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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 6, 2004 18:34:33 GMT -5
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Post by Rachael on Mar 7, 2004 20:50:27 GMT -5
Lots of really wonderful stuff here, Nan.
To start:
Harmony (to Wes): The girl of your dreams loved you. That’s more than most people ever get. Wes (softly): I know. But it isn’t enough.
Before Wes even spoke his line, I knew what it would be. I said it myself before he did. "It isn't enough."
That's the feeling I keep coming back to - there's been some good, some happy moments, but it isn't enough.
And so, when Illyria asked the same question at the end of the episode, of Wes - "Is it enough?"
He didn't answer her. So, has he changed his mind, and thinks maybe it is enough, or is he still where he was at the beginning of the episode?
I don't want him to think it's enough. Because it's not. Even if it's all there is, I want them to fight it. I want Wes to rage against the dying of the light. If for no other reason than that watching him angry is easier than watching him hurt.
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Post by Rachael on Mar 7, 2004 20:56:53 GMT -5
I am duly chastised. It's only because it's so hard to have hope and then lose it again that I'm trying not to hope. We've lost Fred twice, now - once when she died, and again when her soul was presented as irretrievably gone. Might all be a lie - AA is still part of the cast, after all - but the hope that Wesley speaks of can be part of what makes the world a harder place to live in. Going now. Back later to see what other people have to say.
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Ajonah
S'cubie
Spikester
Posts: 57
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Post by Ajonah on Mar 7, 2004 20:57:39 GMT -5
Nan another excellent piece of work....i loved your review. Time producing it was well spent. Thanks.
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DK
Junior S'cubie
Posts: 13
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Post by DK on Mar 7, 2004 21:06:03 GMT -5
Brilliant review, as always.
Knox told Gunn that it was supposed to teleport to the base of its power (which is now L.A.) but that since the continents have drifted, it ended up somewhere else.
While I was watching the ep. I found Illyria's choice of words a little odd... connecting those words to Fred's lingering memories, again, brilliant.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Mar 7, 2004 21:40:44 GMT -5
So earlier in the week I said that Hole in the World was your finest review, and now I have to update my rating... Nan, this was just beautiful. It read like poetry - put a lump in my throat and gave me hope.
"Spike, the gregarious, sits like a cat in the middle of oblivious activity, plunked down on the stars where everybody has to walk around him, like a stone in a stream, dividing the water’s course;"
oh wow...
Thank you for the information on Feigenbaum, and how one act changes everything. "The Road Not Taken" has been my favorite poem most of my life, it's very meaningful to me now especially.
Your words about Lorne and the special signifcance of Fred to him makes it even more meaningful when he leaves the office, unable to help, and says '"I got nothing."
(personal note: see the double quotes and the period inside?)
...Gunn's secret is out. Angel's lie of omission will soon be out. But there is hope, and transformaton.
"we must remember that one kind of shell is a chrysalis—an intermediate stage, covering and protection for a transformation, from which something utterly different but more truly itself will emerge. No longer a caterpillar but a butterfly whose wings can flap up a storm no one would ever have looked for."
wow. Thank you Nan.
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Post by makd guesting on Mar 7, 2004 21:48:16 GMT -5
Hi, Nan
I really should log in; I just realized that I've probably posted at least 500 messages, unlogged in, in the last few months...Good thing I'm not status driven! ;D
On topic:
another terrific review, Nan; thank you. As always, your review highlighted elements of the episode we may have missed.
I once again (I've alluded to the 'false prophecy' several times in the last few weeks or so.) refer to Sirk's translation of the false prophecy, wherein he referred to the following:
" There is a newly translated group of verses which may perhaps prove relevant. The root of the tree will split in 2. And each thing will seek nourishment from the buried river. Storm unleashed. The balance will falter until the vampire with a soul drinks from the cup of perpetual torment.
