|
Post by Karen on Feb 7, 2004 20:22:57 GMT -5
I don't like the idea that Spike is back, or corporeal, because of some evil design by the likes of Lindsey and Eve. Maybe we will find that underneath it all, they were unwitting dupes of a higher power. This fits well with your "it's all a video game" theory - was that you Karen? I'm not sure . . . whoever mentioned that in one of the threads, I liked the observation. Ooo, you read me! Yeah, that was me, but I'll give the credit to my son who put me onto the idea by his observation that the pink cartoon castle in Angel's dream looked like Peach's castle in the Mario Bros. game. Gotta love those discussions with the 19 year old. Also, makd and I and a few others at one point also wondered about all the references to cyborgs and robots this season. I love a puzzle, and it will be neat to see how some of the pieces fit together in the end.
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Feb 7, 2004 20:30:03 GMT -5
The childishness is just part of what I object to with Fury; he EXPLICITLY rejects the necessity to conform his theories about characters to the continuity of the show, and is, as far as I can see, pretty much the root of a lot of the needless wrangling about the nature and intent of not only Spike and Angel but also Willow and Buffy in s.6 and 7 BtVS. My calling him a narcissist back there was not just a reflection of Nan's words but a response to his latest Bronze Beta posting and every interview I've read with him. I cannot respect writers on group projects who set themselves above the opinion of the group, as he repeatedly has. That he also stands in open contempt of the audience is the final nail in his coffin (stake in heart, beheaded) Julia, and I REALLY think he needs to be prevented from directing his own stuff. You know, I really don't see that Angel and Spike are being shown to be acting all that childish. I thought Spike showed some forward progression with his bite first, ask questions later attitude. Later he offered his assistance to Angel, who accepted it. Still later, he admits he was duped - and no big deal - went off for a drink with the group. No matter how mature we all get, I think we all regress at times. Spike and Angel's stumbles are a part of life as are their reasons for their hic cups. I know that in my life, I start to think I've got things pretty much figured out, and then life smacks me upside the head. Angel and Spike are only human demon - they are still figuring things out.
|
|
|
Post by spikeNdru on Feb 7, 2004 20:37:31 GMT -5
makd: My problem with The Fury as scriptwriter of Spike is similar to my problem with Chris Golden as novel writer of Spike. I have read interviews and seen Chris Golden speak at a conference, and I think neither man really believes in the "redeemability" of Spike.
Last summer, following the airing of Chosen, both men were still spouting the "Spke is still essentially evil" line, and both refused to see anything noble in Spike's sacrifice---remarks by both seemed to indicate that Spike's motivation for wearing the amulet was selfish (to impress Buffy). Ergo, I firmly believe that The Fury was "telling it like he sees it" in Destiny when he had Angel make the comment "You just wanted to get into her pants." I think that is the way Fury sees Spike.
His "I am the best writer of Spike; I really understand the character of Spike" rants that I have read in interviews and his noticable writing of what appears to be S4 "chipped" Spike in this year's AtS episodes will unfortunately probably continue and may lead to a somewhat schizo development of Spike's character this year.
Fury's "adolescentization" of Spike along with Steve DeKnight's perpetual torture of Spike (has that man ever written an episode where Spike wasn't tortured in some way?) seem to me to have Spike's character development going one step forward, two steps back.
I did love Cordy in this episode. When I heard she would be appearing in the 100th I was really wishing David Greenwalt would do the ep, as he always seemed to have the best grasp of her character, but I have no complaints about the way David Fury wrote her...now if he could just transfer some of that "loving sarcasm" to Spikey...
