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Post by Linda on Feb 22, 2004 7:06:08 GMT -5
Hi Nan, I just wanted to add my opinion to all the others about how much I appreciate your reviews. I am always amazed at the things you (and the rest of the S3 posters) notice. I am afraid that I have nothing more specific or coherent to add at this hour. Except to say thanks. <snip> I am truly concerned for our William. He's now foggier than Angel, who seems to have re-found his mission, thanks to Cordy, Lawson, Nina and the self-esteem song. And Spike? he's more confused than ever. I fear for our boy; I fear for him. I'm glad for Angel, but I fear for Spike. I am also fearing for Gunn. Big time. Mega time. Macrotime. In fact, right now, the only character I'm not totally fearing for is Harmony. Hi Makd, ITA. Except -- you realize that if something happens to Harmony, it will be all your fault ... Well OK, I now have a question ... we saw both Angel & Fred talking to Wes in a non-work capacity. (Yay!) With whom would Gunn talk about his moral dilemma(s) these days? Who's gonna help him with his self-esteem issues? Because it seems that everyone else in this episode got a little help from their friends when they needed a boost. But Gunn was all alone. I don't recall any one on one conversations between Gunn and anyone else in the group that didn't involve work since Angel's confession in Destiny. For Gunn's sake, I hope my memory is faulty. Or I hope that he has had heartfelt (but non-puppety) conversations with one of the others off-camera. (I can't recall any evidence to support this hope, however.) Still, Gunn had a couple of nice moments in this episode. For some reason, I still snicker at the memory of the arm smack he gave when Lorne was about to succumb to Papa Smurf's hot chocolate blandishments. And I liked Gunn's puppet fight stuff. Hee. Linda, who hopes that Gunn can come back from the howling abyss with fingers and soul still attached ...
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Post by me on Feb 22, 2004 10:31:47 GMT -5
uhm In Destiny, Spike was so powerful he could bend reality; he could beat Angel; he could hold a giant cross, without burning. Now he's so weak he's beaten by a puppet!Angel. He's a hero, but he can't find the help he needs to determine his mission.
spike was a ghosty-thing thats why he was able to use his will to bend reality, he beat angel yup cus he had strength of convivtion which angel at the time lacked
AND spike wasn't beaten by puppit angel, they stopped fighting, after angel layed one blow in the elevator, on the floor spike is still snickering, he wasn't beaten they just weren't really fighting , angel just needed to vent, then he walked away,
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 22, 2004 17:54:11 GMT -5
ITA! ;) Wondering what would happen to Spike if he got hit by a stray sunbeam? Would he smoulder as expected? It's something that's been lurking standing about at the back of my mind ever since Spike picked up the cross in Destiny. I know! I know! (wildly waving hand in air) Per my own fiction, Spike can now channel a considerable amount of heat/sunlight/fire, etc., through his experience in closing the Hellmouth. He's built up a considerable tolerance to the things that would normally make a vamp go all flamey. Admittedly, it's fanwank, but it accounts for what are otherwise inexplicable incongruities, like his holding the cross with minimal damage in " Destiny," that we've seen him do this season since his recorporealization. #nosmileys
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Post by LadyDi on Feb 22, 2004 21:29:36 GMT -5
I know! I know! Per my own fiction, Spike can now channel a considerable amount of heat/sunlight/fire, etc., through his experience in closing the Hellmouth. He's built up a considerable tolerance to the things that would normally make a vamp go all flamey. Admittedly, it's fanwank, but it accounts for what are otherwise inexplicable incongruities, like his holding the cross with minimal damage in " Destiny," that we've seen him do this season since his recorporealization. It's just so frustrating ME seems to have dropped the what's different about Spike now thread. I'm hoping they'll be weaving it back in sometime soon. I'd love to see him in the sun w/o needing the necrotempered glass.
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Post by Sue on Feb 23, 2004 12:53:07 GMT -5
Nan! I thought you were joking - but you put my little list in and made it even better! I'm squeaking in happiness! I'm a full grow'd woman running around my house squeaking because my name got into a Nan Dibble review! OK. Calmer now. Thank you so much for the mention. Now on to my thoughts on your review. Lola Bizarrely, I'm going to respond to responses before responding to the actual review. Lola, not that you have self-esteem issues, but....doesn't everyone just love being personally acknowledged anytime, anyplace by someone else who's opinion they respect? We all love to be responded to and acknowledged. Talk about a universal need. Maybe not as much as food and water, but--it's the reverse side of the "Invisible Marcy" theme.
