|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 29, 2004 12:28:23 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Cal on Jan 30, 2004 8:40:18 GMT -5
Excellent review, Nan! As always, you manage to put into words everything that I was thinking. ITA with your analysis of this episode.
Spike not being able to touch, to feel, to fight, would have been more than I could stand. I found that so painful to watch! It was such a relief when they were able to save his hands. I hoped that they would, but with JW you never know, do you?
I, too, am concerned about Gunn. What the SP have planned for him I don't know, but it can't be good can it?
Andrew was great. I had grown quite fond of him by the end of BtVS, although I did find him annoying at times. In "Damage", he was a delight. His reaction when he saw Spike was wonderful. And yes, Spike did look "beautiful".
The final scene between Spike and Angel was something that we have been waiting for all season. At last, they finally opened up to each other.
Thanks for a great review, Nan. You have given me lots to think about.
Reading the reviews and everyone's comments about the episodes each week, make Angel even more interesting to watch. Thank you.
Cal
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Jan 30, 2004 8:48:50 GMT -5
Excellent review, Nan! As always, you manage to put into words everything that I was thinking. ITA with your analysis of this episode. Spike not being able to touch, to feel, to fight, would have been more than I could stand. I found that so painful to watch! It was such a relief when they were able to save his hands. I hoped that they would, but with JW you never know, do you? I, too, am concerned about Gunn. What the SP have planned for him I don't know, but it can't be good can it? Andrew was great. I had grown quite fond of him by the end of BtVS, although I did find him annoying at times. In "Damage", he was a delight. His reaction when he saw Spike was wonderful. And yes, Spike did look "beautiful". The final scene between Spike and Angel was something that we have been waiting for all season. At last, they finally opened up to each other. Thanks for a great review, Nan. You have given me lots to think about. Reading the reviews and everyone's comments about the episodes each week, make Angel even more interesting to watch. Thank you. Cal ITA with what Cal has said, Nan. I love how you started the review "It begins with a mistake". Ha! Fate intervening again, or something or someone else? I hate how they put Spike through so much, but he did look beautiful as Cal has said. You did a great job sussing out this very deep episode. Is your head ready to explode yet? ;D
|
|
|
Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 30, 2004 8:55:17 GMT -5
"Finally, it’s not about evidence: it’s about intuition and imaginative leaps."
Mmmmm, not quite. It *is* about the evidence. Angel gathered facts, evidence, about the situation via the omniscient Wolfram and Hart, whereas Dana relied on memory. Which we all know is so very unreliable. But it is also about intuition and imaginative leaps- Angel getting from whatever the girl was saying to her being a Slayer was a leap, especially if they didnt know about the multiple Chosen. Heart AND Head. Also hands. Need the whole lot working together.
It also occured to me, without supporting evidence I'll grant, that the Council of Watchers could have gone Orthodox and Reform. Giles and the Scooby gang are collecting Slayers, but if Andrew is his top man... I'm not trying to put him down, because he really got the job done so maybe yeah he is the top guy. Or maybe he's just the *only* guy. Therefore any Council being put together from Watcher Academy graduates new and ancient would be a seperate organisation. Both would have authority, tradition, power, and likely support of some Slayers (if a few survived with their Watchers, or were found by old school types before the SG got them). But they would have very different command styles.
I admit there isnt evidence for this, but whilst the androids could plausibly be old school CoW I really dont see Buffy going for the bot solution, or trying to take Angel's free will when she was so supportive about keeping Spike free. Giles might go for the old school style, but only the Giles Buffy closed the door on, maybe not earlier Giles or the Giles right at the end backing up Buffy. But someone probably had the records (I say probably because theres a GURPS spell that does the same thing with blood and a personal object from the one to be copied, using variations on scrying to get all the info it needs. But GURPS is not Buffyverse).
Calling Wesley 'Pryce' is simply echoing his own useage from the time he was strongest and most independent- he answered the phone that way when he was running his own team. Way more recent than high school but still slightly outdated knowledge- although for all we know slightly better informed than Wesley is himself these days. Does he even remember going out on his own? If he don't others shouldnt, so then mistake only. But viewers know, so Andrew calling him that could just emphasise the Giles mistake.
Dreaming of past slayers is only new canon on account of the film isnt canon.
Wesley: This isn’t a courtroom, Gunn. Things work with a bit more immediacy in the real world.
That line struck me as a bit peculiar coming from Wes. I mean Wes saying about evidence and Gunn saying about immediacy (with slight vocabulary tweakage) would suit fine for previous seasons. But now Wes is the jump in guy? The book guy who went to sources even outside this world is now the less evidence, more immediacy guy? What up with that?
Spike: Oh, I just thought I’d see what it was like to bounce off the pavement. Pretty much what I expected.