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Feb 7, 2004 22:00:45 GMT -5
Could be you're right, makd--that we're seeing regression because of the return, Buffy-style. Certainly Spike hasn't had much luck connecting with anybody on a deep level since he manifested. Fred is the closest (except for those few minutes at the end of Damage with Angel, and the accepting camarederie with Andrew in this ep) and that's not nearly enough for him to find his balance in even a minimal network of relationships. He's still adrift and at sea. But I didn't feel the superficiality of his reactions in other episodes as plainly as I did in this Fury-scripted ep. I just hope we're treated to a more balanced portrayal in the eps to come--with Ultimate Drew and the promising others. Spike also doesn't have anyone to connect with because they're all pretty much strangers to him, with the exception of Angel and Harmony, both of whom he has had "real" moments with. And that's saying a lot, considering he's had pretty much bad relationships with them both in the past. (Okay, with Harm, not so much bad from his point of view as boring, but he has reason to avoid connecting with her.) My memory of S7 Spike is that he was still pretty much his snarky old self with everyone but Buffy and Dawn, the two characters with whom he had the deepest relationships - relationships that took years to build. I guess I'm not seeing a change in Spike so much as a change in Spike's surroundings, combined with the understandable stand-offishness that comes of being thrust suddenly into a new situation, with all new people, who have pre-existing relationships that he's not part of.
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Feb 7, 2004 23:35:24 GMT -5
Spike also doesn't have anyone to connect with because they're all pretty much strangers to him, with the exception of Angel and Harmony, both of whom he has had "real" moments with. And that's saying a lot, considering he's had pretty much bad relationships with them both in the past. (Okay, with Harm, not so much bad from his point of view as boring, but he has reason to avoid connecting with her.) My memory of S7 Spike is that he was still pretty much his snarky old self with everyone but Buffy and Dawn, the two characters with whom he had the deepest relationships - relationships that took years to build. I guess I'm not seeing a change in Spike so much as a change in Spike's surroundings, combined with the understandable stand-offishness that comes of being thrust suddenly into a new situation, with all new people, who have pre-existing relationships that he's not part of. Actually, I don't recall much non-apocalypse-related interaction btw Spike and the Scoobies after Sleeper (and the discovery of his being back to his killing ways) in Season 7. Except: Anya (in Get It Done) who was probably just as lonely as he was; Giles (to whom he snarked only after the attempt on his life); Faith (with whom there were no guilt issues); Robin (who was a rival); Andrew (not by Spike's choice). I do think that the Scoobies accepted him at a basic level (Xander's pat on his back while chaining him up in Lies My Parents Told Me comes to mind), but I don't recall any onscreen one on one interaction after Sleeper (except those listed above) -- not even with Dawn. So I think the emotional isolation actually stretches back to last season's Buffy. And is therefore a part of his soul re-integration, IMO. Please feel free to list examples where I am in error. It would make me feel better for season 7 Spike. Linda, who has many a " duh" moment after forgetting the obvious...
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Feb 7, 2004 23:39:25 GMT -5
Actually, I don't recall much non-apocalypse-related interaction btw Spike and the Scoobies after Sleeper (and the discovery of his being back to his killing ways) in Season 7. Except: Anya (in Get It Done) who was probably just as lonely as he was; Giles (to whom he snarked only after the attempt on his life); Faith (with whom there were no guilt issues); Robin (who was a rival); Andrew (not by Spike's choice). I do think that the Scoobies accepted him at a basic level (Xander's pat on his back while chaining him up in Lies My Parents Told Me comes to mind), but I don't recall any onscreen one on one interaction after Sleeper (except those listed above) -- not even with Dawn. So I think the emotional isolation actually stretches back to last season's Buffy. And is therefore a part of his soul re-integration, IMO. Please feel free to list examples where I am in error. It would make me feel better for season 7 Spike. Linda, who has many a " duh" moment after forgetting the obvious... No, I think you're right; which is why I'm really not seeing a difference between s7 Spike and the current version - except that we have no Buffy for him to have tender moments that prove his humanity with.
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Feb 8, 2004 0:15:21 GMT -5
Oh yes, I forgot to add to the previous post:
Thank you again, Nan, for your wonderful analysis. Everyone else has already pointed out the things I like about it. But I just wanted to say:
I sincerely hope you are right about Eve being gone. For good.
I'm agreeing as well with most people's Fury comments so far. (And thanks to Matt--I think--who posted the link to someone's "cheese anvil" David fury comments on the main thread. Hee.)
I haven't re-watched the episode like I usually do, due to my Cordy-related melancholy.
Still, a couple of things struck me:
1. Does Wes know about Conner? I don't recall any "Who's Conner?" reaction shots of him. We don't really know where he went or what he did during the events of Destiny.
