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Post by deborah on Mar 2, 2004 15:09:23 GMT -5
Nan, I read you review at bed-time last night and then filed it in my (mostly fanfic) file cabinet. But this morning it was still on my mind and I had to pull it out again and re-read most of it before I could get myself out the door to work.
More often than not, with this review being no exception, I am just bowled over by the symbols, connections and conculsions you and so many other S'cubies can glean from these episodes. For example, I had seen the caveman vs the astronaut debate as representing Spike, with his penchant for fists & fangs vs Angel, with his preference for cool, methodical, premeditated action. But you enlightened me by demonstrating that each has aspects of both the caveman and the astronaut inside them, despite their stated preference and identification with one over the other.
That was just the starting point. It was a fascinating review but my foggy, sleepy mind can't recall it in any detail or discuss it with any degree of competency. Just to say, thanks for writing it. It helped broaden my understanding, while I was reading it anyway. I'll probably have to re-read it once or twice more before it will stick.
deborah
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Mar 2, 2004 21:17:53 GMT -5
Lorne - To me, he's just as effected by the Connor mindwipe as the rest of them. I think what was taken from Lorne was especially precious, partly because it looked so mundane. They trusted him to look after the baby. Him, the green demon from another dimension, so automatically trusted they forgot to ask if he didn't want to babysit! (the lullaby about not going to the ballet... hilarious...) How would that have affected how he feels about fitting in to this world, and how useful he can be? Without the Connor memories all he has left is the showbiz and the fighting, and he knows he cant do the fighting parts. So, just the show. The depth of connection that comes from looking after the baby, he wouldnt remember that anymore. All surface now, no depth. No remembering that they really do trust and value him, even if in a traditionally feminine role (and I still vaguely wonder if Lorne is male, in a human relevant sense. I mean he seems to identify male. Camp queen, but male. But is that even relevant for his species??). So I'm pretty sure Lorne was affected by the mindwipe- a lot of what was precious got taken away, and left him in the shallow end. All that was left was the host. Which in his world is just one more thing to lay your eggs in. Not good. Although, mothering, host, kinda fits. Okay, probably not too relevant to this particular episode, but has been bugging me.
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Post by Sara on Mar 2, 2004 21:28:05 GMT -5
Nan, This is something I should have posted long before now, as I've been reading your tremendous reviews since this beginning of this season. I always enjoy your perspective, appreciate the time and thought you put into your discussion of the episode, and never finish a review without at least one new insight into the episode in question. This review was no exception. Thank you for all your hard work. I also wanted to say what a pleasure coming to this board has been after "A Hole in the World" aired--most boards I stopped by were pretty negative, particularly toward the prospect of Fred's return. It been really nice to read postings by people who not only want Fred to return, but seem to believe she will as well. You helped me feel much less discouraged. Finally, one thing I don't recall being noted (and forgive me if it was--I'm still pretty wonky from staying up Oscar night) is that Illyria is the name of the country where Viola washes ashore in Shakespeare's "Twelfth Night." As it is one of the plays in which people assume others' identities and Joss frequently hosts Shakespeare readings with cast members, I can't believe it's merely a coincidence. And since everyone assumes their rightful identities at the end of the play, I'm going to hope Joss was trying to tell us things will turn out okay for our Fred.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Mar 2, 2004 21:33:20 GMT -5
shakespeare ref the second- 'get a balcony' has been suggested it was probably a Romeo&Juliet thing where she wasnt actually dead when it looked like she was of course that one ends rather... unfortunately...