Whilst you referenced the fall from the tower, Spike definitely didnt. He's bounced off pavements before. He doesnt say 'again'. Flip comment, no personal history in it at all. But about work he is willing to share, telling Angel his theory about the 'demon', whereas what we see of Angel has him all drama queen walking off. We know he tells Spike the Slayer theory, but we dont see it. Emphasise the disconnect.
Angel:vamPYRES (using Andrew’s bizarre pronunciation)
Funny, but huh? Angel using someone elses words to the point he mispronounces what he is? Naming himself as others name him, then correcting himself. Struck me as odd when reading it. But I do know sometimes a funny is just a funny.
Lorne: Vernon’s top drawer. He does all Tom Arnold’s readings.
Is that an actor? Proceeding on the assumption it is someone famous, Lorne in the entertainment division is getting him increasingly disconnected from reality. Judging efficacy by proximity to fame? Reflects badly on why Lorne would want to work with Angel in the first place- known name and all. Lorne was music metaphor homespun (in a demony way) wisdom guy, now he's about fame and stories? Disconnect muchly.
Andrew calling Angel Uhura- thats the communications officer. Also the girl. Which one more relevant? And did Andrew just insult Angel to his face in a really geeky way? I think so.
Spike: I’d give you the finger but apparently I won’t have the motor skills until the drugs wear off.
So Spike would have been about defensive action but cant right now, hence the opening for the first real communication with Angel.
I’m not saying you’re right because, uh, I’m physically incapable of saying that
um, no comments to add to that, except it makes me laugh Every Single Time I see it.
Is this the first time they make 'I' statements instead of 'You' accusations?
|
|
|
Post by raenstorm on Jan 30, 2004 8:58:24 GMT -5
Great review, Nan! I can't believe I missed the connection between Andrew's goldfish and Angel's goldfish! I knew he was eating goldfish but didn't even put the two together. Thanks for pointing that out This is unrelated to the review but it made me think about it. So, Andrew may have promised not to tell Buffy Spike is alive but one assumes he'll have to report on the mission to Giles, right? That probably means he'll have to mention Spike's involvement. If he doesn't, Dana is sure to say something once she awakens. Buffy's finding out is inevitable. While I'm ok with not seeing Buffy on the show, I do hope we hear her reaction.
|
|
makd on the run again
Guest
|
Post by makd on the run again on Jan 30, 2004 10:49:29 GMT -5
Nan
Just finished your always-excellent review! (and thanks for the call-out!). I am running late for appointments, so no time right now to comment more. Only wanted to congratulate you on another terrific review; be back later.
|
|
Tesla
Junior S'cubie
the ice is getting thinner
Posts: 11
|
Post by Tesla on Jan 30, 2004 11:31:27 GMT -5
Insightful review, Nan, and incredibly quick. I have to agree with you on the unease about Gunn. Instant lawyer is one thing, but playing golf? That's true evil. There was also a nice bit of foreshadowing in Angel's fever dream---when Gunn's eyes were the eyes of the "big cat." I'd been thinking about the aging vampires bit, and I'm prepared to spin it as, they're no longer within the ambit of the Hellmouth's energies. I actually squealed at the whole Andrew/Spike reunion. JM and Tom Lenk were terrific---nice bit with JM not-quite-rolling his eyes. And the last scene with Angel and Spike was nicely un-melodramatic. I have already seen two Andrew/Spike slash fanfics posted btw.
|
|
|
Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jan 30, 2004 11:48:03 GMT -5
Well... wow. I am in awe.
I especially liked the goldfish crackers/soul connection - another thing I missed in my viewing, and the Head/Hands/Heart connection to Primeval. I, too, was reminded by Andrew's new look of pre-vamp William.
I must go away and think - you've given me plenty of ideas.
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 30, 2004 13:36:06 GMT -5
Great job, Nan, thanks for being so good at putting things in an organized fashion. Your mention of Spike repeatedly asking Buffy to stake him (In Sleeper and Never Leave Me both; In Sleeper he even begs for the stake, saying "I need that" ) led me to wonder when it was he felt the right to stay alive and fighting. Maybe it's just because of the current discussion in the main thread, but I think that is one of the important changes in Lies My Parents Taught Me, and the connections between that episode and this one become even more significant. Obviously I'll have to rerewatch " Damage" with these new questions in mind. Julia, recommending beccalizabeth go check www.imdb.com for information about Tom Arnold, as I'm still all about why he needs a psychic so often
|
|
|
Post by ariza on Jan 30, 2004 14:55:04 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
first time poster, long time reader.
