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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 1, 2004 16:52:20 GMT -5
Terrific review, Nan, but I've got a few of quibbles... 1) Fred didn't actually meet Angel in L.A., she met him in Pylea. What does it mean when you meet an angel in a hell dimension? 2) Spike's "anywhere" could very easily be Rome or anywhere else Buffy might want to settle. Notice that yet again circumstances prevent Spike's leaving. He cannot abandon Fred and the others during this crisis. 3) Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Otherwise, I agree the cavemen vs. astronaut argument is pretty huge (as inconsiquential as it may seem). I quibble with your quibbles, a bit, LadyDi. Certainly Fred's initial meeting with Angel was in Pylea, but in the contexts of her father's remark, I think it's within government specifications: she got to know him in Pylea AND in LA, and better in the latter. Her father said, in effect, "If you FIND an angel in LA, I'll eat the dogs." And again, she didn't FIRST discover Angel in LA, but she joined AI there, and her dad's remark suggests he meant "there ARE no angels in LA"...and there demonstrably ARE. I certainly agree with your points #2 and #3!
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Mar 1, 2004 17:02:41 GMT -5
Yes, that was made explicit by Dr. Sparrow. No simple extension was ever mentioned or suggested--only the permanent as opposed to the temporary variety. I therefore infer that's what Gunn has bargained for and received. Bargained for yes, but received? If I was evil I'd just conclude I now knew how far he would go to get his fix... If you get somewhere under your own power you know the way if you have to do it again. Gunn is totally lost and relying on others to get him there, and he dont even seem to know it.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 1, 2004 17:31:26 GMT -5
Bargained for yes, but received? If I was evil I'd just conclude I now knew how far he would go to get his fix... If you get somewhere under your own power you know the way if you have to do it again. Gunn is totally lost and relying on others to get him there, and he dont even seem to know it. You ARE a suspicious cuss, aren't you, BeccaE? I'm just going with what was presented in the episode--I don't conjecture further. I believe Gunn THINKS he got a permanent brain boost or he wouldn't be so happy, singing in his office, in A Hole in the World. If he knew he were again on borrowed time, he'd be more nervous about when it was gonna run out, I think. However, that's conjectural, admittedly. But on the basis of what the previous eps said and this ep showed, I believe Gunn THINKS he got the permanent boost.
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Post by makd on break on Mar 1, 2004 20:29:21 GMT -5
Courtesy of The Mikado's web site, here are the exact words: (The lines Gunn sings are in bold.)
Three little maids from school are we, Pert as a school-girl well can be, Filled to the brim with girlish glee, Three little maids from school! Everything is a source of fun. Nobody's safe, for we care for none! Life is a joke that's just begun! (Chuckle.) Three little maids from school! Three little maids who, all unwary, Come from a ladies' seminary, Freed from its genius tutelary-- Three little maids from school!
One little maid is a bride, Yum-Yum-- Two little maids in attendance come-- Three little maids is the total sum. Three little maids from school! From three little maids take one away. Two little maids remain, and they-- Won't have to wait very long, they say-- Three little maids from school! Three little maids who, all unwary, Come from a ladies' seminary, Freed from its genius tutelary-- Three little maids from school!
Fred - all unwary - but so are the guys!
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Mar 1, 2004 20:33:09 GMT -5
Nobody's safe, for we care for none! creepy
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Post by Lola m on Mar 1, 2004 21:31:19 GMT -5
Very nice job, Nan - especially for an ep you did not care for at first glance.
Like everyone so far, I love the way you so succinctly lay out the ideas and themes suggested by the astronaut and caveman running gag. But I appreciated even more the second and third sections of your review – the ones relating to that second, quieter, quote: “There’s a hole in the world. Seems like we ought to have known.”
The journey of Fred, the story of her life, flows through this episode. From the moment she leaves home to her final moments with Wesley. Looked at from above, like so many of the camera shots in Angel lately, Fred’s life journey is a line running right through this episode, right through this season – just like the hole running right through the earth.
And so it does make me wonder about both lines. Right now we’re being shown just one end of the hole in the world. But like Spike speculates, what’s on the other end? So maybe we haven’t been shown the other end, the final end of the line of Fred’s journey, either.
Of course, I always overthink everything.
