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Post by Cal on Mar 8, 2004 16:09:50 GMT -5
Hope you're wrong too, Cal. We shall see. To several S'cubies, this is a VERY emotional issue. I relate because although I'm not all that attached to Fred except as she serves to stir up intresting plot interactions and developments, I remember my reaction to Spike's immolation in "Chosen": I was weeping and singing "Let the Sunshine In!" for days. Because I identify there the way others do with Fred. So I'm entirely sympathetic to their angst and reach and hold on tight to every scrap of hope I can legitimately see and grasp. I'm with you on Spike's death in "Chosen". I was devastated and weepy for days afterwards. I couldn't believe that Joss had done this. Even though it meant Spike was a hero, I couldn't get my head around it. I had no idea, at the time, that Spike was moving over to AtS. So when I watched "Chosen" his death was a shock to me and so final. I feel for the S'cubies who feel that way about Fred. I really hope that my gut feeling is wrong here. I will be as pleased as anyone if I'm proved wrong. I just hope Joss doesn't do anything like that to Spike again. I don't think I could take it twice! Cal
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Tesla
Junior S'cubie
the ice is getting thinner
Posts: 11
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Post by Tesla on Mar 8, 2004 16:36:09 GMT -5
Sorry, sorry. I just printed off the review and haven't read it yet, but couldn't pass up the chance to say "Hi Tesla" and: Congratulations on having graduated to "Junior S'cubie"!Thanks, Sue! Go, me! I think I've said it before, but I have a very schizoid take on our vamps. I first saw BtVS for the season 5 finale; when Angel appeared in season 7, I thought, "Who the hell is this? Buffy belongs to SPIKE!" and I only switched to AtS when I heard Spike was going there. Well, after buying ALL the DVDs for Buffy and getting caught up with the mythology---and buying all of AtS---I still think Buffy belongs to Spike, (and I adore him and JM) but I am one smitten kitten for Angel. So I can watch AtS with pleasure and be interested in the Fang Gang, but seeing the Angel/Spike dynamic really lights up all my circuits. The undead boys fighting Illyria together was one of the OTHER highlights of "Shells." (sighs in happiness) Once again, they're a great team.
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Rogue1
N'ubie
Always a Spike Lover
Posts: 9
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Post by Rogue1 on Mar 8, 2004 16:52:19 GMT -5
As always, I loved your review. I have checked the board every chance I had to see if you had written it yet and today I have success!!!! Your reviews always make things seem so clear. Whenever I watch an episode, I do so out of pure affinity for the show and at the time I don't really look for the deeper meaning and then after I read your review everything makes sense. I apparently don't possess the mental dexterity one needs in order to so throughly analyze the show and all its subtext. I dearly miss Fred and I would like to see her gradually return to herself. I hope that as time (however little of it we may have left ) goes by we will see just what a strong soul/spirit Fred had, in that, she is not really gone as they would try and have us believe, but that she is merely being supressed for the time being and that Heart she has so much of begins to assert its self and she will come back. I have been a fan of Fred's since the beginning. She has never been whiny, petulant or self-centered and she has always tried to be strong and be of help and not be a hinderance. One's first impression of Fred is one of frailness, the ultimate in the damsel in distress type but once you get beyond that you see an iron will and strong convictions. After Cordy "Went South", Fred became the Heart of the FG. I hope she returns, better for the experience. Once again, thanks for a great review and making things make sense.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 8, 2004 18:27:43 GMT -5
As always, I loved your review. I have checked the board every chance I had to see if you had written it yet and today I have success!!!! Your reviews always make things seem so clear. Whenever I watch an episode, I do so out of pure affinity for the show and at the time I don't really look for the deeper meaning and then after I read your review everything makes sense. I apparently don't possess the mental dexterity one needs in order to so throughly analyze the show and all its subtext. I dearly miss Fred and I would like to see her gradually return to herself. I hope that as time (however little of it we may have left ) goes by we will see just what a strong soul/spirit Fred had, in that, she is not really gone as they would try and have us believe, but that she is merely being supressed for the time being