2. Does the Sebassis slave being back in custody (re-enslaved) have any thematic resonance? Especially in light of Angel's new determination not to quit W&H?
3. I loved the Cordy Season 1-style snark about Spike's hair. She was (understandably) a bit too Saint Cordelia with everyone else in the gang for her old style snarking.
4. Just my opinion: the Lindsey and Angel fight at the end didn't grab my emotions the way I thought it should. I mean, Angel getting his "mojo" back ;D is very important, but it didn't have the raw immediacy of his epic fight with Spike. Lindsey didn't seem to me to be up to his weight, challenge-wise, power upgrade notwithstanding. And as for the sword through the heart? Never thought Angel was in serious danger. Perhaps if Lindsey's reason for going after Angel was something other than envy, it would have held more resonance. Or something.
5. All that said, the final scene between Cordy & Angel still brings sniffles. CC & DB are wonderful.
Thank you again, Nan, for your analysis.
Linda, who will watch the episode again, with your analysis to help...
|
|
|
Post by RAKSHA on Feb 8, 2004 2:15:49 GMT -5
No, I think you're right; which is why I'm really not seeing a difference between s7 Spike and the current version - except that we have no Buffy for him to have tender moments that prove his humanity with. I disagree, in that Spike is acting more mature, though thankfully not all-grown-up this year. For the first time in his entire existence, mortal and otherwise, Spike is functioning on his own, being emotionally independent, without a beloved female at the center of his universe. It's been hard for him, but necessary. He hasn't regressed to pre-S7 evilness, he's consistantly resisted temptation, and he's striking out on his own, albeit with a bit of support from Fred and Angel. There are indications that he's not entirely comfortable yet with what he perceives as his role as The Solitary Hero, all the drinking of alcohol, but he keeps trying.
In YOU'RE WELCOME, Spike demonstrates that he can think independantly and is not Lindsey's or anyone's puppet by only nipping Cordelia to determine whether or not she was evil before taking further action. He also learns that he HAD been played by Lindsey, and surprise, does not have a temper tantrum or go off to sulk in his basement appartment as he might have done during the BUFFY years - he makes a remark about gee, what happened to his destiny, but it doesn't sound like he's devastated, then goes off to have a drink with Angel & Co. Progress.
And Spike has also made a huge leap, for him, in the understanding/acceptance of guilt for the evil he did as a soulless vampire. He knows now that his past actions can't be as easily dismissed as he used to do, that they have consequences in other people's lives, he has learned to think about the victims as individuals and feel remorse for them to a greater extent than before, without wallowing in guilt.
Spike is at the same point in his life that Angel was in S1 of AtvS; only Spike hasn't had much guidance or support and has to work things through more on his own...I think he's doing fine and will find a worthy path to follow....[glow=purple,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
|
|
|
Post by ellie on Feb 8, 2004 10:24:03 GMT -5
I think you're right about this, Tesla. Angelus, and now Angel, has copied and internalized the only wrathful dominance model he has--his father's treatment of him--and in turn imposed it on Spike. I don't think Spike's rebelliousness was likewise inherent in William. Blow in Spike's ear, show him affection and gentleness, and he'll follow you anywhere. I suspect that Spike, like Liam, fell into the appropriate resentful defiant role because Angelus treated him with the same overbearing contempt and disapproval as Liam's father treated him. Their reactions were the same (given the essential differences in personality) because the cause was the same, perpetuated by Angelus. Whereby this generation's abused children often (but not always) become the next generation's abusers. It's the only parental model role they know, or know how to enact. Nan- I like your reasoning about the "parental" style depicted thus far- the major characters have had these roles thrust upon them and they struggle mightily with how to respond- Remember when Angel apologized to Lindsey ( while kicking his tail and preparatory to hijacking his truck to rescue his team) for not helping him more when he came to him in Season 2? It will be interesting if Angel is ever able to come to terms with his dad whom he has always imagined as hating him in addition to being disappointed in him. Accepting that those we love can be disappointed in us /and that we can survive and still love them is a lifelong lesson. Angel has so many little brothers whom he has disappointed and or abused and they in turn have enraged/betrayed and or disappointed him. Odds are some of them are going to be lost in the coming fray. Angelus' children coming home to roost- and they will all be pale ghosts or reflections/echoes of generations of parents.... ellie