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Post by Sue on Mar 2, 2004 23:30:23 GMT -5
Nan, This is something I should have posted long before now, as I've been reading your tremendous reviews since this beginning of this season. I always enjoy your perspective, appreciate the time and thought you put into your discussion of the episode, and never finish a review without at least one new insight into the episode in question. This review was no exception. Thank you for all your hard work. I also wanted to say what a pleasure coming to this board has been after "A Hole in the World" aired--most boards I stopped by were pretty negative, particularly toward the prospect of Fred's return. It been really nice to read postings by people who not only want Fred to return, but seem to believe she will as well. You helped me feel much less discouraged. Finally, one thing I don't recall being noted (and forgive me if it was--I'm still pretty wonky from staying up Oscar night) is that Illyria is the name of the country where Viola washes ashore in Shakespeare's "Twelfth Night." As it is one of the plays in which people assume others' identities and Joss frequently hosts Shakespeare readings with cast members, I can't believe it's merely a coincidence. And since everyone assumes their rightful identities at the end of the play, I'm going to hope Joss was trying to tell us things will turn out okay for our Fred. Hello again Yorick. I think someone on the Main thread may have noted the Shakespeare reference (after I'd said I'd heard the name in the Vorkosigan books), but didn't mention the stuff about assuming rightful identities as well. Thanks. Also, have you mainly been lurking here on the review thread or have you followed the episode discussions on the main thread as well. It was Part 123 (usually the episode number is in the title but it must have been accidentally left out.) Cause there was lots and lots and lots of "we just know Fred's gonna come back" talk on that thread as well. Likewise, as it gets near 9 PM EST tomorrow night this part will close and a new part will open mainly for episode 5.16 posting (altho there is no off-topic rule). Post-episode posting commences as soon as the episode ends at 10 PM EST and will go hot and heavy thru the day tomorrow if you can drop in there (and then). Good to have you here and contributing.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 3, 2004 0:03:40 GMT -5
Hello again Yorick. I think someone on the Main thread may have noted the Shakespeare reference (after I'd said I'd heard the name in the Vorkosigan books), but didn't mention the stuff about assuming rightful identities as well. Thanks. Also, have you mainly been lurking here on the review thread or have you followed the episode discussions on the main thread as well. It was Part 123 (usually the episode number is in the title but it must have been accidentally left out.) Cause there was lots and lots and lots of "we just know Fred's gonna come back" talk on that thread as well. Likewise, as it gets near 9 PM EST tomorrow night this part will close and a new part will open mainly for episode 5.16 posting (altho there is no off-topic rule). Post-episode posting commences as soon as the episode ends at 10 PM EST and will go hot and heavy thru the day tomorrow if you can drop in there (and then). Good to have you here and contributing. I too welcome you, Yorick, though we're only beginning to know you, and there's no "alas." Unless I've misunderstood her, Sue means that the discussion of (alas!--I got one in!) the last new episode for awhile opens at 10 p.m. ET Wednesday (no matter where you are)--in other words, immediately following the airing of the episode-- and normally continues through the following day (Thursday). If you have to factor in the laden weight of an African swallow, of course, this changes and all bets are off. ;D
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Post by Rachael on Mar 3, 2004 0:57:51 GMT -5
Nan, This is something I should have posted long before now, as I've been reading your tremendous reviews since this beginning of this season. I always enjoy your perspective, appreciate the time and thought you put into your discussion of the episode, and never finish a review without at least one new insight into the episode in question. This review was no exception. Thank you for all your hard work. I also wanted to say what a pleasure coming to this board has been after "A Hole in the World" aired-- most boards I stopped by were pretty negative, particularly toward the prospect of Fred's return. It been really nice to read postings by people who not only want Fred to return, but seem to believe she will as well. You helped me feel much less discouraged. Finally, one thing I don't recall being noted (and forgive me if it was--I'm still pretty wonky from staying up Oscar night) is that Illyria is the name of the country where Viola washes ashore in Shakespeare's "Twelfth Night." As it is one of the plays in which people assume others' identities and Joss frequently hosts Shakespeare readings with cast members, I can't believe it's merely a coincidence. And since everyone assumes their rightful identities at the end of the play, I'm going to hope Joss was trying to tell us things will turn out okay for our Fred. What? Which boards? Which posters? Point me in the right direction and I will wreak fiery vengeance upon them! Mostly kidding - but REALLY. Of course, I'm a little biased, and take it a tad personally. . . . I forgot to introduce myself - I'm Rachael. I identify just a bit (ahem) with Fred. And the first thing I did when I got to this board was establish myself the Defender of Fred. Although at first it was mostly defending her shape. But. . .seriously. . .I think your picking up on the Shakespeare reference was spot on, in that it can't possibly be an accident. And I very much hope you're right, and that Fred gets to be Fred again. But, as be mentioned, the Romeo and Juliet reference freaks me out just a little bit - 'cause it implies that we lose both Fred and Wes. (Or, to twist it, Fred and Gunn?) Think happy thoughts. Think happy thoughts. Tomorrow's gonna be hard for me. Feels wrong somehow. Come by the Main board and hang out with us after the show tomorrow. (Or, what the heck, come by before the show. Only, don't let our, ahem, Wednesday enthusiasm frighten you. )