Lola
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Post by Lola m on Mar 1, 2004 21:34:40 GMT -5
I've always thought that lots of G&S is much more creepy, cynical, sarcastic and scary than many folks think "light" opera is. Of course, a lot of it is much more soulfully beautiful and deep than folks think it is, too. Lola
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Post by Matthew on Mar 2, 2004 1:08:14 GMT -5
Nan: brilliant review: very good analysis of the whole, even in the face of your feeling "meh" about the ep. I've not posted till now because I didn't have any small niggling little things to disagree about, as I've had in past eps.
And Sue: thanks for the pointing out of the trekkiness of the argument..
-Matthew
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Post by firestarter on Mar 2, 2004 2:37:27 GMT -5
Fred incinerate nest. Fred's fire (and gadgets) destroy demons. With all the Fred=strong stuff in this ep I'm pretty hopeful she'll fight her way back. Illyria's eyes all frozen over, but Fred got fire. Theres a whole Fred fire Wesley ice thing trying to take shape in the back of my brain. elemental stuff- 'it opened and there was air' you know ages back we were discussing which character was which element? Considering what it does to her, I'm thinking Fred aint air. Of course the cooking thing would say not fire neither. And liquefy would be a watery word, and also not good. Maybe Fred is all earth cave girl? I'm pretty sure thats not what I thought or said last time I thought about this. The characters have changed a lot. But now I think on it I could certainly sell a Fred=Earth interpretation, from the material gadgets thing etc. You know, you got me thinking about the fire/ice thing and I'm beginning to see a connection between Illyria representing water/ice (with her eyes freezing over and her blue coloring) with possibly her foe being fire.
There was so much emphasis on fire in this episode with Fred using fire at the beginning of the ep to stop the creatures that were hatching from the eggs, then later the whole caveman have fire but who would win between them and astronauts argument, followed by Angel and Spike in the cave with the guy who was carrying the torch. Notice that the camera seems to focus on the torch a couple of times and espccially when the torch was put out in the water before they walked out on the bridge.
Also, other references to the elements include Fred breathing in the air from the sarcophagus that was pulled from the earth (also after touching the crystal, which again represents earth), so there we have those two elements as well, in addition to Spike and Angel flying in a plane (representing air again) before heading into the earth in the cave. I'm more detail girl than big picture girl, so maybe someone else can put it all together, but just some more observations I wanted to add.
Also, one more observation: Fred mentioned needing Feigenbaum when she was dying, seemingly refering to her stuffed animal rabbit that was mentioned at the beginning of the episode at her parents' house. At first glance, this seemed like she just wanted her stuffed animal to be of comfort to her. But earlier she did say something about the rabbit being the Master of Chaos, which Nan mentioned is named after Mitchell J. Feigenbaum, a noted chaos theorist. Fire represents chaos and Ilyria being like ice represents order, so again more details that I noticed that may play a part in how things are resolved. Again, maybe someone else would be able to put it all together better.
Anyway, I'm just kind of rambling here with a stream of thoughts. Anyone have thoughts/ideas to add to this?
I really enjoy reading your reviews, Nan, and also checking out everyone's comments.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 2, 2004 8:13:17 GMT -5
Fred incinerate nest. Fred's fire (and gadgets) destroy demons. With all the Fred=strong stuff in this ep I'm pretty hopeful she'll fight her way back. Illyria's eyes all frozen over, but Fred got fire. Theres a whole Fred fire Wesley ice thing trying to take shape in the back of my brain. elemental stuff- 'it opened and there was air' you know ages back we were discussing which character was which element? Considering what it does to her, I'm thinking Fred aint air. Of course the cooking thing would say not fire neither. And liquefy would be a watery word, and also not good. Maybe Fred is all earth cave girl? I'm pretty sure thats not what I thought or said last time I thought about this. The characters have changed a lot. But now I think on it I could certainly sell a Fred=Earth interpretation, from the material gadgets thing etc. You know, you got me thinking about the fire/ice thing and I'm beginning to see a connection between Illyria representing water/ice (with her eyes freezing over and her blue coloring) with possibly her foe being fire.
