|
|
Post by Matthew on Feb 7, 2004 3:52:08 GMT -5
Julia.. I didn't think that Linds' sword morphed after the big sword-tumescence scene: when it first extended out, I said "holy crap, that's Todd's(Todd being a friend of mine who bought the first carbon-steel and functional sword that had a good edge and a good balance to it, that I had seen in person) Agincourt!!!" Remarkable resemblence.
-Matthew, who owns about four different switchblades of three types, but rarely carries them: he can open a butterfly knife just as fast, and they are a lot less illegal if one were to get busted with it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 7, 2004 5:38:26 GMT -5
ITA. Cordy and Angel as grown-up lovers - could never see it, till now. And, boy oh boy, is she gonna be a harder act to follow than Buffy. No little schoolgirl, no petty jealousies (Faith and Buffy, anyone?). What she and Buffy shared, aside from life on the Hellmouth is that neither sent mixed messages about priorities of mission. Both are all about the mission - but Cordy seemed able to love more generously and openly and fearlessly (course, different experiences, too). Cordy was indeed one beautiful on the inside, beautiful on the outside, funny and smart kick ass and cut with the katana, babe. Loved it 3! Also ---- wish we'd had the scene where Angel told the Team that Cordy had died. Maybe we will see pieces of that in next week's episode (though I doubt it; the ending was good as it was.) I thought this was a terrific episode from The Fury. He is just the best, IMO, at showing the general immaturity and evilness of Angelus and Spike. Good rendition, too, on Spike's evolutionary status. Anyway, Nan - another great review!! Thank you so much for the time and energy you put into each review. It means so much. Thanks, makd. Glad you liked the review. I agree with you about what I've bolded above. However, I don't particularly like Fury for it. My vision of Spike is closer to what we saw last week. Brave, strong, impulsive, gentle to those he cares about, ready to fight anybody/anything beyond those limits with everything he's got. I can take him played for comedy in small doses, like we got here. But Angel's real dignity and Spike's irrepressible vividness can't be neglected, misrepresented, or ignored too long without diminishing the characters beyond recognition. Angel is not a stoical dolt and Spike is not a hyper, childish clown. Or only sometimes.... |
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Feb 7, 2004 8:56:49 GMT -5
I think Lindsey pretty much "went with the flow" as far as his "plan" was concerned. If one thing didn't work, he soon had Plan B in place. Eve: We've got a big problem. Cordelia Chase is alive.
Lindsey: Well, this calls for a change in the course of action.I think he did the same thing when Spike was recorporealized. Changed the game. Now there's no one else playing the game that we know of. I'm going to miss Lindsey.  Spike, in his "in the strip club bar" confrontation with Lindsey, seemed to believe that Lindsey was the one who probably sent him that package . . . i.e., the one who allowed him to recorporealize (it was part of his plan, rather than something that put a monkey wrench in it). I tend to agree with Spike here, because Lindsey and Eve were behind the phony cup thing that was meant to end with Spike killing Angel. We may never get very clear answers to who/what sent Spike to Angel in the first place, or why, or the events that led to his now (I assume) permanent corporealization. (But we've got touchable Spike on the premises now, so I'm not complaining). What's with Spike next week? So not answer that, because I am unspoiled and want to stay that way, but that trailer was very strange! |
|
Tesla
Junior S'cubie
the ice is getting thinner
Posts: 11
|
Post by Tesla on Feb 7, 2004 9:31:50 GMT -5
But Angel's real dignity and Spike's irrepressible vividness can't be neglected, misrepresented, or ignored too long without diminishing the characters beyond recognition. Angel is not a stoical dolt and Spike is not a hyper, childish clown. Or only sometimes.... Nan, I totally agree. I watched the episode again last night, and what stood out for me was the taste test on Cordelia. Angel didn't, unless I missed it, threaten to dust Spike. That kind of threat seems to be off the table, even though Spike's fangs had been at Cordelia's neck. Although the familial sniping was there, it's insults being thrown rather than fists. I keep seeing an echo of how Angel's father related to him, in how he finds himself relating to Spike. When I started watching the flashbacks to Auld Ireland, not only the kind of insults flung at Angel by his father, but Angel's reaction as a human (we all know his reaction as a vampire) paralleled Angel's dominance and Spike's defiance in their vampire family. |
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Feb 7, 2004 9:54:45 GMT -5
Thanks, makd. Glad you liked the review. I agree with you about what I've bolded above. However, I don't particularly like Fury for it. My vision of Spike is closer to what we saw last week. Brave, strong, impulsive, gentle to those he cares about, ready to fight anybody/anything beyond those limits with everything he's got. I can take him played for comedy in small doses, like we got here. But Angel's real dignity and Spike's irrepressible vividness can't be neglected, misrepresented, or ignored too long without diminishing the characters beyond recognition. Angel is not a stoical dolt and Spike is not a hyper, childish clown. Or only sometimes.... ITA. The childishness gets old fast. |
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Feb 7, 2004 9:56:47 GMT -5