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 8, 2004 11:29:58 GMT -5
Actually, I don't recall much non-apocalypse-related interaction btw Spike and the Scoobies after Sleeper (and the discovery of his being back to his killing ways) in Season 7. Except: Anya (in Get It Done) who was probably just as lonely as he was; Giles (to whom he snarked only after the attempt on his life); Faith (with whom there were no guilt issues); Robin (who was a rival); Andrew (not by Spike's choice). I do think that the Scoobies accepted him at a basic level (Xander's pat on his back while chaining him up in Lies My Parents Told Me comes to mind), but I don't recall any onscreen one on one interaction after Sleeper (except those listed above) -- not even with Dawn. So I think the emotional isolation actually stretches back to last season's Buffy. And is therefore a part of his soul re-integration, IMO. Please feel free to list examples where I am in error. It would make me feel better for season 7 Spike. Linda, who has many a " duh" moment after forgetting the obvious... There's at least implied interaction with Dawn: she's the one who runs to check on him after the demon throws him through the ceiling in "Get it Done". Otherwise, not so much, true- as we see in "Killer in Me" he's intentionally keeping away from people when Buffy's not with him, through LMPTM, and after that, ther's not much that happens except fighting. Julia
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Feb 8, 2004 13:24:45 GMT -5
I disagree, in that Spike is acting more mature, though thankfully not all-grown-up this year. For the first time in his entire existence, mortal and otherwise, Spike is functioning on his own, being emotionally independent, without a beloved female at the center of his universe. It's been hard for him, but necessary. He hasn't regressed to pre-S7 evilness, he's consistantly resisted temptation, and he's striking out on his own, albeit with a bit of support from Fred and Angel. There are indications that he's not entirely comfortable yet with what he perceives as his role as The Solitary Hero, all the drinking of alcohol, but he keeps trying.
In YOU'RE WELCOME, Spike demonstrates that he can think independantly and is not Lindsey's or anyone's puppet by only nipping Cordelia to determine whether or not she was evil before taking further action. He also learns that he HAD been played by Lindsey, and surprise, does not have a temper tantrum or go off to sulk in his basement appartment as he might have done during the BUFFY years - he makes a remark about gee, what happened to his destiny, but it doesn't sound like he's devastated, then goes off to have a drink with Angel & Co. Progress.
And Spike has also made a huge leap, for him, in the understanding/acceptance of guilt for the evil he did as a soulless vampire. He knows now that his past actions can't be as easily dismissed as he used to do, that they have consequences in other people's lives, he has learned to think about the victims as individuals and feel remorse for them to a greater extent than before, without wallowing in guilt.
Spike is at the same point in his life that Angel was in S1 of AtvS; only Spike hasn't had much guidance or support and has to work things through more on his own...I think he's doing fine and will find a worthy path to follow....[glow=purple,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Gail - I agree with what you say; my argument started out as a disagreement with those who think Spike's character has regressed this season, and are missing the Spike of season 7. In my viewing of the character, this is not the case - and I was arguing (in a most unclear fashion) that I believe the absense of a woman to adore makes him seem less human, more snarky, when that's not the case at all.
