|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 13, 2004 14:04:52 GMT -5
|
|
Tesla
Junior S'cubie
the ice is getting thinner
Posts: 11
|
Post by Tesla on Feb 13, 2004 16:54:03 GMT -5
Very insightful review, as always, Nan.
I was raised on WWII movies, so it was fun for me. I did
NOT like the ananchronisitic dialogue. But I did like the
whole case of cans o' worms opened by the siring of Lawson by a souled vampire. The show seems to be more and more about Angel as Dad, doesn't it?
And since Dads in the Jossverse do NOT fare well,
I'm kind of nervous.
|
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Feb 13, 2004 17:52:12 GMT -5
Nan:
Excellent work as always; really love how you brought the "son" theme to the fore.
I thought it was interesting too, that with all the emphasis on "sons" that the last shot is Angel looking out at the sunrise through the necrotempered glass.
Also, loved the amount of Buffy shout-outs:
1) Captain America: With all the Initiative stuff, it was interesting that the crew paralleled Angel w/Captain America; Xander referred to Riley as Captain America at least once (in Shadow), not to mention articles and fans referring to him as such.
2) Fury: Oddly enough, not being a comic book person, I thought they were doing a shout out to Sargeant Fury; but it could also be David Fury as well. Also, there was a commander Petrie in the episode (like the Buffy writer).
3) "I was Rasputin's lover!" This was hilarious, and dovetails nicely with Buffy suggesting in her history class in "Checkpoint" that Rasputin was a vampire:
|
|
|
|
Post by Dev(Rob) on Feb 13, 2004 18:01:09 GMT -5
My main gripe with the episode was that when Angel and Lawson were fighting and Angel had the chance to dust him he fell for Lawson’s bluff. Wes, Fred and Gunn were stood on chairs with nooses around their necks however if Angel had of dusted Lawson he would of found them eventually and would have been able to remove the nooses. My point is that IF Angel had of dusted Lawson who was there to push the rest of the FG off the chairs? No one … this leads me to believe one of a few things; Lawson didn’t actually want to hurt the FG and just wanted to draw Angel into a fight (although why didn’t he just let him dust him or continue the fight in the original location), there was a mishap with the writing of the episode or it was apart of Lawson’s plan. When Angel and Lawson walked into the room from the elevator Angel had time to see that they were on chairs still unharmed and do something before Lawson could get near them. It is just a little ambiguous for me. The whole scene where the military men burst into Angel’s room is also a little ambiguous and raises more questions than it answers in my opinion. All throughout this scene all I could think of was “the initiative” (Demon Research INITIATIVE) and this was backed up in my mind when the German prisoner translated the notes that read about “controlling” vampires for the war effort… this is fanwank I know but did the American government want that ship because of its cargo of Spike and co as well as the German notes on controlling such demons? This episode could explain also how Spike got to be in America in the first place. This episode or the fact he came to New York to hunt the new slayer in the 80’s. Something also bothering me is the dropping of Angel in the water with weights on him … how could he of actually found the sub – fair enough he doesn’t need oxygen so that isn’t a problem but his body is still in human form, under that pressure it would have been sucked in like a ping pong ball does when you put it under atmospheric pressure. As well as this his eyes are just like humans, I know Vampires have a greater sense of smell but it is very murky at those depths so how he could see well enough to get into a torpedo tube is beyond me! Onto more positive notes now and I was quite impressed by the supporting cast and thought the actors playing the sailors did a good job. It was also good to know that Spike didn’t join the Nazi party willingly and it was just a jacket he was wearing  The trailer didn’t make that too clear! Spike was submissive to Angel, letting him grab him by the neck, sling him around, give him orders (i.e. all he said was "bollocks" when Angel made him swim for his life before sunrise). Shows how far Spike has come with regards to feeling underneath Angel now he has a soul, especially since Destiny when Spike won a fight with Angel for the first time. During 1940's Spike couldn’t or didn’t believe he could defeat Angel. This goes back to the Angel/Spike relationship arc of the season, I’m enjoying watching this unfold. With regards to Angel being the sire of Lawson whilst having a soul business… I felt that Lawson was pretty merciful and a little bit more sombre than for example the kid that Angel sired whilst soulless who later returned in season1 or season2 (can’t remember which) and started to kill using the symbol Angel used as a younger vamp. This may be down to personality tares or the fact that they are two different people but I think that’s a little coincidental. I like the idea that Angel “just gave him enough” so that Lawson was in-between a sate of having a soul and not having a soul as a vampire, he was sort of neutered, although he could kill there was no feeling of thrill or excitement, he did so purely to eat and stop hunger. Within this episode there was no inclination as to whether Angel has described or even spoke about the Cordy situation with the FG. It does reinforce many of the S’cubies thoughts however that Fred is Spikes main friend and source of conversation from within the FG. Oh and does anyone else think Spike should become head of security at W&H?  