Nan, I totally agree. I watched the episode again last night, and what stood out for me was the taste test on Cordelia. Angel didn't, unless I missed it, threaten to dust Spike. That kind of threat seems to be off the table, even though Spike's fangs had been at Cordelia's neck. Although the familial sniping was there, it's insults being thrown rather than fists. I keep seeing an echo of how Angel's father related to him, in how he finds himself relating to Spike. When I started watching the flashbacks to Auld Ireland, not only the kind of insults flung at Angel by his father, but Angel's reaction as a human (we all know his reaction as a vampire) paralleled Angel's dominance and Spike's defiance in their vampire family. Angel didn't trheaten to dust Spike, just "pull some fangs." I liked that threat, no permanent harm done, just a "stop and think next time." |
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Feb 7, 2004 10:27:01 GMT -5
Spike, in his "in the strip club bar" confrontation with Lindsey, seemed to believe that Lindsey was the one who probably sent him that package . . . i.e., the one who allowed him to recorporealize (it was part of his plan, rather than something that put a monkey wrench in it). I tend to agree with Spike here, because Lindsey and Eve were behind the phony cup thing that was meant to end with Spike killing Angel. We may never get very clear answers to who/what sent Spike to Angel in the first place, or why, or the events that led to his now (I assume) permanent corporealization. (But we've got touchable Spike on the premises now, so I'm not complaining). What's with Spike next week? So not answer that, because I am unspoiled and want to stay that way, but that trailer was very strange! I didn't watch the trailer right after Angel aired last week (I was crying about Cordy - i'm such a wuss). But I was intrigued by all the "Spike with brown hair" comments, etc. by the S'cubies, so I watched it last night. Damn, that man looks good with brown hair, too. Trailer was strange. Don't know what to make of it, and ain't gonna speculate. I know DB said he had fun making it. I wondered about the submarine comment when he let it slip out in an interview. I was thinking more "20 Thousand Leagues", not Nazis.  I know Spike believed Lindsey about the recorporealization, but I thought Eve was worried earlier that Fred was going to find out how to make Spike solid. That's why I don't think EveL did it, even though Spike assumed they did. I think TPTB gave Spike his life back, just like they brought back Cordy - to help Angel. Lindsey just jerked the situation around to what he thought would be his advantage. But the more I think of your interpretation, the more I think you are probably right. I think I just wanted TPTB to have had more of a role in bringing Spike back - another champion for their cause. Sounds nobler, for Spike. |
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 7, 2004 10:57:23 GMT -5
Nan, I totally agree. I watched the episode again last night, and what stood out for me was the taste test on Cordelia. Angel didn't, unless I missed it, threaten to dust Spike. That kind of threat seems to be off the table, even though Spike's fangs had been at Cordelia's neck. Although the familial sniping was there, it's insults being thrown rather than fists. I keep seeing an echo of how Angel's father related to him, in how he finds himself relating to Spike. When I started watching the flashbacks to Auld Ireland, not only the kind of insults flung at Angel by his father, but Angel's reaction as a human (we all know his reaction as a vampire) paralleled Angel's dominance and Spike's defiance in their vampire family. I think you're right about this, Tesla. Angelus, and now Angel, has copied and internalized the only wrathful dominance model he has--his father's treatment of him--and in turn imposed it on Spike. I don't think Spike's rebelliousness was likewise inherent in William. Blow in Spike's ear, show him affection and gentleness, and he'll follow you anywhere. I suspect that Spike, like Liam, fell into the appropriate resentful defiant role because Angelus treated him with the same overbearing contempt and disapproval as Liam's father treated him. Their reactions were the same (given the essential differences in personality) because the cause was the same, perpetuated by Angelus. Whereby this generation's abused children often (but not always) become the next generation's abusers. It's the only parental model role they know, or know how to enact. |
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 7, 2004 12:45:06 GMT -5
Julia.. I didn't think that Linds' sword morphed after the big sword-tumescence scene: when it first extended out, I said "holy crap, that's Todd's(Todd being a friend of mine who bought the first carbon-steel and functional sword that had a good edge and a good balance to it, that I had seen in person) Agincourt!!!" Remarkable resemblence. -Matthew, who owns about four different switchblades of three types, but rarely carries them: he can open a butterfly knife just as fast, and they are a lot less illegal if one were to get busted with it. I'll have to watch it again with attention to that detail, but my memory is that the first shape of that sword has a curved blade and a basket hand guard. Julia, except for SUs old practice epee, we have no swords here |
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 7, 2004 12:50:47 GMT -5
ITA. The childishness gets old fast. The childishness is just part of what I object to with Fury; he EXPLICITLY rejects the necessity to conform his theories about characters to the continuity of the show, and is, as far as I can see, pretty much the root of a lot of the needless wrangling about the nature and intent of not only Spike and Angel but also Willow and Buffy in s.6 and 7 BtVS. My calling him a narcissist back there was not just a reflection of Nan's words but a response to his latest Bronze Beta posting and every interview I've read with him. I cannot respect writers on group projects who set themselves above the opinion of the group, as he repeatedly has. That he also stands in open contempt of the audience is the final nail in his coffin (stake in heart, beheaded) Julia, and I REALLY think he needs to be prevented from directing his own stuff. |
|
|
|
Post by Matthew on Feb 7, 2004 15:24:26 GMT -5
Julia.. a line in your next-to-last post made me want to re-read some Jorge Luis Borges stories....