(courtesy, BuffyVerse Dialogue Data Base - vrya.net)
In your review, you indicate that: A]"Feigenbaum is the patron saint of bifurcation—of what was one course dividing into two. The road taken, and the road unchosen. The sheep and the goats, at Judgment Day. The crucial choice, the flap of a butterfly’s wings that somehow produces a devastating storm in South America. That moment is what we’re seeing in this episode."
I wonder, again: Was the "false" prophecy in Destiny truly "false"?
1. Spike has endured the binding of limbs 2. Angel is being crushed by the weight of his decision to join W&H, as if the weight of the world is on him. 3. The Master of Chaos (Feigenbaum) provides a clue - on bifurcation - and "the root of the tree splits in two". Is the tree the combined souls of our souled vampires? Is the split tree the lineage of Angel(us), Spike, Connor?
I am still working this out; still thinking about it. This is the puzzle for the series....
Damn The WB! The series clearly has at least another 25 episodes of stories.....
But, once again, great job! Thanks, Nan - you've given us plenty to re-think about.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 7, 2004 22:05:46 GMT -5
On the principle that every review must have some uber-embarrassing oops, to indicate the humility and imperfection of its writer, I find an utter incoherence inexplicably attached to the third bullet point under Miscellaneous. I have asked Vlad to remove the excrescence.
DK, I don't buy the continents drifting explanation. That would have landed it someplace else, sure--but in customs? If W&H functionaries found it, why wouldn't they have seen it teleported on its way? And if not W&H functionaries, why would it be blandly entrusted to the equivalent of the mail, to be forwarded to...its destination--which they would know HOW? It's a complication needed only to involve Gunn, I think--either by the formers of the plan (presumably the Senior Partners) or by the writers. Not good enough.
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Post by Rachael on Mar 7, 2004 22:11:20 GMT -5
On the principle that every review must have some uber-embarrassing oops, to indicate the humility and imperfection of its writer, I find an utter incoherence inexplicably attached to the third bullet point under Miscellaneous. I have asked Vlad to remove the excrescence. DK, I don't buy the continents drifting explanation. That would have landed it someplace else, sure--but in customs? If W&H functionaries found it, why wouldn't they have seen it teleported on its way? And if not W&H functionaries, why would it be blandly entrusted to the equivalent of the mail, to be forwarded to...its destination--which they would know HOW? It's a complication needed only to involve Gunn, I think--either by the formers of the plan (presumably the Senior Partners) or by the writers. Not good enough. It wasn't utterly incoherent; I managed to make sense of it. (And then got so caught up in the rest of the review that I forgot to report it.) And eetah on the "Customs" thing - contrived much?
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 7, 2004 23:21:08 GMT -5
Nan another excellent piece of work....i loved your review. Time producing it was well spent. Thanks. Beautifully done, Nan. My favorite quote: "Until that primal lie has been revealed and somehow undone, nothing can be right in the present. Until they are rejoined past that fundamental diversion, none of our characters will find the path to home and their true selves." Yes, yes, and yes. I am so hoping that we will see this come to pass, and it wasn't scheduled for a Season 6 that may never happen. Nan - the amount of love and effort you put into your reviews shows right through. Thanks so much for all you do for this site.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Mar 8, 2004 0:12:41 GMT -5
gems on the sarcophagus- my first impression, that it represented the FG, even stronger now- the gem that represented Fred was bashed until it broke off. Bye bye Fred. But it turned out to be the connection between the FG and Illyria, and that connection gives them power over her, and makes the whole stronger. Fred gem.
where I live = home? home usually more than that. And he doesnt say belong, just live. Not sure he's all the way home yet.
Spike=Chaos and choice. Oh yes.