As always Nan, a good review. Dev  |
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 13, 2004 19:20:22 GMT -5
My main gripe with the episode was that when Angel and Lawson were fighting and Angel had the chance to dust him he fell for Lawson’s bluff. Wes, Fred and Gunn were stood on chairs with nooses around their necks however if Angel had of dusted Lawson he would of found them eventually and would have been able to remove the nooses. My point is that IF Angel had of dusted Lawson who was there to push the rest of the FG off the chairs? No one … this leads me to believe one of a few things; Lawson didn’t actually want to hurt the FG and just wanted to draw Angel into a fight (although why didn’t he just let him dust him or continue the fight in the original location), there was a mishap with the writing of the episode or it was apart of Lawson’s plan. When Angel and Lawson walked into the room from the elevator Angel had time to see that they were on chairs still unharmed and do something before Lawson could get near them. It is just a little ambiguous for me. The whole scene where the military men burst into Angel’s room is also a little ambiguous and raises more questions than it answers in my opinion. All throughout this scene all I could think of was “the initiative” (Demon Research INITIATIVE) and this was backed up in my mind when the German prisoner translated the notes that read about “controlling” vampires for the war effort… this is fanwank I know but did the American government want that ship because of its cargo of Spike and co as well as the German notes on controlling such demons? This episode could explain also how Spike got to be in America in the first place. This episode or the fact he came to New York to hunt the new slayer in the 80’s. Something also bothering me is the dropping of Angel in the water with weights on him … how could he of actually found the sub – fair enough he doesn’t need oxygen so that isn’t a problem but his body is still in human form, under that pressure it would have been sucked in like a ping pong ball does when you put it under atmospheric pressure. As well as this his eyes are just like humans, I know Vampires have a greater sense of smell but it is very murky at those depths so how he could see well enough to get into a torpedo tube is beyond me! Onto more positive notes now and I was quite impressed by the supporting cast and thought the actors playing the sailors did a good job. It was also good to know that Spike didn’t join the Nazi party willingly and it was just a jacket he was wearing The trailer didn’t make that too clear! Spike was submissive to Angel, letting him grab him by the neck, sling him around, give him orders (i.e. all he said was "bollocks" when Angel made him swim for his life before sunrise). Shows how far Spike has come with regards to feeling underneath Angel now he has a soul, especially since Destiny when Spike won a fight with Angel for the first time. During 1940's Spike couldn’t or didn’t believe he could defeat Angel. This goes back to the Angel/Spike relationship arc of the season, I’m enjoying watching this unfold. With regards to Angel being the sire of Lawson whilst having a soul business… I felt that Lawson was pretty merciful and a little bit more sombre than for example the kid that Angel sired whilst soulless who later returned in season1 or season2 (can’t remember which) and started to kill using the symbol Angel used as a younger vamp. This may be down to personality tares or the fact that they are two different people but I think that’s a little coincidental. I like the idea that Angel “just gave him enough” so that Lawson was in-between a sate of having a soul and not having a soul as a vampire, he was sort of neutered, although he could kill there was no feeling of thrill or excitement, he did so purely to eat and stop hunger. Within this episode there was no inclination as to whether Angel has described or even spoke about the Cordy situation with the FG. It does reinforce many of the S’cubies thoughts however that Fred is Spikes main friend and source of conversation from within the FG. Oh and does anyone else think Spike should become head of security at W&H? As always Nan, a good review. Dev Thank you, Dev. I'm not convinced Angel gave him part of his soul--that's too unproven for me. However, I be persuaded that Angel's demon was weakened by the soul's presence, so the demon Lawson received was a weaker one...that's possible. But the transfer of a soul or part of one *during siring* seems very unlikely and is only conjectured by Lawson, who *asks* Angel if he (Lawson) has a soul. If he himself doesn't know, I doubt he knows anything about what's possible in the siring process, either. And his conjecture convinces neither Angel nor me, in the absence of any confirming evidence. |
