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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 30, 2004 21:03:12 GMT -5
Nan, I really enjoyed your review - and you were right, we saw it pretty similarly - and yet managed to write about it differently. In Buffy's words, 'very cool.' A couple things in your review gave me 'wow' moments..' You reminded us that in the 'joining' of the Scoobies in "Primeval', Buffy was the hands, and here Spike has his hands cut off. I haven't read the other comments on your review yet so forgive me if this is a retread, but it made me think that perhaps we can also say this is symbolic of the fact that Spike was also cut off from Buffy. Well, that's a stretch probably, especially as Spike's hands have been re-attached, but SMG isn't (as we've all discussed) appearing on Angel. Still, to me it's a fun fanwank.. Nan, EXCELLENT catch - Andrew's hair and clothes did make him look like William. And of course last season we saw him in leather coat, swaggering down the streets of Sunnydale, trying to be the Big Bad. Now, he has grown and is clearly on the 'side' of good - and is modeling after the 'good' side of Spike. (Not that he probably knows what William was like.) I really enjoyed your review, of an episode I am rating highly. Thanks, Patti. A very enjoyable episode but a little hard to quantify or describe. Your review covered the pertinent ground, though, even if it was something like a third the size of mine. You tackled it head on and wrestled it (as it were) into submission.
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makd still running on RL
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Post by makd still running on RL on Jan 30, 2004 21:19:06 GMT -5
dont know if its relevant at all but the fish was a symbol for the early christian church, no idea why though In the Greek of the time, the word ICHTHUS, which means "fish," was also an acronym for "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior". Christians, who worshiped in secrecy, used the ichthus (fish) as a code to identify themselves to other Christians. One person would draw the top half of the fish; the other person, if Christian, would draw the bottom half of a fish, and thus they would identify themselves as Christians. I think ME is using it as a pun on the word "sole/soul", as has already been suggested. Also, I think there may be some analogy to Angel's having slept with the fishes in the inbetween of Seasons 3 and 4 AtS.
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Post by Sammie on Jan 31, 2004 2:24:27 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone for the warm welcome last week! I'm really enjoying reading Nan's reviews and everyone's input...adds so much dimension to the show and affirms a lot of ideas bouncing around in my noggin. (I wish I could join the discussion sooner after the show, but my schedule doesn't cooperate.)
I'm finding the hands and fish themes fascinating. I hadn't thought about the Buffy-Hand connection--thanks, Nan. I was thinking that it must be a theme because, really it was such a dramatic punishment. Now Spike and Lindsey have something else in common. Personally, I found the mutilation jarring. I can't accept that anyone, no matter how monstrous, could "deserve" brutality like that and didn't like that comment going unchallenged. But it is interesting as far as the themes go.
Another aspect I thought was interesting in this show is that it highlighted Spike's loneliness as a vulnerability. Andrew shows unreserved joy at seeing Spike alive and it's the first time AtS has seen someone treat Spike like a truly Good Guy. Since Spike didn't push him away, I read Spike as actually gratified even though he might be reluctant to show it. So there is a hint of Spike With Friendship there. Later, Spike's fight with Dana ends badly when he is alone. Angel swoops in to save the day, but even he uses the backup of his friends and employees to help him subdue Dana. Finally Andrew is able to take Dana by having a team of slayers behind him. So as far as dealing with the aggregation of wrongs that takes the form of Dana (possibly stretching that idea to mean Redemption) fighting alone doesn't do the trick.
