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Post by Rachael on Mar 8, 2004 0:34:46 GMT -5
Being a lurker here for a while, I couldn’t help admiring insightful review & responses seen on this board. Thanks for the good work. Here is my first post and my random babbling on the episode. I agree that the sarcophogus stuck in custom seems weird but that idea grows on me. The teleportation from the Deeper Well was set in motion million years ago and as Knox says, there weren’t many followers of Illyria now. With the clueless Knox as the high priest, it wouldn’t be far-fetched to assume no Illyria’s follower is powerful enough to teleport it to W&H and someone screwed up resulting in the sarcophogus stuck in the custom. It actually reinforce the helplessness of Illyria -- her old army is gone and his present followers are idiots. Illyria is not a Senior Partner and I wouldn’t be surprised if W&H is the one destroying her temple & army. My gut feeling is W&H rise to power because the Old Ones are out of the picture and they are naturally against Jasmine or Illyria returning to share their glory. Illyria would probably team up with Angel to revenge on W&H. Illyria & Fred vs Jasmine & Cordelia Is Fred dead or is she reborn as ‘Illyria’, like phoenix risen from ashes ? This is where I think Cordelia and Fred are different. Jasmine took over Cordelia, hollowed out her energy to give birth to herself. Jasmine’s conscience was in her throughout the pregnancy. That’s why I am perfectly OK with lack of screen time on the mourning of Cordelia’s death. Afterall, she was gone long ago, and it’s just her body they are burying. Illyria on the other hand acts more like virus which tend to mutate and take up genes of its host, Fred. Think about bird flu in Asia. Comparing the beginning and the ending of ‘Shell’, you can already see more emotions in Ilyria. How much of Fred is retained, we have to wait and see. Welcome, loserA! We had much discussion all week on this topic over on the main board; you should check it out, if you haven't already done so. Not sure I agree with your comparison of Fred and Illyria - Cordy's body was basically left intact (although her mind was apparently unrecoverable in life), while Fred's is the one hollowed out - although the data on what happened to her soul come from unreliable sources, we can be fairly certain that her body is dead. Hollowed out in the literal sense. I agree that it remains to be seen how much, if any, of the real Fred survives in Illyria. The burden is definitely on showing that it IS there, though - right now, really, she's almost none of Fred. As Rob mentioned last night - I want the real Fred back. Accept no substitutes. Again, welcome, and head on over to the Main Board for a spell.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Mar 8, 2004 0:35:13 GMT -5
Depends on what kind of physics you do - experimental physicists deal with all sorts of very hazardous materials. Just sayin'. My last contact with physics was at age 16 when I could thankfully leave it behind and never no more think on it (physics is one of those things I'm aware other people can find interesting.) From observing my friends and hearing them talk about their physics lessons, which they took at university level, I have come to the conclusion that any and all materials can become hazardous when handled by a physicist. Hot, cold, shiny, sparky, radioactive... apparently fun for practical jokes... *sigh and head in hands*. I have kind of an obsessive compulsive problem with the concept of germs, so I tend to overreact, but I think 'box with dead person in it' when I think sarcophagus. Which could be all kinds of bad, including fatal mould spores and possible really old smallpox and... well, lots of stuff. Also even if it cant harm you, you and an uncontrolled climate can surely harm it. Put it in a climate controlled area and maybe the contents wont fall apart or go squooshy. But I also have a problem with the 'oooh! shiny!' impulse. I'd have touched the crystal in like a microsecond.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 8, 2004 0:39:38 GMT -5
Being a lurker here for a while, I couldn’t help admiring insightful review & responses seen on this board. Thanks for the good work. Here is my first post and my random babbling on the episode. I agree that the sarcophogus stuck in custom seems weird but that idea grows on me. The teleportation from the Deeper Well was set in motion million years ago and as Knox says, there weren’t many followers of Illyria now. With the clueless Knox as the high priest, it wouldn’t be far-fetched to assume no Illyria’s follower is powerful enough to teleport it to W&H and someone screwed up resulting in the sarcophogus stuck in the custom. It actually reinforce the helplessness of Illyria -- her old army is gone and his present followers are idiots. Illyria is not a Senior Partner and I wouldn’t be surprised if W&H is the one destroying her temple & army. My gut feeling is W&H rise to power because the Old Ones are out of the picture and they are naturally against Jasmine or Illyria returning to share their glory. Illyria would probably team up with Angel to revenge on W&H. Illyria & Fred vs Jasmine & Cordelia Is Fred dead or is she reborn as ‘Illyria’, like phoenix risen from ashes ? This is where I think Cordelia and Fred are different. Jasmine took over Cordelia, hollowed out her energy to give birth to herself. Jasmine’s conscience was in her throughout the pregnancy. That’s why I am perfectly OK with lack of screen time on the mourning of Cordelia’s death. Afterall, she was gone long ago, and it’s just her body they are burying. Illyria on the other hand acts more like virus which tend to mutate and take up genes of its host, Fred. Think about bird flu in Asia. Comparing the beginning and the ending of ‘Shell’, you can already see more emotions in Ilyria. How much of Fred is retained, we have to wait and see. I'm glad you've decided to delurk and give us your "maiden" post, which has lots of good ideas, especially contrasting the relationship between Jasmine/Cordelia and Illyria/Fred. However, PLEASE choose another screen name! I refuse to address anyone posting on this board as a "loser" of any description! Come again, post often...under a different screen name, O Much-Welcomed Guest!
