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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 29, 2004 21:33:28 GMT -5
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Mar 1, 2004 5:04:09 GMT -5
'Yet it’s Spike who remarkably acts as Angel’s cooler-headed anchor'
So you see Angel not going through with it as a reaction to Spike? Cool. I was giving Angel credit for once, reckoning he decided on his own and turned to Spike to... well, sort of survive the emotional weight of that decision. It's the little headshake, denial of what he's doing, what he cannot do. But I like your way of seeing it too.
Fred incinerate nest. Fred's fire (and gadgets) destroy demons. With all the Fred=strong stuff in this ep I'm pretty hopeful she'll fight her way back. Illyria's eyes all frozen over, but Fred got fire.
rabbits's name- so science geek cute! Neat.
also cool Mikado catch.
I wouldn't say 'casual' about how Wes shot that guy. Cold, but not casual. The difference is in the tension. Very tense and focused Wes.
One of the basic definitions of what people shouldnt do to each other is treating people as things. Wes listens to the women in the office, is more plugged in to the gossip than Angel, but after this little demonstration I'm not sure he sees them so much as people, more like an information resource. It worries me. Once you stop seeing people as people you can do *anything* and barely feel it. Badness. Last time we saw him go psycho and shoot someone he let himself react right after. This time he stayed cold. Very worrying.
Theres a whole Fred fire Wesley ice thing trying to take shape in the back of my brain.
elemental stuff- 'it opened and there was air' you know ages back we were discussing which character was which element? Considering what it does to her, I'm thinking Fred aint air. Of course the cooking thing would say not fire neither. And liquefy would be a watery word, and also not good. Maybe Fred is all earth cave girl? I'm pretty sure thats not what I thought or said last time I thought about this. The characters have changed a lot. But now I think on it I could certainly sell a Fred=Earth interpretation, from the material gadgets thing etc.
Theres Mummy references but I so dont want to go into the generative power = scary thing that AtS has had going on for years. It gets annoying.
Accounts Receivable play poker in the middle of the day? W&H work culture has really relaxed.
Angel talks like he can get resources out of any W&H in the world, when it is made clear that only the LA branch is his. Angel's misunderstanding, Joss getting away with lines because everyone bows to his idea of canon, change or mistake??
Conduit!Gunn sending Gunn flying- I'm pretty sure the Oracles did that to Angel a time or two, when he tried to get pushy with them and ask for stuff. Senior or Higher or whatever, the powerful ones dont like being asked for favours, they like handing the orders out.
Contrast white room, dark cave. Both endless holes.
And something between 'I don't see why it has to be this way' and 'This will do' as first and last lines of the ep. I dont know, but those lines seemed to me to be made as a pair.
nice review, as always. Says new things and makes me think stuff.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 1, 2004 6:53:53 GMT -5
'Yet it’s Spike who remarkably acts as Angel’s cooler-headed anchor' So you see Angel not going through with it as a reaction to Spike? Cool. I was giving Angel credit for once, reckoning he decided on his own and turned to Spike to... well, sort of survive the emotional weight of that decision. It's the little headshake, denial of what he's doing, what he cannot do. But I like your way of seeing it too. Fred incinerate nest. Fred's fire (and gadgets) destroy demons. With all the Fred=strong stuff in this ep I'm pretty hopeful she'll fight her way back. Illyria's eyes all frozen over, but Fred got fire. rabbits's name- so science geek cute! Neat. also cool Mikado catch. I wouldn't say 'casual' about how Wes shot that guy. Cold, but not casual. The difference is in the tension. Very tense and focused Wes. One of the basic definitions of what people shouldnt do to each other is treating people as things. Wes listens to the women in the office, is more plugged in to the gossip than Angel, but after this little demonstration I'm not sure he sees them so much as people, more like an information resource. It worries me. Once you stop seeing people as people you can do *anything* and barely feel it. Badness. Last time we saw him go psycho and shoot someone he let himself react right after. This time he stayed cold. Very worrying. Theres a whole Fred fire Wesley ice thing trying to take shape in the back of my brain. elemental stuff- 'it opened and there was air' you know ages back we were discussing which character was which element? Considering what it does to her, I'm thinking Fred aint air. Of course the cooking thing would say not fire neither. And liquefy would be a watery word, and also not good. Maybe Fred is all earth cave girl? I'm pretty sure thats not what I thought or said last time I thought about this. The characters have changed a lot. But now I think on it I could certainly sell a Fred=Earth interpretation, from the material gadgets thing etc. Theres Mummy references but I so dont want to go into the generative power = scary thing that AtS has had going on for years. It gets annoying. Accounts Receivable play poker in the middle of the day? W&H work culture has really relaxed. Angel talks like he can get resources out of any W&H in the world, when it is made