There was so much emphasis on fire in this episode with Fred using fire at the beginning of the ep to stop the creatures that were hatching from the eggs, then later the whole caveman have fire but who would win between them and astronauts argument, followed by Angel and Spike in the cave with the guy who was carrying the torch. Notice that the camera seems to focus on the torch a couple of times and espccially when the torch was put out in the water before they walked out on the bridge.
Also, other references to the elements include Fred breathing in the air from the sarcophagus that was pulled from the earth (also after touching the crystal, which again represents earth), so there we have those two elements as well, in addition to Spike and Angel flying in a plane (representing air again) before heading into the earth in the cave. I'm more detail girl than big picture girl, so maybe someone else can put it all together, but just some more observations I wanted to add.
Also, one more observation: Fred mentioned needing Feigenbaum when she was dying, seemingly refering to her stuffed animal rabbit that was mentioned at the beginning of the episode at her parents' house. At first glance, this seemed like she just wanted her stuffed animal to be of comfort to her. But earlier she did say something about the rabbit being the Master of Chaos, which Nan mentioned is named after Mitchell J. Feigenbaum, a noted chaos theorist. Fire represents chaos and Ilyria being like ice represents order, so again more details that I noticed that may play a part in how things are resolved. Again, maybe someone else would be able to put it all together better.
Anyway, I'm just kind of rambling here with a stream of thoughts. Anyone have thoughts/ideas to add to this?
I really enjoy reading your reviews, Nan, and also checking out everyone's comments. Interesting thoughts, firestarter. About Feigenbaum - I have this engineering degree, and took tons of math, but it was long ago, so my memory and retention are bad, and I'm not going to do this justice - but his theories have something to do with how much divergence you can get in an end result, when you introduce a small variation at the beginning. Makes me think of what Angel has done - "all" he did was take Connor out of the equation, but look what is happening. That Fred calls for Feigenbaum at the end might represent her wish to go back to find where things went wrong.
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Post by Linda on Mar 2, 2004 8:14:13 GMT -5
Hi Nan,
Thank you for the great review. There's so much there to think about. And thanks for including a summary of Fred's life. I only hope that we have not seen her journey's end.
Your examples of Gunn & Wes darkness in this episode (as well as your noting Angel's "Kill 'em all" attitude in other episodes) got me to thinking about the remaining two of Fred's boys.
In the Eve scene, Lorne went darker than I've ever seen him. He gleefully (IMO) told Eve that she should die. This is Lorne the empath, who used to be able to keep the peace between hostile (& tone deaf) patrons in his old karaoke bar, Caritas. I don't think it was just Fred love. I think it was the creeping W&H darkness.
Spike, on the other hand, struck me as disappointed at Eve's pitiful "Have you heard from him?" As if he could no longer in good conscience threaten her as he had been doing up to that point. Angel and Lorne took up the threatening from there. And Spike actually stepped back from them. His only other contribution to the Eve coersion was his "Hell of a bargaining chip" response to her question about whether they were going to tell the SPs about her. There IS an implied threat there, but not something he initiated (or, I believe, would have followed up on).
And, as you noted in your review, Spike acted as Angel's anchor on the bridge over the Deeper Well. To make the hard, but morally correct decision.
Of all Fred's boys, Spike seems to be the one least affected by the W&H corruption. Perhaps because he was never a part of Angel's deal with W&H. But I think the more significant reason is that he doesn't have the huge, gaping hole in his memory about Connor.
I believe that one of the other things that the Hole in the World represents is Angel's big sin: the mindwipe. How can any of them know themselves and why they are the people they are now without knowing about Connor? How can they fight the corruption of W&H without knowing themselves? "There's a hole in the world. Feels like we ought to have known."
A hole is something that can be filled. In this episode, all the holes are filled with deadly things -- nesting demons, poisonous air & Old Ones. And, as you pointed out, Fred becomes hollow and is filled with Illyria.
<EDIT>(Thanks to Spring for developing my proto thoughts further on this.)
Perhaps the way to win this war is to re-fill the hole in their memories, their selves.
But will they ever forgive Angel? Will he be able to bear the burden of guilt for the mindwipe and his decision to let Fred die?
Fred's boys are in a scary, vulnerable place because of her death. Even if Fred comes back as Fred ... well, there's always consequences. No one will ever be the same.
Arc-less standalone season, indeed.