Gunn- wily, well informed and articulate used to be true in the particular region he lived, with his crew in his neighbourhood. He knew all that went on there, every player, every place to look. And it was all natural to him, and well earned. He had his own destiny going on down there, and it saved a whole lot of lives. Then he hooked up with Angel, decided to tag along on his mission, and lost all that connection. From being the guy with the crew he went to having sometimes only two friends. Probably closer friends than he'd had before, because none of the others ever got to see his fear, but still, only two people in his world. At most the half dozen of them together instead of the many many he ran before. He said he was with Angel and not his crew because they 'lost the mission'. Well yeah, he *was* the mission, he defined it for them, led them in it- then he dumped them. Funny how they lost it around then. He says he never knew where he fit. Odd. He fit right in the heart of his old crew. I guess his sister was his heart though, so losing her, all went to ashes. The lawyer part was a shell, a borrowed one like a hermit crab. Now it all cracked. He could grow his own version. But I dont think he can go back to his old homes, all outgrown now. Sometimes dumb growth, but growth. He'd have to start over. I like Gunn, I like him as part of the FG, but he lost a whole lot giving up his crew and his neighbourhood- his home. I think Gunn could gain a whole lot by going home again. All that law knowledge could go to good use, and the darkworlds knowledge was always useful. But if home is where the heart is Gunn got no home at all no more.
Champion is not a leader. A Champion in some contexts is the one who fights *instead* of a leader, so the leader can be the brain and the Champion can spend all their time concentrating on fighting. Specialised jobs so things go smoother. Nowadays its all about the star players and not about the coach, the actor not the writer, so people are drawn to Angel, the one who seems to be doing something. But he has never been the leader, the one who set the direction, unless he was gone all obsessive about something, and that never works out well.
Lorne has gone from being that spotlight person to being their agent. Which he did a little of before, but its like hes managed to remove himself from the picture. Nothing left for him in it. Home for him means somewhere he can sing- something we havent seen him do for a long while. He needs the music, not just the talk. Pylea had all the talk and dancing but no music, and it was hell to him. Home is music then.
Fred was a physicist but got killed by biology. numbers arent life and dont usually need the hazard suits. Hmmm, infection was the problem way back in the first ep of the season too. Theres been a lot of biology talk. Not so much of physics. Unfamiliar hazards? Science aint just SCIENCE! all one thing.
Qwa'Ha Xahn was defined by Knox as 'priest, servant, guide in this world', as about worship. Illyria didn't seem that impressed with worship. But she sought out a guide in this world. Maybe its meant to be about connection?
Wes has been an exile for a lot of years now. He built a new home with the FG. W&H is becoming his empire, biggest library possible all for his use. Without Fred, not home. Book man, gun guy, back to being a Watcher again? But different than before, admitting right from the start he isnt the best person, not just assuming he has the right to give orders because lack of moral high ground here. Old self, new self, start again different- in a role he rejected when his 'father' offered it. Not a comfy place, not the home he wanted, going back to what he was. I worry about him a lot. But the thing is this time his role is because there is a connection between them, something to draw them together, and that is very different than first time around. Interpreting the human world for a powerful woman, instead of interpreting the demon world as a Watcher does. Maybe draw him back into that human world, as he hasnt been pretty much ever?
says 'find something worthy'. Wes and Knox use a lot of the same words, about the same woman even. Its uncomfortable. Especially with Wes in basically the same role to her at the end as Knox had wanted to be. It makes me worry.
And yes, he'll go ballistic when the lie is discovered. Quite rightly so- how off balance must he have been with so much of himself carved away? Angel started hollowing him out. Big hole in his world. Just worse now. Also Wesley trusted Angel, and Angel chose to let Fred die. If Wes knew everything Angel had done to him, would he have been so trusting? No. So it doubles up the betrayal now. He doesnt have the right data, he doesnt know Angel. Pretty crucial.
FG integrated into W&H would be a mistake. W&H integrated into the FG would be a triumph.
Consequences- Gunn's speech about you never know when its the crucial moment, so you always act as if it is. Yup, always consequences. But you can never figure what they are so you have to do your best by that one moment you are in. Thats what Chaos tells me.