clear that only the LA branch is his. Angel's misunderstanding, Joss getting away with lines because everyone bows to his idea of canon, change or mistake?? Conduit!Gunn sending Gunn flying- I'm pretty sure the Oracles did that to Angel a time or two, when he tried to get pushy with them and ask for stuff. Senior or Higher or whatever, the powerful ones dont like being asked for favours, they like handing the orders out. Contrast white room, dark cave. Both endless holes. And something between 'I don't see why it has to be this way' and 'This will do' as first and last lines of the ep. I dont know, but those lines seemed to me to be made as a pair. nice review, as always. Says new things and makes me think stuff. BeccaElizabeth, I did my review before reading any of your very fine elucidations on body language. That you found so little to disagree with in my interpretation of the episode is, frankly, a considerable relief, given your sharp eye for detail. I had to labor over this one--nothing much intuitive in it for me, I'm afraid--but all the varied observations on the episode show me that it had what "You're Welcome" lacked--depth, layers, complexity.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 1, 2004 8:30:00 GMT -5
Well worth waiting for, Nan!
Really nicely written. It's a small thing, but I loved that you noticed that Angel puts his seat belt on, in the plane, and Spike does not.
Spike sits there, hugging himself instead (very caveman).
And those two creatures of the underground and darkness, up in the air, saving the day (Angel says those words exactly, I think, to Spike: "Let's go save the day." )
That image, and the choice Angel is facing, and Spike saying "Not THIS girl, not THIS day" makes me think of the way he failed to rescue Dawn and lost Buffy - and I remember his words: "Every night I save you."
This one, he's going to have to save not in his dreams, but in reality; not in the night, but in the light of day.
The whole caveman/astronaut thing made me smile by putting me in mind of Phil Hartman, and his Saturday Night Live portrayal of a caveman lawyer.
I too, wondered if Knox was dead. We don't really see whether Gunn goes through with directing that tremendous blow at Knox's head, or the floor near Knox's head.
Also, I sympathize with the time it took you, Nan, to get this done. In doing my BtVS analyses, I sometimes hit eps that, for reasons I don't really fully understand, make me feel like I've hit a wall - and I'm never really satisfied with the end product.
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Post by Sue on Mar 1, 2004 8:59:53 GMT -5
nice review, as always. Says new things and makes me think stuff. Nice segue into my comments. Thats exactly what I was going to tell Nan. After 4 days and 40+ pages of episodes related comments it is a remarkable testament to her (your) reviewing ability that it draws out even more observations. There's (at least one) original Star Trek episode where Kirk is stranded on a barren planet with a "caveman". (Once it's a giant agressive lizard, one a medieval civilization, once it's Roman gladiators). In each case he starts out at a disadvantage because he has no weapons (and, yes he is an astronaut). Of course he wins in the end by using his brain. Is Joss a Gene Roddenberry fan? Gene clearly believed the astronauts could/would win. (Personally, I think it's cavemen all the way.) yeah, and just as quickly devolved (Wes and gun, Gunn and liquid nitro container) when a loved one is threatened. Was this made explicit? I assumed that all he bought was an extension and that future favors would be needed--like getting hooked on a drug. Anybody remember his conversation with the doc? I find myself doing this too. I guess because the demon is in Fred now (somehow the name also sounds feminine), but it did make me think of demons and gender. "Naturally occuring" demons (like Clem and Lorne) clearly seem to have gender, at least in some cases. However demons which take over human hosts (like vampires) presumably are themselves non-gender-specific. I mean, Darla's demon infected Angel, Angel's demon infected Drusilla. The gender being part of the human host, not the demon. Knox did refer to Illyria as "it". Re gay sub-text. Yeah it's probably there and written by the authors to tease and let folk read into it or not as preference dictates. But I still say it's due at least in part to current cultural hyper-awareness. Hope and Crosby snarked their way thru a whole lot of movies (and shared hotel rooms, staterooms on trains, etc.) and nobody's ever read gay subtext into that. (Ha--I'll bet there are "retrospective" studies which do just that, sigh). And one teeny, tiny nit-pick. Not of Nan's review, but a piece of dialogue she quotes which has bothered me from the first time I heard it: "Her organs are cooking. In a day's time, they'll liquify." When I cook stuff it tends to solidify, not liquify. Thanks for all your time and effort, Nan. Kudos!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 1, 2004 9:27:26 GMT -5
Re Sue's question about the permanent brain boost:
Yes, that was made explicit by Dr. Sparrow. No simple extension was ever mentioned or suggested--only the permanent as opposed to the temporary variety. I therefore infer that's what Gunn has bargained for and received.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Mar 1, 2004 10:54:01 GMT -5
Another great review, Nan. You've done a wonderful job of unifying all the elements of this complex episode. Your review has given me lots more to think about. It was well worth the wait. Thank you.