Anyway, I hope I'm making sense!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 31, 2004 2:49:02 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone for the warm welcome last week! I'm really enjoying reading Nan's reviews and everyone's input...adds so much dimension to the show and affirms a lot of ideas bouncing around in my noggin. (I wish I could join the discussion sooner after the show, but my schedule doesn't cooperate.) I'm finding the hands and fish themes fascinating. I hadn't thought about the Buffy-Hand connection--thanks, Nan. I was thinking that it must be a theme because, really it was such a dramatic punishment. Now Spike and Lindsey have something else in common. Personally, I found the mutilation jarring. I can't accept that anyone, no matter how monstrous, could "deserve" brutality like that and didn't like that comment going unchallenged. But it is interesting as far as the themes go. Another aspect I thought was interesting in this show is that it highlighted Spike's loneliness as a vulnerability. Andrew shows unreserved joy at seeing Spike alive and it's the first time AtS has seen someone treat Spike like a truly Good Guy. Since Spike didn't push him away, I read Spike as actually gratified even though he might be reluctant to show it. So there is a hint of Spike With Friendship there. Later, Spike's fight with Dana ends badly when he is alone. Angel swoops in to save the day, but even he uses the backup of his friends and employees to help him subdue Dana. Finally Andrew is able to take Dana by having a team of slayers behind him. So as far as dealing with the aggregation of wrongs that takes the form of Dana (possibly stretching that idea to mean Redemption) fighting alone doesn't do the trick. Anyway, I hope I'm making sense! Hi, Sammie. For whatever it may be worth, I think Spike refers to "only what I deserve" in the specific context of the pain he's in--not the mutilation, although he doesn't specify. I take it to mean he feels he deserves to suffer pain considering all the other families he's killed, even though he didn't kill Dana's. And he appears to be drugged and all around miserable in that hospital bed, which probably means he's in low spirits, which might cause him to equate the physical pain with the emotional pain and feel he deserves both. If you recall, Spike agreed with Pavayne that he deserved to be sucked into Hell; however, when he found a way to fight, he added, "But not today!" and proceeded to punch Pavayne out very satisfactorily. So although, in moments of pain and helplessness, he may believe he deserves to feel and be that way, the moment his spirits revive, he shrugs that feeling off. Not completely, but "for now." Like you, I'm not comfortable with Spike's occasional declarations of unworthiness. I accept that's how he feels at the moment, but *don't* find it justified. I look to his subsequent actions as a truer measure of his bouts of discouragement, guilt, regret, and un-Spikelike low spirits .
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Post by Sammie on Jan 31, 2004 5:09:00 GMT -5
Hi, Sammie. For whatever it may be worth, I think Spike refers to "only what I deserve" in the specific context of the pain he's in--not the mutilation, although he doesn't specify. I take it to mean he feels he deserves to suffer pain considering all the other families he's killed, even though he didn't kill Dana's. And he appears to be drugged and all around miserable in that hospital bed, which probably means he's in low spirits, which might cause him to equate the physical pain with the emotional pain and feel he deserves both.... Point well taken, that perspective makes sense to me. Just two random comments to add that I forgot to include earlier: 1) I'm glad you invoked Drusilla in your review, Nan. She seems to be a big stop sign in Angel's redemptive road. 2) this is the second time Spike's been de-dustered by someone who has a grievance against him. I wonder whether it is a portent of his shedding it...is it time he did? Hm that also reminds me that along with his smoking habit, the lighter has not made an appearance either.
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Post by Karen on Jan 31, 2004 9:50:08 GMT -5
Yup, Spike's motivation to get his soul back was all about Buffy, and he says as much in "Beneath You" "Sleeper" and "Get it Done". But as of " Damage" (with hints that this is happening as early as "End of Days" ) he seems to be moving on to what having a soul means for Spike. Julia, suddenly wondering if part of Spike's hesitancy to see Buffy is because he needs to work on that question. A friend of mine insists that Spike didn't run off to see Buffy and is staying in LA because of the Shanshu. I think I might agree with him, not because I think Spike wants to "take" the Shanshu from Angel or anything, but because he figures that if he is the one who is destined to get it, why not stick around and find out. And then he'll be on even terms with Buffy and really be able to give her what she deserves. I think he believes he'll have more to offer her then. I also think he might be staying around because of the Shanshu prophecy because he believes it's the right thing to do - if he is the one.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 31, 2004 10:59:23 GMT -5
A friend of mine insists that Spike didn't run off to see Buffy and is staying in LA because of the Shanshu. I think I might agree with him, not because I think Spike wants to "take" the Shanshu from Angel or anything, but because he figures that if he is the one who is destined to get it, why not stick around and find out. And then he'll be on even terms with Buffy and really be able to give her what she deserves. I think he believes he'll have more to offer her then. I also think he might be staying around because of the Shanshu prophecy because he believes it's the right thing to do - if he is the one. That's right along the lines my thoughts are developing too; Spike "wants to see how it ends" in LA before he leaves. I made the somewhat fool-hardy choice to watch "Chosen" last night after I rererewatched " Damage" and when Spike said "Terrified" and later "Let's go be heroes" a very small light went on in a dim corner of my brain: this is the moment when Spike realizes, not that Buffy doesn't love him, but that she might be interested in exploring a relationship with him and then dropping him, again. No wonder he's conflicted about going to see her, or letting her know he's alive. She may just end up "bouncing me around like a rubber ball." Again. Julia, on the other hand, I have to tell you I did not sleep well after THAT combo plate.