Spasibo!
-Matthew, who is off on a tangent.
|
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 7, 2004 15:42:39 GMT -5
Julia.. a line in your next-to-last post made me want to re-read some Jorge Luis Borges stories.... Spasibo! -Matthew, who is off on a tangent. Does that make me a good influence, or a bad influence? Julia, mysterioso... |
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Feb 7, 2004 16:00:23 GMT -5
I didn't watch the trailer right after Angel aired last week (I was crying about Cordy - i'm such a wuss). But I was intrigued by all the "Spike with brown hair" comments, etc. by the S'cubies, so I watched it last night. Damn, that man looks good with brown hair, too. Trailer was strange. Don't know what to make of it, and ain't gonna speculate. I know DB said he had fun making it. I wondered about the submarine comment when he let it slip out in an interview. I was thinking more "20 Thousand Leagues", not Nazis. I know Spike believed Lindsey about the recorporealization, but I thought Eve was worried earlier that Fred was going to find out how to make Spike solid. That's why I don't think EveL did it, even though Spike assumed they did. I think TPTB gave Spike his life back, just like they brought back Cordy - to help Angel. Lindsey just jerked the situation around to what he thought would be his advantage. But the more I think of your interpretation, the more I think you are probably right. I think I just wanted TPTB to have had more of a role in bringing Spike back - another champion for their cause. Sounds nobler, for Spike. I don't like the idea that Spike is back, or corporeal, because of some evil design by the likes of Lindsey and Eve. Maybe we will find that underneath it all, they were unwitting dupes of a higher power. This fits well with your "it's all a video game" theory - was that you Karen? I'm not sure . . . whoever mentioned that in one of the threads, I liked the observation. |
|
|
|
Post by makd on Feb 7, 2004 19:19:15 GMT -5
Thanks, makd. Glad you liked the review. I agree with you about what I've bolded above. However, I don't particularly like Fury for it. My vision of Spike is closer to what we saw last week. Brave, strong, impulsive, gentle to those he cares about, ready to fight anybody/anything beyond those limits with everything he's got. I can take him played for comedy in small doses, like we got here. But Angel's real dignity and Spike's irrepressible vividness can't be neglected, misrepresented, or ignored too long without diminishing the characters beyond recognition. Angel is not a stoical dolt and Spike is not a hyper, childish clown. Or only sometimes.... ITA. The Fury is not my favorite Spikewriter. (Spikewriter/ writerofSpike) There are others that understand the character's arc so much better. My favorite Spikewriter is Doug Petrie, followed by Rebecca Kirshner and Jane Espenson. I liked Marti Noxon as a Spikewriter, the scripts she wrote BEFORE she became showrunner were fine; it's with the acquisition of showrunner power that, IMO, she went off the deep end with her own agenda. Tracy Forbes, Ultimate Drew, Drew Greenberg, and of course, the Jossboss, are all great Spikewriters - all understand the character's many facets better than The Fury. However, when it come to evil, nasty, immature Spike, nobody does it better than The Fury. And that seems to be what TPTB want this season. Which is a shame, really, since it almost negates Season 7 BtVS. I fanwank; I tell myself that Spike has regressed in his evolution for many of the same reasons as Buffy after Bargaining. That come-back from death ain't easy. |
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 7, 2004 19:52:17 GMT -5
ITA. The Fury is not my favorite Spikewriter. (Spikewriter/ writerofSpike) There are others that understand the character's arc so much better. My favorite Spikewriter is Doug Petrie, followed by Rebecca Kirshner and Jane Espenson. I liked Marti Noxon as a Spikewriter, the scripts she wrote BEFORE she became showrunner were fine; it's with the acquisition of showrunner power that, IMO, she went off the deep end with her own agenda. Tracy Forbes, Ultimate Drew, Drew Greenberg, and of course, the Jossboss, are all great Spikewriters - all understand the character's many facets better than The Fury. However, when it come to evil, nasty, immature Spike, nobody does it better than The Fury. And that seems to be what TPTB want this season. Which is a shame, really, since it almost negates Season 7 BtVS. I fanwank; I tell myself that Spike has regressed in his evolution for many of the same reasons as Buffy after Bargaining. That come-back from death ain't easy. Could be you're right, makd--that we're seeing regression because of the return, Buffy-style. Certainly Spike hasn't had much luck connecting with anybody on a deep level since he manifested. Fred is the closest (except for those few minutes at the end of Damage with Angel, and the accepting camarederie with Andrew in this ep) and that's not nearly enough for him to find his balance in even a minimal network of relationships. He's still adrift and at sea. But I didn't feel the superficiality of his reactions in other episodes as plainly as I did in this Fury-scripted ep. I just hope we're treated to a more balanced portrayal in the eps to come--with Ultimate Drew and the promising others. |
|