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Post by Sara on Mar 3, 2004 10:03:42 GMT -5
Wow--I don't think I've ever received such a nice welcome to a new board. Thank you all so much. To answer Sue's question--mostly I've been lurking (a word that often makes me feel like some kind of stalker ) here and in the discussion after Spring's review. I haven't had much of a chance to explore elsewhere so far, but I'll definitely check out the other threads you've pointed me to. I feel like I'm finally among my people. ;D Rachel: I wouldn't want to name names or anything... (ahem *TWoP*) I know what you mean about tonight potentially being a little weird, but I'm also looking forward to seeing Amy Acker get a chance to show her stuff--somehow I suspect she'll pull off a big bad a little better than Charisma did (bless her). It still creeps me out whenever I see a rerun of Fred possessed by that water-sucking slug. I'm looking forward to participating in tomorrow's episode discussions, but as I share an office my daytime internet surfing will be somewhat hampered by virtue of my monitor being in fairly plain view. Why they expect me to work when I've got so many other important things to do with my time I'll never understand... Thanks again for being so welcoming all. Y
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Mar 3, 2004 11:30:45 GMT -5
Welcome Yorick, and don't take Twop too seriously; they're a tight little crazy world all their own, and do not represent the fandom but rather a subset of the paranoid and ill-informed. YMMV; IMHO ;D. Anyway, a bit of extra Spikeage, and another to those who aaccuse JM of being a scenerivourous mammal: watch his face in the "Preferably in Outer Mongolia" scene- when he says "I don't have anywhere else to go" he looks up and to the left, which is a give-away for a lie; but then his glance is transfixed by the daylight scene outside the windows: the creature of the night being held by the view of the day, as we've seen in every episode of AtS this season. Julia
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Post by Sue on Mar 3, 2004 11:42:37 GMT -5
Wow--I don't think I've ever received such a nice welcome to a new board. Thank you all so much. To answer Sue's question--mostly I've been lurking (a word that often makes me feel like some kind of stalker ) here and in the discussion after Spring's review. I haven't had much of a chance to explore elsewhere so far, but I'll definitely check out the other threads you've pointed me to. I feel like I'm finally among my people. ;D Rachel: I wouldn't want to name names or anything... (ahem *TWoP*) I know what you mean about tonight potentially being a little weird, but I'm also looking forward to seeing Amy Acker get a chance to show her stuff--somehow I suspect she'll pull off a big bad a little better than Charisma did (bless her). It still creeps me out whenever I see a rerun of Fred possessed by that water-sucking slug. I'm looking forward to participating in tomorrow's episode discussions, but as I share an office my daytime internet surfing will be somewhat hampered by virtue of my monitor being in fairly plain view. Why they expect me to work when I've got so many other important things to do with my time I'll never understand...Thanks again for being so welcoming all. Y Yesterday we were wondering what our "motto" should be. Given the number of S'cubies that have expressed this exact sentiment it must at least be our unofficial motto. And--depending on how late you can stay up there's always after ep posting. By the time you get home Thursday, there will be 20 pages! If you can't catch up on reading them all just jump in at the end.
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Post by Sunset on Mar 3, 2004 11:49:30 GMT -5
Hi, Nan, I've been lurking here for most of the season and I just wanted to tell you how much I've been enjoying your reviews and the comments by the other Scubie's. I haven't commented before and probably won't much in the future because I have very limited acces to the internet.
Anyway, I've really enjoyed how ya'll break down the episode. You offer such insight that really highten my enjoyment of the show.
I would like to add one little observation of mine, that I haven't seen any one else mention, yet. I thought that in the scene where Lorne and Fred sing "You are my sunshine" was rather appropriate. On the surface, it seems to be just a really sweet love song, but if you've ever heard all the verses you'll see that it is a much darker song than it appears to be.
The other night dear, as I lay sleeping I dreamed I held you in my arms When I awoke, dear, I was mistaken So I hung my head and I cried.
You are my sunshine, my only sunshine You make me happy when skies are gray You'll never know dear, how much I love you Please don't take my sunshine away
I'll always love you and make you happy, If you will only say the same. But if you leave me to love another, You'll regret it all some day:
You are my sunshine, my only sunshine You make me happy when skies are gray You'll never know dear, how much I love you Please don't take my sunshine away
You told me once, dear, you really loved me And no one else could come between. But now you've left me and love another; You have shattered all my dreams:
You are my sunshine, my only sunshine You make me happy when skies are gray You'll never know dear, how much I love you Please don't take my sunshine away
I find the first verse particularly moving when you think of it in context of the last scene with Wes holding Fred's dead body. He is holding her body but not really holding Fred because she is dead.