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Tesla
Junior S'cubie
the ice is getting thinner
Posts: 11
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Post by Tesla on Jan 31, 2004 11:37:45 GMT -5
Sometimes I think Spike *can* do thrall, because I certainly spend an inordinate time thinking about him.
That aside, I tend to agree with the analysis that Spike wants to "stick around" to see what happens. When we first met Spike, he said Angelus had been his "Yoda, man!" And so, Angel is still is Yoda, whether either of them likes it or admits it. Angelus taught him how to be a vampire, and Spike looks to Angel to show him how to be (or how not to be) a souled vampire. Spike may not even be aware of his own motivations, but twenty years with someone as your de facto sire would leave lasting psychological ties.
"You're going to want to hear about this," Lindsay said last week, and there Spike is, pulling the Jellyfish of Doom off Angel. And there Angel is, at the end of "Damage," with Spike all in white. These two could have easily let the other get taken out. It's not completely about who gets Buffy, or who gets to Shanshu---it's if these two can forgive each other, as well.
(and on the internet a thousand slashfics bloom)
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Post by Cal on Jan 31, 2004 13:52:17 GMT -5
Sometimes I think Spike *can* do thrall, because I certainly spend an inordinate time thinking about him. That aside, I tend to agree with the analysis that Spike wants to "stick around" to see what happens. When we first met Spike, he said Angelus had been his "Yoda, man!" And so, Angel is still is Yoda, whether either of them likes it or admits it. Angelus taught him how to be a vampire, and Spike looks to Angel to show him how to be (or how not to be) a souled vampire. Spike may not even be aware of his own motivations, but twenty years with someone as your de facto sire would leave lasting psychological ties. "You're going to want to hear about this," Lindsay said last week, and there Spike is, pulling the Jellyfish of Doom off Angel. And there Angel is, at the end of "Damage," with Spike all in white. These two could have easily let the other get taken out. It's not completely about who gets Buffy, or who gets to Shanshu---it's if these two can forgive each other, as well. Welcome to the board Tesla! ITA with what you said above, and also what Julia said in her last post. There is still so much to explore with Spike and Angel. I, for one, am looking forward to what comes next. Cal
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 31, 2004 14:44:33 GMT -5
Chalk up another great Nanalysis!
I loved Angel and Spike's discussion at the end of this ep. As you so rightly point out, Spike's victims aren't any less dead, regardless of his motivation(s). Interesting Spike should say Andrew double crossed "us." He could be referring to himself and Angel as a team, or he could he mean us in the sense of two formerly evil vampires who've been around for a while. Imagine being outwitted by a "ponce" like Andrew!