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Post by Cal on Mar 1, 2004 12:50:23 GMT -5
Great review, Nan. Well worth the wait! You've given me so much to think about.
This episode was great, but was very painful to watch. I hope that Fred can come back from the dead, I really do!
Loved all the Spike and Angel interaction. DB and JM work so well together.
Again, wonderful review, Nan!
Cal
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Ajonah
S'cubie
Spikester
Posts: 57
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Post by Ajonah on Mar 1, 2004 12:53:16 GMT -5
If Mr Burns from the Simpsons read your review Nan, he would say: "Excellent"
After rewatching the episode i have to agree with Nan's interpretation that Angel turned back because of Spike. When Angel said "Spike" it felt to me like he was saying "whats going on?" or "what do we do?". Angel was turning to Spike for strength....now that must be a first and a welcome devopment in their relationship.
I found the scene outside the doorway to the Deeper Well seriously dark, with Angel and Spike killing and chopping away at the guardians. Angel even wanted more when he said "...we havnt even started yet..." or something like that. Love sometimes borders on madness, and when we are mad we can be bad. Is that the message Joss is giving with that killing scence and the scence with Wes shooting the lawyer?
I also noted that the Keeper would answer Angel's questions but not Spike's. Then when Spike had enough and bombarded the Keeper with his questions on the bridge the Keeper did nothing, didnt follow through on the threat of killing Spike if he asked questions. Perhaps its the Keeper's own involvment in all of this that he did not want Spike to probe?
The Hole in the world runs all the way through world.....filled with evil things.....so evil runs all the way through the Earth. This is far more chilling then the Hellmouth in Sunnydale. Is Joss trying to say that Evil runs all the way through each of us, albeit dormant....and that if any of it escapes we should do something about it.
This whole season, it seems to me, has been about the Evil within. Fans of the Star Wars universe will recognise whats going on here.....the Fang Gang is moving towards the Dark Side. Gunn it seems has fallen pray to the Dark Side (with his lust for the lawyer image), Wes is there too (as evidenced by his...dare i say...Evil shooting of the poor lawyer) and even Lorne is becomeing Darker.
Will Spike be the Luke Skywalker of the Angelverse and save the Fang Gang or at least Angel?
Another thing....when Lorne, Gunn and Wes find out about their mind rape will they turn against Angel? If so, will Spike be the only person there for Angel as he was the only person there for Buffy when her friends/family turned against her?
I disagree on the point that Gunn has killed Knox. I say this by making a rational guess. Apart from the Keeper, Knox is the one who knows most about whats going on.
I always viewed Fred more as a "sister" then as a romantic interest. She just had those "sister" qualities. Perhaps this is how Angel and Spike see her and why they are so emotional in their own ways at her suffereing.
I noticed Eve said "our" a few times when she was refering to W&H records etc. She clearly feels that she is still part of the W&H and/or Fang Gang team.
The review was imaginative and, like the best of reviews, made me revisit my own conclusions and above all made me think. It could not have been easy when the episode had been disected in detail over on the main board.
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on Mar 1, 2004 13:04:57 GMT -5
What a great analysis Nan! You took a bunch of chaotic thoughts that were just floating around my head and made them make sense! I really loved how you tied the caveman vs. astronaut conversation to the entire story. At first it does seem nonsensical but it quickly becomes apparent that it's very important.
Takes me back to the scene with the beer in Spike's apartment with Gunn and Wes doesn't it? Spike also walked right or the top of the guest chair to achieve that pose. I think that was as much a comment as the pose itself.