I hope I haven't completely bored ya'll with my little observation, and please excuse me if some one has mentioned it already.
Once again, you do a wonderful job Nan.
~Sunset
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Post by Nickim on Mar 3, 2004 13:26:40 GMT -5
Hi, Nan, I've been lurking here for most of the season and I just wanted to tell you how much I've been enjoying your reviews and the comments by the other Scubie's. I haven't commented before and probably won't much in the future because I have very limited acces to the internet. Anyway, I've really enjoyed how ya'll break down the episode. You offer such insight that really highten my enjoyment of the show. I would like to add one little observation of mine, that I haven't seen any one else mention, yet. I thought that in the scene where Lorne and Fred sing "You are my sunshine" was rather appropriate. On the surface, it seems to be just a really sweet love song, but if you've ever heard all the verses you'll see that it is a much darker song than it appears to be. The other night dear, as I lay sleeping I dreamed I held you in my arms When I awoke, dear, I was mistaken So I hung my head and I cried. You are my sunshine, my only sunshine You make me happy when skies are gray You'll never know dear, how much I love you Please don't take my sunshine away I'll always love you and make you happy, If you will only say the same. But if you leave me to love another, You'll regret it all some day: You are my sunshine, my only sunshine You make me happy when skies are gray You'll never know dear, how much I love you Please don't take my sunshine away You told me once, dear, you really loved me And no one else could come between. But now you've left me and love another; You have shattered all my dreams: You are my sunshine, my only sunshine You make me happy when skies are gray You'll never know dear, how much I love you Please don't take my sunshine away I find the first verse particularly moving when you think of it in context of the last scene with Wes holding Fred's dead body. He is holding her body but not really holding Fred because she is dead. I hope I haven't completely bored ya'll with my little observation, and please excuse me if some one has mentioned it already. Once again, you do a wonderful job Nan. ~Sunset Welcome Sunset & Yorick. Interesting lyrics in that song. Gunn's view of Fred & Wes? Wes's view if Fred gets her memorys back? Could go several ways.
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Post by Cal on Mar 3, 2004 13:58:06 GMT -5
Welcome Sunset & Yorick. Interesting lyrics in that song. Gunn's view of Fred & Wes? Wes's view if Fred gets her memorys back? Could go several ways. Hi Yorick and Sunset. Welcome to the S3! Very interesting posts. I hope you will both come and join us over on the main board. Cal
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Post by Rachael on Mar 3, 2004 14:34:34 GMT -5
Wow--I don't think I've ever received such a nice welcome to a new board. Thank you all so much. To answer Sue's question--mostly I've been lurking (a word that often makes me feel like some kind of stalker ) here and in the discussion after Spring's review. I haven't had much of a chance to explore elsewhere so far, but I'll definitely check out the other threads you've pointed me to. I feel like I'm finally among my people. ;D Rachel: I wouldn't want to name names or anything... (ahem *TWoP*) I know what you mean about tonight potentially being a little weird, but I'm also looking forward to seeing Amy Acker get a chance to show her stuff--somehow I suspect she'll pull off a big bad a little better than Charisma did (bless her). It still creeps me out whenever I see a rerun of Fred possessed by that water-sucking slug. I'm looking forward to participating in tomorrow's episode discussions, but as I share an office my daytime internet surfing will be somewhat hampered by virtue of my monitor being in fairly plain view. Why they expect me to work when I've got so many other important things to do with my time I'll never understand... Thanks again for being so welcoming all. Y Yup; as I mentioned on the Main Board, I'm hanging around for two reasons: to see that they do as instructed and resurrect Fred, and to watch AA play evil again. Real, hellgoddess evil. I think it'll be fun.
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Post by Karen on Mar 3, 2004 14:38:21 GMT -5
Hi Yorick and Sunset. Welcome to the S3! Very interesting posts. I hope you will both come and join us over on the main board. Cal ITA with Cal's welcome, Yorick and Sunset! I never knew all the words to "You are my Sunshine" - but the music to it always made me sad for some reason - now I know! Yorick - If everyone assumes their rightful identities, what does that do to Angel? I also share in your hope that Fred will be back - stronger than ever. Girl power!
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