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 13, 2004 19:25:32 GMT -5
Nan: Excellent work as always; really love how you brought the "son" theme to the fore. I thought it was interesting too, that with all the emphasis on "sons" that the last shot is Angel looking out at the sunrise through the necrotempered glass. Also, loved the amount of Buffy shout-outs: 1) Captain America: With all the Initiative stuff, it was interesting that the crew paralleled Angel w/Captain America; Xander referred to Riley as Captain America at least once (in Shadow), not to mention articles and fans referring to him as such. 2) Fury: Oddly enough, not being a comic book person, I thought they were doing a shout out to Sargeant Fury; but it could also be David Fury as well. Also, there was a commander Petrie in the episode (like the Buffy writer). 3) "I was Rasputin's lover!" This was hilarious, and dovetails nicely with Buffy suggesting in her history class in "Checkpoint" that Rasputin was a vampire: Very good connections, Erin--my memory of things Buffy wasn't good enough to dredge up the references you mention: they're apt and useful. And Fury is such an unusual name that I connected with David Fury (not being much of a comic reader, I've never heard of Sergeant Fury) but didn't click on Doug Petrie. You're certainly right about that possible connection, in choice of names. |
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Feb 13, 2004 19:44:37 GMT -5
Very good connections, Erin--my memory of things Buffy wasn't good enough to dredge up the references you mention: they're apt and useful. And Fury is such an unusual name that I connected with David Fury (not being much of a comic reader, I've never heard of Sergeant Fury) but didn't click on Doug Petrie. You're certainly right about that possible connection, in choice of names. For some reason, I've got a good memory for music, dialogue, and literature. Remembering my keys, important dates, or what's due at a particular time, not so good. Funny: the only reason I know Sargeant Fury is because there are references to him all over any Stephen King book set in childhood. Again, lovely work; you always point out things I've missed and make connections I hadn't thought of; it makes me want to rewatch the episode. You're going to do this next season too, right? |
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 13, 2004 19:53:34 GMT -5
For some reason, I've got a good memory for music, dialogue, and literature. Remembering my keys, important dates, or what's due at a particular time, not so good. Funny: the only reason I know Sargeant Fury is because there are references to him all over any Stephen King book set in childhood. Again, lovely work; you always point out things I've missed and make connections I hadn't thought of; it makes me want to rewatch the episode. You're going to do this next season too, right? God willing, if the creek don't rise, unless someone else would like a crack at being the "regular reviewer." I'll wait to see if an eager volunteer comes forward. I've gotten this reviewing business rolling, it seems, but I'd have no least objection to someone else having a turn. Most of the guest reviews have been original, witty, and excellent, so I know we have a wide pool of talent to draw upon, RL considerations permitting. I'm glad you enjoyed the review, Erin. As witness our heated and lengthy discussion of this ep and related issues on the S 3 board, it would seem there was a lot more to "get your teeth into" in this episode than in "You're Welcome," even though that episode seems to have been more widely liked and emotionally evocative and powerful. "You're Welcome" was pretty much on the surface, whereas the present submarine story...has depth. ___________________________ Later: It's official: 5 and out. So who does the reviews becomes entirely moot. |
|
|
|
Post by Cal on Feb 13, 2004 20:03:35 GMT -5
Well done, Nan. A great review, as always. I wasn't sure whether I liked this episode or not at first. But, having watched it again, I have decided that I did like the story, but was left feeling a little disappointed after the great episodes we have got used to over the last few weeks. I felt that it didn't really move the story arc along, which is what I am eager to see.
Having said that, it did raise some interesting questions, which you have covered very well in your review.
Thanks again, Nan, for a great review.