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Post by Rachael on Mar 8, 2004 0:56:41 GMT -5
I'm glad you've decided to delurk and give us your "maiden" post, which has lots of good ideas, especially contrasting the relationship between Jasmine/Cordelia and Illyria/Fred. However, PLEASE choose another screen name! I refuse to address anyone posting on this board as a "loser" of any description! Come again, post often...under a different screen name, O Much-Welcomed Guest! I was thinking much the same about screen name, but couldn't come up with a tactful way to say it. Leave it to Nan.
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Post by Cal on Mar 8, 2004 8:55:07 GMT -5
Excellent review, as usual, Nan! I hope Fred can return, but I have the awful feeling that she really has gone for good. I so hope that I'm wrong!
Well done Nan!
Cal
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Post by KMInfinity on Mar 8, 2004 9:55:22 GMT -5
Simply a fantastic review Nan. I really was bowled over. For some reason, I guess since I haven't had much personal time this week and therefore not much time on the board, I hadn't recognized the analogy of shells and chrysalis. D'oh. I really think you developed all the possibilities for Illyria/Fred so well, and I am still full of hope. About many things, on many levels.
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Tesla
Junior S'cubie
the ice is getting thinner
Posts: 11
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Post by Tesla on Mar 8, 2004 10:25:52 GMT -5
Nan, your review was as always thoughtful and downright literary.
Since I'm all about the vamps, I was tremendously interested in all the Angel/Spike interaction in this episode. The way they were on the plane, with Spike talking about airline bottles, reminded me of the earlier talk on the bridge in the previous episode. Wesley, in the first season of AtS, told Cordelia that British men talk about inconsequental matters--"Would you like some tea?" instead of going right to the point.
I've always been struck regarding Spike's clinging to his assumed Mancunian accent, and Angel sounding completely American. Spike talking about the hole in the world seemed to me to be a very British reaction to the choice of Fred vs. the world: to talk about something else ("the weather"); but to *talk*. Angel is silent, but Spike talks
Additionally, Angel's diffident (thanks, Jwaneeta) "You're staying, then?" is a nice counterpoint to the previous episode's "I can't do this anymore."
Spike affirming that ugly is "where I live" is a nice reminder of his years in a crypt, in a basement, unappreciated by the Scoobie Gang and unacknowledged as Buffy's lover, considered a "thing" and continuously mocked. Living on the Hellmouth vs. a straight fight against the forces of evil alongside the one being who does, however reluctantly, acknowledges their relationship? "You've got two of them right here."