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Post by analiese on Jan 31, 2004 15:03:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the compliment... I'm not quite sure what Spike's intentions were. In the actual BtVS season, it's implied he wants to remove the chip so he can hurt Buffy. That's where the line " deserves" originally came from - I belive that even JM didn't know about the soul restoration because JW wanted the scene to be ambiguous. Since there isn't definitive canon about why Spike went to Africa, I'm choosing to believe he wanted to be able to " do the right thing/be good" so that Buffy would respect him and she would then have the kind of man she " deserves" - one who is all things "good and honorable." Well, Spike already could hurt Buffy, even with the chip, so I never thought he was going to Africa so that he could come back and hurt her. I thought that he was, in great conflict, surrendering to her insistence that a soul would make all the difference. Alas, it didn't turn out to be true.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 31, 2004 15:24:48 GMT -5
Well, Spike already could hurt Buffy, even with the chip, so I never thought he was going to Africa so that he could come back and hurt her. I thought that he was, in great conflict, surrendering to her insistence that a soul would make all the difference. Alas, it didn't turn out to be true. My emphasis. I don't think we actually know what difference, or rather differences, getting a soul has made to Spike, but we DO know that, by the end of BtVS S7, it has made one enormous difference: Buffy trusts him. What " Damage" shows is that the soul may also mean that Spike doesn't trust himself. And that it's all still a process rather than a product. Julia, clinging to the creative possibilities of uncertainty
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 31, 2004 17:25:00 GMT -5
I don't think we actually know what difference, or rather differences, getting a soul has made to Spike, but we DO know that, by the end of BtVS S7, it has made one enormous difference: Buffy trusts him. What " Damage" shows is that the soul may also mean that Spike doesn't trust himself. And that it's all still a process rather than a product. Julia, clinging to the creative possibilities of uncertainty LOL! Right there with ya, Scooter! Winning back his soul has made a difference for Spike, and how he relates to others. I can't see any reason to make such a big deal about it if it's without meaning. He/we just haven't sussed out what it is yet. Plus, it was a terrific F.U.! to the Scoobies. Spike just can't resist a challenge - you think the Soulless Evil Thing [SET] can't change? Wanna bet?
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Post by Sue on Jan 31, 2004 18:05:43 GMT -5
Plus, it was a terrific F.U.! to the Scoobies. Spike just can't resist a challenge - you think the Soulless Evil Thing [SET] can't change? Wanna bet? LadyDi, It may have worked out that way, but totally not buying that that was any part of Spike's original motivation. Take the risk of turning into a "broody ponce" being tortured for all the "fun" things he did as a demon--just so he can flick off the Scoobies? Not buying it.
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Post by WinterDreamer on Jan 31, 2004 18:05:56 GMT -5
First of all, I've just got to take my hat off to Nan for another thought-provoking review. I don't know how you do it every week, but I hope you keep on doing it! Great review, Nan! This is unrelated to the review but it made me think about it. So, Andrew may have promised not to tell Buffy Spike is alive but one assumes he'll have to report on the mission to Giles, right? That probably means he'll have to mention Spike's involvement. If he doesn't, Dana is sure to say something once she awakens. Buffy's finding out is inevitable. While I'm ok with not seeing Buffy on the show, I do hope we hear her reaction. I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately, and I've come to the conclusion that Buffy may NOT find out about Spike's renewed unlife anytime soon. Here's my resoning: Andrew will probably respect Spike's wishes, and not go out of his way to tell Buffy. He appears to report to Giles, not directly to Buffy, and doesn't seem to be staying in Rome, where Buffy is living. Therefore, even though he might very well accidently let it slip out, Buffy won't be around to hear it. Neither will Willow, Xander or Dawn be around to hear it, so they won't be able to pass the news along to Buffy. I also thought that Spike's claim that he would call Buffy himself was tranparently insincere. He seems to be terrified of facing her, for whatever reason. (The reasons given so far in the show don't seem to be quite sufficient to keep Spike away from her, IMO. But some other posters have come up with a few reasons that make more sense to me, psychlogically. So even if a little fanwanking is required, I can live with it.) The one who is most likely to hear about Spike from Andrew, either from his report or accidentally, is Giles. He is also the person least likely to tell Buffy what he knows. We know that Giles never really trusted Spike, even at the end of S7. Now he'll hear from Andrew that Spike, back from the dead by unknown means, is operating at least partly in concert with Angel, and by extension, with W&H. Giles is unlikely to have changed his opinion that, where Spike is concerned, Buffy's judgement cannot be trusted. Therefore he may feel that the prudent course of action, and the one calculated to give Buffy the least pain, is to keep his knowledge of Spike from the other Scoobies, at least until he has more of an idea of what's going on. Whether by design or not, it seems to me that the writers have left open the possibility of Buffy not finding out about Spike until (unless) it becomes useful--for example, if SMG reconsiders in the next year and agrees to do a guest appearance. If this has already been discussed on the main thread, sorry--I'm way behind there and I WOULD like to hear what anyone else has to say on this subject!
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