Cal
|
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 13, 2004 20:06:09 GMT -5
Nan, great job, as usual. I think the father/son themes are getting a real workout this season, both in regard to Angel/Connor, Angel/Spike and Angel/Lawson but also Wesley/Robodad... so much for stand-alone episodes without a unifying theme! Unlike Dev, I think the scene in Angel's apartment establishes one important fact about Angel's persona in 1943; the pile of newspapers on the floor show that he is interested in the war. It seems to me that from "Angel" in BtVS s.1 on, what Angel is reading or writing or drawing is used as a big red arrow pointing to his mental state. For a shallow moment, the actor who played Fury has the ugliest mouth I have ever seen on a human. I think the issues of good and evil and responsibility for the choices we make is set out in a remarkably stark fashion in this episode, and as usual, we're given few pat answers and a lot of ambiguous clues. Julia, hoping I'm never so motivated to watch a submarine story again  |
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Feb 13, 2004 20:15:27 GMT -5
Great review, as always, Nan. I'm with Cal, I've decided I liked the story, but there are some holes in the way it was executed. I understand why Angel didn't stake Lawson on the couch, but I would have thought he would have kept ahold of him and staked him as soon as he saw the hostages in the lobby. Angel would have known by then that Lawson didn't have an accomplice and he could have easily rescued the hostages after the dust settled. I'm spoiled, but I don't usually read the details. I hadn't read that anyone would get turned on the sub, but I knew Lawson was a vamp as soon as he stepped off the elevator. Is ME slipping or am I getting better at guessing the plot "suprises"?
|
|
|
|
Post by frolliday on Feb 14, 2004 0:32:59 GMT -5
In the season three ep. where Spike awakes in his Initiative cell his neighbor says something like:
"They knock us out and then experiment on us"
To which Spike replies along the lines of...
"Oh yeah. And who are they? TEXTThe Government? Nazis?TEXTA major cosmetics company?"
So it would appear that Spike had memories of this Sub encounter after all. Granted, when that ep aired no one had dreamed up WHY WE FIGHT. But Goodard (Continuity God) went back to that long ago Buffy ep. and found justification for this plot.
And DAMN THE WB to the very depths of every Hell there is!
|
|
|
|
Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Feb 14, 2004 0:38:54 GMT -5
For some reason, I've got a good memory for music, dialogue, and literature. Remembering my keys, important dates, or what's due at a particular time, not so good. Funny: the only reason I know Sargeant Fury is because there are references to him all over any Stephen King book set in childhood. Again, lovely work; you always point out things I've missed and make connections I hadn't thought of; it makes me want to rewatch the episode. You're going to do this next season too, right? oh man...now that's just so sad....  But Nan, good review - I re-watched the episode this morning early and don't dislike it as much as I did - after reading your review I'm inclined to think it had more worth than I gave it. I'm too sad right now to say much more, but I wanted to tell you - good job once again. |
|
|
|
Post by aria on Feb 14, 2004 0:51:22 GMT -5
I'm really devestated -- as I'm sure many of you are, about the WB's newest announcement. If any of you are interested -- supportingspike.com has started a petition -- you can sign it at: www.petitiononline.com/sans6rd/petition.htmlDon't know that it can do any good -- but I'm feeling so helpless right now, I'll try anything... |
|
|
|
Post by Rabid Nelson on Feb 14, 2004 3:36:03 GMT -5
I checked back and Spike doesn't say "groovy" but rather "gravy" which I don't believe is anachronistic.
It was pretty damn hard for me to understand what was being said in the supposed "Damn skippy!" line since I've only seen the pre-air and it sounds like the line really badly needs to be looped. Sometimes they do last minute looping after the preairs, somehow.
|
|
The trailer didn’t make that too clear! Spike was submissive to Angel, letting him grab him by the neck, sling him around, give him orders (i.e. all he said was "bollocks" when Angel made him swim for his life before sunrise). Shows how far Spike has come with regards to feeling underneath Angel now he has a soul, especially since Destiny when Spike won a fight with Angel for the first time. During 1940's Spike couldn’t or didn’t believe he could defeat Angel. This goes back to the Angel/Spike relationship arc of the season, I’m enjoying watching this unfold. 