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Post by Sue on Feb 23, 2004 12:55:28 GMT -5
Something the head-puppet said when he found out that Angel had been changed into a puppet - about it not being a good thing. That maybe they got more than they bargained for. I have to rewatch, but I got the distinct feeling that they were paralleling W&H and that maybe W&H got more than they bargained for by trying to turn Angel into their puppet. . Excellent parallel!
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Post by Sue on Feb 23, 2004 12:59:35 GMT -5
Reposting my own thoughts from the main thread, since they are so late.
Hmm, well, get the brickbats ready. I enjoyed it just fine the first time, but not nearly to the level most of you seemed to. I don't recall actually laughing out loud, or "snorting" or even necessarily finding myself smiling.
On second watching--well, even less impressed. I've noticed Ben Edlund does try for lots of "zingers"--lol lines, but...well they just didn't resonate with me.
I know the ep discussion moved on ages ago and I'll take most of this over to the discussion thread when I finish catching up here, but, other than immediately after the first showing I haven't had much time to comment.
My first comments were: "Oh, no, Gunn" and "You, go, Fred!"
And, on second viewing, that's still pretty much my reaction.
On second watching:
1. Can see what some of you picked up on re child secual abuse, but didn't really see it that way myself. Boy was touching screen at top, not even specifically touching puppet. Puppet was reveling in influx of life energy. Maybe it had sexual overtones, but I didn't find them exaggerated and am not sure they were deliberate. Maybe.
2. Issues of parent neglect. Not seeing that too much either. Maybe backhanded commentary on a society that makes it necessary for a single mother to go to work without any network for helping out when kid is sick--minimal pay jobs, not enough good, subsidized childcare, no "benefits' where she can take a day off for a sick kid. Didn't feel like the mom was purposefully neglectful. Ditto with mom who called to girl from other room. Even if she had stuck her head in she wouldn't have seen anything untoward at that moment. Plus, TV as babysitter? Well, it was only 7 am so it's not as if the kids could possibly have been watching TV all day.
Do agree that it was quite a commentary on the soul-sucking quality of TV in general, kids' TV specifically.
3. Still think Jonathan Woodard (?) (Knox) is charimatic actor. Something about his expressive face. Do wonder whether he figures in Fred's illness next week. (speculation only). Was all the anti-Knox interaction just setting up Fred's "I'm attracted to Wes speech?" or laying groundwork for future "Knox is evil" plot?
4. A bit lame: they ran every scan W&H had and couldn't identify the signal, but merely muting the TV broke thru the cloaking spell?
5. Random: the old guy in blue overalls pushing the cart down the hall as Angel enters the TV studio looked to me like another riff on Numero Cinco as mailman and Angel when Spike was turned human by the blue fairy.
6. Nina--yeah, liked her better this time. Still don't want an Angel/Nina pairing. I want Angel specifically with any one even less than Spike. Angel needs to find himself and his vision/mission. Nina still feels like an outsider to me.
7. Best scene: Puppet Angel with sword leading the FG. (altho, if you notice Fred throw open the doors as they head out, puppet Angel must have been tightly wedged between her knees and the closed doors before she threw them open.)
8. One thing I did notice on second viewing. I was hoping to give Gunn benefit of doubt. I fanwanked that he went to the archives and actually did the research, etc. But--it sure looks like he's been re-juiced up.
Still--just not finding it that overall funny. Don't feel drawn to watch it again.
Will be interested in seeing overall ratings. Speaking of which I'll plan to update after Wed's ep, so any/every body who wants to update their ratings should think over the past 3 eps and Wed. night's and then post.
Sue
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Post by Sue on Feb 23, 2004 13:08:56 GMT -5
And finally--responding to Nan's excellent review:
Love the Eve/apple analogy.
Hmm, very interesting observation. It is quite true and once again points out that very little in this life is all black or all white: shades of gray. (It also goes to emphasize how incredibly powerful his connection to Buffy must have been for that one act of sex, under the horrid circumstances of the moment, to produce perfect happiness.)
On the other hand--this observation also implies compromise. It's not necessary to go for perfect happiness, one can only expect, even under the best circumstances, really good happiness--not perfect. Yet we are very conflicted about Angel's compromises in other areas of his life, specifically vis a vi his contract with W&H.
