, I think he would still be reacting the same way. Not sure if he wants to be at the beck and call of some mysterious group of Powers, rather be helping people/doing things in his own way, etc. And I bet we’d all be saying things like “stop being so distrustful” or “Spike needs to let down his guard and let Doyle in” and so on. Granted, we are also all much more suspicious of TPTB themselves than we were at the start of AtS – and I think we should be.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 30, 2004 17:12:04 GMT -5
Hi, all! New here and probably not able to be a frequent poster, but wanted to throw an idea into the mix. Not sure if anyone else has thought this same thing. Many of us have been talking about how Spike is being played by “Lindsay as Doyle” (Linoyle or Dindsay or however you wanna call him). How suspicious Spike should be, or how he is buying into it because it feeds his ego, etc. But we could also look at the events from a different angle. Why SHOULD Spike necessarily be suspicious? Lindsay is just imitating how Angel actually began to work for TPTB. Because WE know Lindsay is lying (or at least partially lying), we are concerned that Spike is “falling” for it. But at the start of AtS, we didn’t particularly question the real Doyle or working for TPTB etc. and, IIRC, neither did Angel. He might have wondered about what he could/should do, issues with worthiness, is this the right path, etc. – but no real “hey, maybe this Doyle guy is just lying to me”. To some extent, why should Spike have to, or be expected to, question this apparent mission any more than Angel did when presented with it for real at the start of AtS? Spike does have experience with Dru, who has real visions, and this might help him spot that Lindsay is faking – but then again, if you are not inside the person’s head, can you really ever know if someone else’s vision is fake or real? If Spike were dealing with the real Doyle, I think he would still be reacting the same way. Not sure if he wants to be at the beck and call of some mysterious group of Powers, rather be helping people/doing things in his own way, etc. And I bet we’d all be saying things like “stop being so distrustful” or “Spike needs to let down his guard and let Doyle in” and so on. Granted, we are also all much more suspicious of TPTB themselves than we were at the start of AtS – and I think we should be. ::) Lola, I completely agree with everything you've said here. Lindsey/"Doyle" may turn out to be an utter fake and his purposes utterly contrary to Spike and/or Angel's wellbeing. However, we've not yet seen anything (other than his association with duplicitous Eve--itself troubling) to conclusively determine that. I expect in the next few episodes, we'll get a clearer picture of Lindesy and the actual nature of his plan and then be able to judge his motives, and Spike's proper response and relation to this apparent guide, much better than we can now.
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Post by Laura on Feb 2, 2004 17:28:13 GMT -5
So instead of watching the Stupor Bowl ;D last night, I did a mini-marathon and re-watched the last couple of episodes.
In the honky-tonk scene, when Lorne tells Angel to sing, he says "Sing out Louise" -- which I didn't get at first, but then last night I realized he's quoting Gypsy -- it's Mama Rose's opening line, said when daughter Louise is still a child, and it's repeated when Rose sends the no-longer-teenaged-but-still-relatively-young Louise onto a burlesque stage for the first time -- as a stripper.
So -- Lorne is urging Angel to "strip"? (Or is Lorne about to become a stage mother of the worst kind? ;D)
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Post by Nickim on Feb 3, 2004 10:00:45 GMT -5
So instead of watching the Stupor Bowl ;D last night, I did a mini-marathon and re-watched the last couple of episodes.
In the honky-tonk scene, when Lorne tells Angel to sing, he says "Sing out Louise" -- which I didn't get at first, but then last night I realized he's quoting Gypsy -- it's Mama Rose's opening line, said when daughter Louise is still a child, and it's repeated when Rose sends the no-longer-teenaged-but-still-relatively-young Louise onto a burlesque stage for the first time -- as a stripper.
So -- Lorne is urging Angel to "strip"? (Or is Lorne about to become a stage mother of the worst kind? ;D) Reference to Connor? In Angel's fevered state, anything is possible.
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Post by Karen on Apr 15, 2004 17:20:05 GMT -5
So instead of watching the Stupor Bowl ;D last night, I did a mini-marathon and re-watched the last couple of episodes.
In the honky-tonk scene, when Lorne tells Angel to sing, he says "Sing out Louise" -- which I didn't get at first, but then last night I realized he's quoting Gypsy -- it's Mama Rose's opening line, said when daughter Louise is still a child, and it's repeated when Rose sends the no-longer-teenaged-but-still-relatively-young Louise onto a burlesque stage for the first time -- as a stripper.
So -- Lorne is urging Angel to "strip"? (Or is Lorne about to become a stage mother of the worst kind? ;D) Maybe Lorne was urging Angel to sing - or to take the stage - take control. Get some self-confidence.
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