|
|
|
Post by makd onbreak on Feb 8, 2004 14:56:04 GMT -5
makd: My problem with The Fury as scriptwriter of Spike is similar to my problem with Chris Golden as novel writer of Spike. I have read interviews and seen Chris Golden speak at a conference, and I think neither man really believes in the "redeemability" of Spike. Last summer, following the airing of Chosen, both men were still spouting the "Spke is still essentially evil" line, and both refused to see anything noble in Spike's sacrifice---remarks by both seemed to indicate that Spike's motivation for wearing the amulet was selfish (to impress Buffy). Ergo, I firmly believe that The Fury was "telling it like he sees it" in Destiny when he had Angel make the comment "You just wanted to get into her pants." I think that is the way Fury sees Spike. His "I am the best writer of Spike; I really understand the character of Spike" rants that I have read in interviews and his noticable writing of what appears to be S4 "chipped" Spike in this year's AtS episodes will unfortunately probably continue and may lead to a somewhat schizo development of Spike's character this year. Fury's "adolescentization" of Spike along with Steve DeKnight's perpetual torture of Spike (has that man ever written an episode where Spike wasn't tortured in some way?) seem to me to have Spike's character development going one step forward, two steps back. I did love Cordy in this episode. When I heard she would be appearing in the 100th I was really wishing David Greenwalt would do the ep, as he always seemed to have the best grasp of her character, but I have no complaints about the way David Fury wrote her...now if he could just transfer some of that "loving sarcasm" to Spikey... Right there with you, Scooter. Problem is, as I stated earlier, I think that's where ME WANTS Spike to be - season 4, snarky, unredeemable, untrustworthy. Why? Because I think THEY think that's the Spike the fans like best. As to The Fury - he's showrunner, second in command to Joss Whedon. As long as Joss is content with how Spike is portrayed, we won't see the Spike we expect to see - that is, EndofSeason7!Spike. We'll continue to see Season4!Spike.
|
|
makd still on quick break
Guest
|
Post by makd still on quick break on Feb 8, 2004 15:00:24 GMT -5
I disagree, in that Spike is acting more mature, though thankfully not all-grown-up this year. For the first time in his entire existence, mortal and otherwise, Spike is functioning on his own, being emotionally independent, without a beloved female at the center of his universe. It's been hard for him, but necessary. He hasn't regressed to pre-S7 evilness, he's consistantly resisted temptation, and he's striking out on his own, albeit with a bit of support from Fred and Angel. There are indications that he's not entirely comfortable yet with what he perceives as his role as The Solitary Hero, all the drinking of alcohol, but he keeps trying.
In YOU'RE WELCOME, Spike demonstrates that he can think independantly and is not Lindsey's or anyone's puppet by only nipping Cordelia to determine whether or not she was evil before taking further action. He also learns that he HAD been played by Lindsey, and surprise, does not have a temper tantrum or go off to sulk in his basement appartment as he might have done during the BUFFY years - he makes a remark about gee, what happened to his destiny, but it doesn't sound like he's devastated, then goes off to have a drink with Angel & Co. Progress.
And Spike has also made a huge leap, for him, in the understanding/acceptance of guilt for the evil he did as a soulless vampire. He knows now that his past actions can't be as easily dismissed as he used to do, that they have consequences in other people's lives, he has learned to think about the victims as individuals and feel remorse for them to a greater extent than before, without wallowing in guilt.
Spike is at the same point in his life that Angel was in S1 of AtvS; only Spike hasn't had much guidance or support and has to work things through more on his own...I think he's doing fine and will find a worthy path to follow....[glow=purple,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Gail I am SO not worthy: my thanks for bringing me back from the abyss of Fury!Spike. I had forgotten/hadn't realized all the positive growth Spike has made thus far this season. You are the best, and my gratitude for once again helping me to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 8, 2004 15:23:37 GMT -5
Gail I am SO not worthy: my thanks for bringing me back from the abyss of Fury!Spike. I had forgotten/hadn't realized all the positive growth Spike has made thus far this season. You are the best, and my gratitude for once again helping me to see the light at the end of the tunnel. All of this, and watching "Green Eyed Monster" last night, reminds me that some show-runners have been punished for fan torture when they show up at cons; David Kemper got pummelled with trout at one Farscape con, for reasons which I cannot now remember. As I've said somewhere, although probably not in this thread, there seems to be an unhealthy feeling at ME of wanting to show the fans who's in control of character and story, which, I think, results in stuff happening not because it makes sense, but because it'll piss off some faction of the fandom. Humans! Huh! Julia, on the other hand so far this season I'm at least shown SOME evidence that they're not dragging characters all over the lot in terms of motivation and development
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 8, 2004 17:57:40 GMT -5
Julia, I agree. Although there have been a few ho-hum episodes (I name no names), Season 5 has been a whole lot more lively and engrossing than Season 4, and there have been a handful of really superb episodes in the first half of the season--more than I'd necessarily expect in a whole season. And with any luck at all, more to come!
|
|