Chrysalis. Yes. Butterfly effect.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Mar 8, 2004 0:20:30 GMT -5
the hope that Wesley speaks of can be part of what makes the world a harder place to live in. WESLEY I'm sorry, Angel, but nothing matters more. Hope: It's the only thing that will sustain you, that will keep you from ending up like Number 5. Wes says hope of the good & important. Hope he still believes that.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Mar 8, 2004 0:21:17 GMT -5
DK, I don't buy the continents drifting explanation. That would have landed it someplace else, sure--but in customs? If W&H functionaries found it, why wouldn't they have seen it teleported on its way? And if not W&H functionaries, why would it be blandly entrusted to the equivalent of the mail, to be forwarded to...its destination--which they would know HOW? It's a complication needed only to involve Gunn, I think--either by the formers of the plan (presumably the Senior Partners) or by the writers. Not good enough. The Senior Partners and Wolfram&Hart were NOT the ones who ran this plan, who brought Illyria back, who got her into the building. That was Illyria's worshippers, who are very few. If they dont include someone who can teleport, if the sarc ended up in a different country, then yes it would get stuck at customs. Trying to get anything into the country can do that. Dont matter if you've trusted it to the mail or are escorting it yourself. Sure its a writer contrivance, but it works for me.
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Post by Rachael on Mar 8, 2004 0:22:32 GMT -5
gems on the sarcophagus- my first impression, that it represented the FG, even stronger now- the gem that represented Fred was bashed until it broke off. Bye bye Fred. But it turned out to be the connection between the FG and Illyria, and that connection gives them power over her, and makes the whole stronger. Fred gem. I must think more about that. Depends on what kind of physics you do - experimental physicists deal with all sorts of very hazardous materials. Just sayin'. Indeed. Although Fred did seem to have knowledge that spanned other sciences, as well. Brainy girl, her. I wouldn't think to put a sarcophagus in quarantine and not touch it, myself. But if I was dealing with demony sarcophagi, maybe. And I just realized, trying to spell sarcophagus - the roots of that word cause it's literal definition to be: flesh-eating stone. Huh.
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Post by LostSoul on Mar 8, 2004 0:28:39 GMT -5
Being a lurker here for a while, I couldn’t help admiring insightful review & responses seen on this board. Thanks for the good work. Here is my first post and my random babbling on the episode.
I agree that the sarcophogus stuck in custom seems weird but that idea grows on me. The teleportation from the Deeper Well was set in motion million years ago and as Knox says, there weren’t many followers of Illyria now. With the clueless Knox as the high priest, it wouldn’t be far-fetched to assume no Illyria’s follower is powerful enough to teleport it to W&H and someone screwed up resulting in the sarcophogus stuck in the custom. It actually reinforce the helplessness of Illyria -- her old army is gone and his present followers are idiots. Illyria is not a Senior Partner and I wouldn’t be surprised if W&H is the one destroying her temple & army. My gut feeling is W&H rise to power because the Old Ones are out of the picture and they are naturally against Jasmine or Illyria returning to share their glory. Illyria would probably team up with Angel to revenge on W&H.
Illyria & Fred vs Jasmine & Cordelia Is Fred dead or is she reborn as ‘Illyria’, like phoenix risen from ashes ? This is where I think Cordelia and Fred are different. Jasmine took over Cordelia, hollowed out her energy to give birth to herself. Jasmine’s conscience was in her throughout the pregnancy. That’s why I am perfectly OK with lack of screen time on the mourning of Cordelia’s death. Afterall, she was gone long ago, and it’s just her body they are burying. Illyria on the other hand acts more like virus which tend to mutate and take up genes of its host, Fred. Think about bird flu in Asia. Comparing the beginning and the ending of ‘Shell’, you can already see more emotions in Ilyria. How much of Fred is retained, we have to wait and see.
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