Thank you again, Nan for your inspiring review.
Linda, who should really stop posting so late at night (or early in the morning) when she wants to include more thoughts that run away when she is trying to pin down these other thoughts.
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on Mar 2, 2004 9:00:31 GMT -5
Hi Nan, Your examples of Gunn & Wes darkness in this episode (as well as your noting Angel's "Kill 'em all" attitude in other episodes) got me to thinking about the remaining two of Fred's boys. In the Eve scene, Lorne went darker than I've ever seen him. He gleefully (IMO) told Eve that she should die. This is Lorne the empath, who used to be able to keep the peace between hostile (& tone deaf) patrons in his old karaoke bar, Caritas. I don't think it was just Fred love. I think it was the creeping W&H darkness. Very interesting. I think you may be right. Although, he was the one that asked if it was ok to pray. I think Lorne is more affected by everything than he likes to let on. I think he's probably still struggling with it all more than anyone else. Everyone else has more or less accepted the deal but I think Lorne is still working it out. Also, as he himself has said, he's not big on self reflection. I think he makes a decision and it's done. Before Cordy came back he was already riding Angel about living in the belly of the beast. So for Spike, I think it's much more clear. I thought they did a wonderful job of acting that out on the bridge. Came across much better than a big arguement would have, if only because it was so different to how they have been acting with each other. Spike has said that very same thing, That's there's always consequences...granted, he was referring to magic at the time, but it applies here as well. INDEED! I know many that aren't seeing the subtle arcs that are running through this season, their loss! Again, great comments by everyone. I love how the discussions evolve after each episode, even if I don't respond (don't always have time) I read and enjoy them all!
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Mar 2, 2004 10:30:35 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts, firestarter. About Feigenbaum - I have this engineering degree, and took tons of math, but it was long ago, so my memory and retention are bad, and I'm not going to do this justice - but his theories have something to do with how much divergence you can get in an end result, when you introduce a small variation at the beginning. Makes me think of what Angel has done - "all" he did was take Connor out of the equation, but look what is happening. That Fred calls for Feigenbaum at the end might represent her wish to go back to find where things went wrong. Oh, that's just... neat, Spring! I can believe Joss throwing in a reference like that, too. The un-Dawning of Connor as butterfly effect, what a wonderful concept. I hope we get to see it play out.
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Post by Karen on Mar 2, 2004 11:24:01 GMT -5
Very interesting. I think you may be right. Although, he was the one that asked if it was ok to pray. I think Lorne is more affected by everything than he likes to let on. I think he's probably still struggling with it all more than anyone else. Everyone else has more or less accepted the deal but I think Lorne is still working it out. To me, it may seem that Lorne is still working it out, but I think that his asking Angel if it was ok to pray only served to stress the fact that he's lost a part of himself. Do demons pray? Wasn't that part of the reason Lorne left Pylea - because of his world being controlled by their religious leaders? I think that Lorne was sucked into W&H from day 1. To me, he's just as effected by the Connor mindwipe as the rest of them. ITA! Great review, Nan. I can't wait to see how they'll settle the dispute about the caveman vs. astronaut. We've been shown that when Spike and Angel work together, things get done. Spike = caveman; Angel = Astronaut? Maybe it's going to be that blending that will win the day for them. I think you need both your emotions and clear-headedness to make the right decisions.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Mar 2, 2004 12:54:43 GMT -5
Thought I'd better comment before I forgot my own thoughts in reading those of others. In any case, Nan, your struggles with this episode have given us a review which is even more enlightening than usual, and I thank you.
About caveman/astronaut and the scene on the bridge: after reading this review the first time, and in light also of be's body language insights, it's interesting to observe Spike making the same series of gesture and facial expressions which led, in "Afterlife" to punching the wall of his crypt; here, he controls the impulse which would have sent the frail bridge crashing, and the energy goes to a poetic analysis of the nature of the hole in the world, instead of scraped knuckles and destruction.
I'm thinking that the Hole in the World and the White Room, while functionally similar, have some very important differences; the hole is surrounded by a solid sphere, while the White Room is almost a bubble universe; what's left when it's gone is the howling abyss. I know that difference can be expressed in terms of fractal analysis, but not by me, at least not today.
Julia, duty calls
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