Great review Nan, but even understanding the episode better doesn't make me like it any better. (I don't dislike it, I just didn't find it nearly as compelling funny as most of you did). Even re-reading Lola's list of funny lines--they just didn't resonate with me. My loss, I guess.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 23, 2004 16:55:26 GMT -5
And finally--responding to Nan's excellent review: Love the Eve/apple analogy. Hmm, very interesting observation. It is quite true and once again points out that very little in this life is all black or all white: shades of gray. (It also goes to emphasize how incredibly powerful his connection to Buffy must have been for that one act of sex, under the horrid circumstances of the moment, to produce perfect happiness.) On the other hand--this observation also implies compromise. It's not necessary to go for perfect happiness, one can only expect, even under the best circumstances, really good happiness--not perfect. Yet we are very conflicted about Angel's compromises in other areas of his life, specifically vis a vi his contract with W&H. Great review Nan, but even understanding the episode better doesn't make me like it any better. (I don't dislike it, I just didn't find it nearly as compelling funny as most of you did). Even re-reading Lola's list of funny lines--they just didn't resonate with me. My loss, I guess. Well, by me, it wasn't perfect either: not enough Spike. But then, there's never enough Spike. He's like shrimp that way: no such thing as too much shrimp!
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Post by Matthew on Feb 23, 2004 20:28:02 GMT -5
Would you believe...skitters away in a panic? (In the stoical thing, I was thinking of the scene beside her cell. He has all the expression of a rubber boot in that one. Hey! Maybe he's a Cylon! I rather doubt that they'll be making that model... but the above phrase about the skittering sounds like a nice compromise. Panicky activity with little in the way of panicky expression... -M
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Post by Matthew on Feb 23, 2004 20:32:10 GMT -5
So they told us, or those people who knew that story anyways. So in the story one went first, like a herald, and then the big change unravelled? I'm just wondering on parrallels- One big thing the Senior Partners did was all coming undone. What about the other brain affecting thingy- the big memory change? Or am I extending a comparison too far? HO. LY. CRAP. Bec'liz, I'd still adore you even if you didn't watch stargate. But this.. wow. Nicely caught. you are the utility infielder of interesting perceptions. -Matthew, who probably will not use another baseball metaphor this year..
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Post by Matthew on Feb 23, 2004 20:41:13 GMT -5
Yep! This is yet another thread the writers have left hanging! In Destiny, Spike was so powerful he could bend reality; he could beat Angel; he could hold a giant cross, without burning. Now he's so weak he's beaten by a puppet!Angel. He's a hero, but he can't find the help he needs to determine his mission. I am truly concerned for our William. He's now foggier than Angel, who seems to have re-found his mission, thanks to Cordy, Lawson, Nina and the self-esteem song. And Spike? he's more confused than ever. I fear for our boy; I fear for him. I'm glad for Angel, but I fear for Spike. I am also fearing for Gunn. Big time. Mega time. Macrotime. In fact, right now, the only character I'm not totally fearing for is Harmony. Oh, spike will be fine. he didn't LOSE a fight, makd.. he got so distracted by Angel's wee little puppettmanness and the very surpisingly sharp puppet teeth, that he didn't look out for... THAT METAL ELEVATOR WALL!!! (THUNK)and the sound effects of chirping birds. Then he calmly picked up he keys to the new car Angel had him issued. I've had worse fights with my brother over what toppings to put on a pizza. -Matthew
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Post by WinterDreamer on Feb 23, 2004 21:25:04 GMT -5
Oh, spike will be fine. he didn't LOSE a fight, makd.. he got so distracted by Angel's wee little puppettmanness and the very surpisingly sharp puppet teeth, that he didn't look out for... THAT METAL ELEVATOR WALL!!! (THUNK)and the sound effects of chirping birds. Then he calmly picked up he keys to the new car Angel had him issued. I've had worse fights with my brother over what toppings to put on a pizza. -Matthew ITA. Spike was laughing so hard at Angel that his performance in this fight can hardly be considered to be a serious effort. I wouldn't say that he was trying to lose, it's just that he wasn't trying very hard to win. And Angel had all that fury concentrated into that wee little puppet body--he wanted it more.
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makd saying a quick hello
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Post by makd saying a quick hello on Feb 23, 2004 21:45:10 GMT -5
Oh, spike will be fine. he didn't LOSE a fight, makd.. he got so distracted by Angel's wee little puppettmanness and the very surpisingly sharp puppet teeth, that he didn't look out for... THAT METAL ELEVATOR WALL!!! (THUNK)and the sound effects of chirping birds. Then he calmly picked up he keys to the new car Angel had him issued. I've had worse fights with my brother over what toppings to put on a pizza. -Matthew Matthew: Thank you!! You Not having a sibling, I am totally in the dark about sibling politics and play. (though I suspect there are times they are the same.) Your theory regarding the elevator's metal wall makes perfect sense. Good catch!
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Post by RhiCat on Mar 9, 2004 21:35:51 GMT -5
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