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Post by Sue on Mar 8, 2004 10:27:47 GMT -5
Nan, your review was as always thoughtful and downright literary. Since I'm all about the vamps, I was tremendously interested in all the Angel/Spike interaction in this episode. The way they were on the plane, with Spike talking about airline bottles, reminded me of the earlier talk on the bridge in the previous episode. Wesley, in the first season of AtS, told Cordelia that British men talk about inconsequental matters--"Would you like some tea?" instead of going right to the point. I've always been struck regarding Spike's clinging to his assumed Mancunian accent, and Angel sounding completely American. Spike talking about the hole in the world seemed to me to be a very British reaction to the choice of Fred vs. the world: to talk about something else ("the weather"); but to *talk*. Angel is silent, but Spike talks Additionally, Angel's diffident (thanks, Jwaneeta) "You're staying, then?" is a nice counterpoint to the previous episode's "I can't do this anymore." Spike affirming that ugly is "where I live" is a nice reminder of his years in a crypt, in a basement, unappreciated by the Scoobie Gang and unacknowledged as Buffy's lover, considered a "thing" and continuously mocked. Living on the Hellmouth vs. a straight fight against the forces of evil alongside the one being who does, however reluctantly, acknowledges their relationship? "You've got two of them right here." Sorry, sorry. I just printed off the review and haven't read it yet, but couldn't pass up the chance to say "Hi Tesla" and: Congratulations on having graduated to "Junior S'cubie"!
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
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Post by tkent on Mar 8, 2004 10:59:03 GMT -5
1»??<uthor=Tesla link=board=review&thread=1078616073&start=21#1 date=1078759552]The way they were on the plane, with Spike talking about airline bottles, reminded me of the earlier talk on the bridge in the previous episode. Wesley, in the first season of AtS, told Cordelia that British men talk about inconsequental matters--"Would you like some tea?" instead of going right to the point. [/quote]
First off, great anaylsis Nan and everyone else!
I was totally absorbed by the scene in the plane. To me it was just as important as Spike sitting on the stairs. I loved the not so subtle references to perspective using the "little" JD bottles. Unlike when Spike and Angel were on their way TOO England. Then they had been sitting "side by side" and facing the same direction with a common goal and purpose.
The trip home was quite different. Not only were they physically facing different directions, Angel was still facing forward and was still thinking he could save Fred. I think at this point his thinking/methodology hadn't changed. Spike though, had "moved" on, was facing another way and talking about looking at things differently. He tried to assure Angel they'd made the right choice, was on his was to accepting that she was really gone. He had already attempted to move on to the grieving phase. Hence, trying to get drunk, which Lorne had started on right away as well.
The other most significant thing in the episode to me was Spike saying what HE wanted to do for a change. I know Nan already talked about it but I just wanted to reiterate. For Spike to say "It was what she would have wanted" pause a beat then to firmly say "It's what I want" was probably the first time EVER that Spike was doing something solely for his own reasons (for the good) and just as an attempt to appease/please someone else. I think he truly has found his place, with a minimum of fanfare, even if it is an "ugly" place.
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Post by Cheddar on Mar 8, 2004 11:44:48 GMT -5
I too loved the review, it was excellent.
I'm not very good at second guessing where the shows will go, so I am just going to sit on the fence about whether Fred will come back as Fred. I think there is merit in both story lines, one where true love wins and Fred comes back, and one where Illyria with some aspects of Fred, stays. I think the second one sounds more like a JW style story line since he seems to favor cursed relationships, but maybe he's changed his mind.
I think Spike saying that he wants to stay for the fight, an ugly one, that its where I live, is typical, and I don't see it as all that sad a choice or a commentary by Spike on who he sees his life. This is still the Spike who loves an all out brawl when the odds aren't in his favor. Its still the Spike who sought out Slayers, the only enemy worth fighting for a vampire. Because he may have chosen to fight for the good, but I still think he's firmly in the school of thought that there's death, there's glory and sod all else. Angel accepts his decision to stay with better than usual grace because he likes the fight to be on his terms and he wants the odds in his favor, and whatever else he may think of Spike on a personal level, Spike's presence evens those odds.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Mar 8, 2004 14:45:45 GMT -5
Thank you, Nan, another great review. You've taken all those different story threads and woven something beautiful from them. There's even some hope there.