I'm sure that this has been pointed out somewhere, but does anyone find it interesting that they're using a fish as areference to Angel's soul? It is surmised that fish don't have any feelings (and no i'm not just referencing Nirvana, it's a fact) could the fish be telling more than we're realizing. Or is it just a simple image of Angel feeling nothing? Any thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Jan 30, 2004 15:08:02 GMT -5
Hi everyone, first time poster, long time reader. I'm sure that this has been pointed out somewhere, but does anyone find it interesting that they're using a fish as areference to Angel's soul? It is surmised that fish don't have any feelings (and no i'm not just referencing Nirvana, it's a fact) could the fish be telling more than we're realizing. Or is it just a simple image of Angel feeling nothing? Any thoughts? Ariza, Given the bizarre senses of humor of many ME writer's I've always assumed they were doing a wordplay on soul/sole. But...maybe not. I don't know much about fish, but I do know goldfish are different than sole. Still. BTW--In addition to this thread do you know where to find additional discussion on the main thread?
|
|
Pet
S'cubie
Mmm..Thinkin' of you, Pet!!
Posts: 123
|
Post by Pet on Jan 30, 2004 15:49:55 GMT -5
I lost my post and hadn't signed in so... here goes again.
Nan, a good review. I was waiting for it. I know it was difficult to organize. There was so much to sort through, and I found it a bit confusing at times, but you got your points across.
I was pleased to see that you presented us with a maturing Spike. You took us from a self-centered, generalized, guilt-ridden Spike (Sleeper), which is necessary for genuine remorse, to one who could separate his own evil actions, accept responsiblity for them, and begin to have compassion for the victims of evil in general, that which he didn't cause. Very healthy. He was able to have a discussion (theological?) with Angel no less, listen to his own soul's cry and explore his thoughts and feelings about his demon's behavior. Good catch with the "she's now 'the lass' to him" comment illustrating his crossover to a personalized connection with the victim. By Spike's own admission (LMPTM), he is not one for self-reflection but this conversation was the result of self-reflection. Bravo to the writers for moving this character's arc along.
Considering the renewed bruhaha in fandom over Spike's redemption, and ME's waffling moral stance on the subject in general, I reviewed the comment Spike made about deserving the pain and now agree with you that he was referring to payment for his past evils, and not payment for running off "half-cocked". However, I didn't want to believe that's what he meant. That comment was so out of context with what Spike was discussing with Angel. It took me right back to "kick the Spike" and him deserving torture and maiming...forever. Not liking that. That's what Angel believes is necessary and Spike told him it was making him old. Even Spike said in that BtVS Troll epi, "what's it take?"
More, even though Spike said "us" when he learned of Andrew's doublecross, his comment was consistent with his distrust of W&H and the FG's role in it. I believe the "us" he was referring to was him and Angel, as a developing? "team". As you so aptly put it, "This seems, finally, like a beginning."
|
|
Pet
S'cubie
Mmm..Thinkin' of you, Pet!!
Posts: 123
|
Post by Pet on Jan 30, 2004 15:55:38 GMT -5
Your mention of Spike repeatedly asking Buffy to stake him (In Sleeper and Never Leave Me both; In Sleeper he even begs for the stake, saying "I need that" ) led me to wonder when it was he felt the right to stay alive and fighting. Maybe it's just because of the current discussion in the main thread, but I think that is one of the important changes in Lies My Parents Taught Me, and the connections between that episode and this one become even more significant. Hey Julia, Spike felt the right to stay alive and fighting in the same epi, Sleeper. Buffy revealed to him that something was playing "them". She included Spike. He then asked Buffy to help him (poor Baby). And she said she would, in spite of all the people he killed. How's that for boosting your self-esteem. Not only that, she took him home and put him in her bedroom and finally told him she believed in him. *sigh*
|
|
|
Post by mc on Jan 30, 2004 16:24:36 GMT -5
dont know if its relevant at all but the fish was a symbol for the early christian church, no idea why though
|
|
|
Post by KMInfinity on Jan 30, 2004 16:30:45 GMT -5
KMInfinity said:
Nan's reply to KM before I realized that I'd destroyed her post:
KM, an interesting post! And I agree the smileys can be annoying. They particularly haunt the letter D combined with ) or ". You can disable the smileys by previewing your post (one of the options) before posting it to see if any smileys have crept in and inserting a space between the offending characters that have combined to produce the smiley; or you can hit the second of the two checkboxes under any post being either composed or modified. This disables the smileys...but doesn't carry over if/when your original post is quoted. Then, the smiley will reappear. So I usually do both: check for unwanted smileys and insert space to eliminate them and then hit the checkbox too, to disable the smilies in general.
Hope this gives you more comfort in your posting.
KM, I've just TWICE inadvertently modified your post. The first time, I put it back the way it was and was certain the second time, I was merely quoting it. Instead, I've eliminated it by modification. My deepest apologies. Only on this board can I modify (rather than quote) others' posts, and I seem to do so by mistake MUCH more frequently than I would wish.
If you remember what you said, please repost it (it was a long post!) and I'll try even harder to not mess it up the way I have this time.
Nan (shooting self in foot...TWICE!)
Quoting the apt signature line of Rogue1 on the following page: Oh, Bloody Hell!
|
|