I agree with whoever said that the gay subtext was maybe just a tease to viewers...although I think it was more overtly meant to be a familiarity issue. Shows us that while the pair don't necessarily get along, they're used to "working" together. I did like the eyebrow thing when Angel told Spike to hold hands and Spike just raises his eyebrow and holds out his hand with no arguement...
I was wondering about the scene in the airplane. As they talk the light shifts over Angel's face and I was wondering what people thought of that, what their take was? It seemed significant to me (Maybe I've just watched too many Hitchcock movies where absolutely everything means SOMETHING).
I think overall this ep was full of subtleties that maybe not everyone in the world will get. I agree that Spike basically "talked" Angel back from blindly saving Fred without saying much. For it to come from Spike, knowing that Fred had worked so hard to save him earlier in the season was important. I think he very much understands the concept of one sacrifice to save many, he's lived (and died) it.
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Post by makd on Mar 1, 2004 15:24:40 GMT -5
Hi, Nan
This was a really difficult episode, and kudos for doing the review and doing it so well.
Couple of added points:
1. Angel and Spike make their decision on a bridge at the Deeper Well; Gunn faces himself in the White Room, this time surrounded by a bridge-grid. Bridges are symbolic --- transition, crossings, decisions? "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it." Well, Angel had to cross that bridge --- the first set of repercussions caused by the reality-bend/mindwipe he effected when they joined W&H. Spike had to cross that bridge when he realized that "Not THIS girl; not THIS day", was another manifestation of his impulse to speak first, then do - without looking at the ramifications, first. Gunn: he doesn't even think there's a bridge to cross until he get hit in the face under the bridge (so to speak) in the White Room.
2. I was wondering if anyone would pick up on my Plato's Cave comment...
3. The scene on the bridge between Angel and Spike is, IMHO, the best scene they've shared as characters since School Hard. Poignant, bittersweet, trusting, sad, heartbreaking, brave, REAL. Kudos to our guys; they ARE the best.
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Post by Nickim on Mar 1, 2004 15:42:08 GMT -5
Very enjoyable review, Nan. The Lord High Executioner from the Mikado--Gunn the Executor? Wasn't it Three Little Maids From School that he was whistling. I need to rewatch, just been so far behind.
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Post by LadyDi on Mar 1, 2004 16:20:49 GMT -5
Terrific review, Nan, but I've got a few of quibbles... 1) Fred didn't actually meet Angel in L.A., she met him in Pylea. What does it mean when you meet an angel in a hell dimension? 2) Spike's "anywhere" could very easily be Rome or anywhere else Buffy might want to settle. Notice that yet again circumstances prevent Spike's leaving. He cannot abandon Fred and the others during this crisis. 3) Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Otherwise, I agree the cavemen vs. astronaut arguement is pretty huge (as inconsiquential as it may seem).
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 1, 2004 16:44:57 GMT -5
Very enjoyable review, Nan. The Lord High Executioner from the Mikado--Gunn the Executor? Wasn't it Three Little Maids From School that he was whistling. I need to rewatch, just been so far behind. Yes, Nicki--it was "Three Little Maids from School." I just put the other in because I thought it was pertinent and interesting.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 1, 2004 16:47:43 GMT -5
Hi, Nan This was a really difficult episode, and kudos for doing the review and doing it so well. Couple of added points: 1. Angel and Spike make their decision on a bridge at the Deeper Well; Gunn faces himself in the White Room, this time surrounded by a bridge-grid. Bridges are symbolic --- transition, crossings, decisions? "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it." Well, Angel had to cross that bridge --- the first set of repercussions caused by the reality-bend/mindwipe he effected when they joined W&H. Spike had to cross that bridge when he realized that "Not THIS girl; not THIS day", was another manifestation of his impulse to speak first, then do - without looking at the ramifications, first. Gunn: he doesn't even think there's a bridge to cross until he get hit in the face under the bridge (so to speak) in the White Room. 2. I was wondering if anyone would pick up on my Plato's Cave comment...3. The scene on the bridge between Angel and Spike is, IMHO, the best scene they've shared as characters since School Hard. Poignant, bittersweet, trusting, sad, heartbreaking, brave, REAL. Kudos to our guys; they ARE the best. Makd, on the great minds think alike school, I hadn't read your comment about Plato's cave when I wrote the review. Say "cave" and show cave, and people with a certain academic background are gonna come up with Plato like a reflex. I think the connection is more theoretical than actual, as applied to the episode, but it's part of the whole mental context of caves and I thought deserved mention.
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