Thank you.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 8, 2004 15:47:44 GMT -5
Nan, your review was as always thoughtful and downright literary. Since I'm all about the vamps, I was tremendously interested in all the Angel/Spike interaction in this episode. The way they were on the plane, with Spike talking about airline bottles, reminded me of the earlier talk on the bridge in the previous episode. Wesley, in the first season of AtS, told Cordelia that British men talk about inconsequental matters--"Would you like some tea?" instead of going right to the point. I've always been struck regarding Spike's clinging to his assumed Mancunian accent, and Angel sounding completely American. Spike talking about the hole in the world seemed to me to be a very British reaction to the choice of Fred vs. the world: to talk about something else ("the weather"); but to *talk*. Angel is silent, but Spike talks Additionally, Angel's diffident (thanks, Jwaneeta) "You're staying, then?" is a nice counterpoint to the previous episode's "I can't do this anymore." Spike affirming that ugly is "where I live" is a nice reminder of his years in a crypt, in a basement, unappreciated by the Scoobie Gang and unacknowledged as Buffy's lover, considered a "thing" and continuously mocked. Living on the Hellmouth vs. a straight fight against the forces of evil alongside the one being who does, however reluctantly, acknowledges their relationship? "You've got two of them right here." (Waving hard at Tesla ::wave!wave!wave!::) With you all the way on everything you say. Or as we increasingly say on the main board, eetah (ITA, pronounced a little crooked and then phonified, which in turn stands for I Totally Agree). I try not to get too intensively into the vamplore in the review, since that's not everybody's preoccupation, as it is mine. But there's grounds for it, in this ep, with lots of nice compare/contrasts and adequate glorious Spiketime! Love him in typical position, on the stairs, taking up the whole middle of the space! Exactly like a cat, that finds the geometric center of the room, allowing for typical traffic patterns, then plunks down in it and defies anybody to walk through or sometimes even past without molestation.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 8, 2004 15:51:57 GMT -5
Excellent review, as usual, Nan! I hope Fred can return, but I have the awful feeling that she really has gone for good. I so hope that I'm wrong! Well done Nan! Cal Hope you're wrong too, Cal. We shall see. To several S'cubies, this is a VERY emotional issue. I relate because although I'm not all that attached to Fred except as she serves to stir up intresting plot interactions and developments, I remember my reaction to Spike's immolation in "Chosen": I was weeping and singing "Let the Sunshine In!" for days. Because I identify there the way others do with Fred. So I'm entirely sympathetic to their angst, and reach and hold on tight to every scrap of hope I can legitimately see and grasp.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 8, 2004 15:53:34 GMT -5
I too loved the review, it was excellent. I'm not very good at second guessing where the shows will go, so I am just going to sit on the fence about whether Fred will come back as Fred. I think there is merit in both story lines, one where true love wins and Fred comes back, and one where Illyria with some aspects of Fred, stays. I think the second one sounds more like a JW style story line since he seems to favor cursed relationships, but maybe he's changed his mind. I think Spike saying that he wants to stay for the fight, an ugly one, that its where I live, is typical, and I don't see it as all that sad a choice or a commentary by Spike on who he sees his life. This is still the Spike who loves an all out brawl when the odds aren't in his favor. Its still the Spike who sought out Slayers, the only enemy worth fighting for a vampire. Because he may have chosen to fight for the good, but I still think he's firmly in the school of thought that there's death, there's glory and sod all else. Angel accepts his decision to stay with better than usual grace because he likes the fight to be on his terms and he wants the odds in his favor, and whatever else he may think of Spike on a personal level, Spike's presence evens those odds. Right you are: Spike loves a good fight, almost to the exclusion of his love life. Unfortunately, in Buffy, he found both....
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 8, 2004 16:00:25 GMT -5
First off, great anaylsis Nan and everyone else! I was totally absorbed by the scene in the plane. To me it was just as important as Spike sitting on the stairs. I loved the not so subtle references to perspective using the "little" JD bottles. Unlike when Spike and Angel were on their way TOO England. Then they had been sitting "side by side" and facing the same direction with a common goal and purpose. The trip home was quite different. Not only were they physically facing different directions, Angel was still facing forward and was still thinking he could save Fred. I think at this point his thinking/methodology hadn't changed. Spike though, had "moved" on, was facing another way and talking about looking at things differently. He tried to assure Angel they'd made the right choice, was on his was to accepting that she was really gone. He had already attempted to move on to the grieving phase. Hence, trying to get drunk, which Lorne had started on right away as well. The other most significant thing in the episode to me was Spike saying what HE wanted to do for a change. I know Nan already talked about it but I just wanted to reiterate. For Spike to say "It was what she would have wanted" pause a beat then to firmly say "It's what I want" was probably the first time EVER that Spike was doing something solely for his own reasons (for the good) and just as an attempt to appease/please someone else. I think he truly has found his place, with a minimum of fanfare, even if it is an "ugly" place. Agree with you completely on both counts, TKent. I think the page (of this ep) is clearly readable, and we're both on it.
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