and that Heart she has so much of begins to assert its self and she will come back. I have been a fan of Fred's since the beginning. She has never been whiny, petulant or self-centered and she has always tried to be strong and be of help and not be a hinderance. One's first impression of Fred is one of frailness, the ultimate in the damsel in distress type but once you get beyond that you see an iron will and strong convictions. After Cordy "Went South", Fred became the Heart of the FG. I hope she returns, better for the experience. Once again, thanks for a great review and making things make sense. Spike has been all these things and I still adore him to death. Good character, I've learned much too late, doesn't necessarily equate as lovability. The "bad" non-PC folk are much more likely to have their troop of groupies, I think. And I'm glad you enjoyed the review. Hope you have occasion to drop by the main board some time during our 5 week desert.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 8, 2004 21:06:45 GMT -5
Nan! Another great clarification of so many plot points and ideas raised by this episode. So much that is circular. The end that is a beginning. The return to the start of this whole season - the "primal lie" that is the very shaky foundation for this law firm of cards the gang has built. The opening and closing montages that seem so much like an ending - but then so did the ending montage of Tabla Rasa when we first saw it. And, oh how many things were just beginning then. But, the best for me (Spike-aholic that I am). Spike!!! Sweet Spike playing with bottles on the plane, feline Spike sprawled on the stairs, pretty Spike all throughout. But especially smart-for-himself Spike! Yes!! Or as you put it so well: "He knows where he stands and where he’s going, though not where the path may lead him. He knows where he belongs and therefore where home is." <Happy sigh> I'm so glad we all get to be on that less traveled road with Joss. I never liked crowds anyway. Lola
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Post by Sunset on Mar 9, 2004 11:27:58 GMT -5
Hi, Nan, great review! I've really enjoyed reading it.
I just had a thought last night as I rewatched this episode. In addition to the fact that we are repeatidly told that "Fred is gone," I want to comment on that exact wording. Isn't it interesting that as many times as we heard that phrase that we are never told that "Fred is dead" in that many word's? The only times that Fred's death is specifacly referenced as death (and it is only 2 or 3 times) is when reference to what some one else did to her. She was the "woman you (Illyria) killed." Gunn "let her die." But when ever some one talks about the actually status of Fred herself, we're simply told that "she's gone."
As Angel said, "what does that mean, that she's gone?"
It is true that in our culture, we often can't bear to say that someone has died so we use euphimisms, but the consistant way that this particular phrase is used through out the episode makes me wonder. We use this phrase far more often in our everyday lives in ways that do not mean death. To say that someone is "gone" generally means that that person is just not in a specific place at a specific time with the speaker. The status of "gone" is always relative to the speaker. It is a "play on perspective."
The other use of this word is as a pasted tense of "to go." ex. Someone has gone to the store. Whenever we use this word, there is generally the possibility, and sometimes the expectation, that said person is going to be back, that the "gone" status is temporary.
So are the writer's merely tuning in to our cultur's dislike of saying "death" out loud, or are they trying to clue us in to the possibility of Fred's return?
If the later is true, then the next question that begs to be asked is where has Fred gone to?
~Sunset
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Post by Cal on Mar 9, 2004 12:19:08 GMT -5
Hi, Nan, great review! I've really enjoyed reading it. I just had a thought last night as I rewatched this episode. In addition to the fact that we are repeatidly told that "Fred is gone," I want to comment on that exact wording. Isn't it interesting that as many times as we heard that phrase that we are never told that "Fred is dead" in that many word's? The only times that Fred's death is specifacly referenced as death (and it is only 2 or 3 times) is when reference to what some one else did to her. She was the "woman you (Illyria) killed." Gunn "let her die." But when ever some one talks about the actually status of Fred herself, we're simply told that "she's gone." As Angel said, "what does that mean, that she's gone?" It is true that in our culture, we often can't bear to say that someone has died so we use euphimisms, but the consistant way that this particular phrase is used through out the episode makes me wonder. We use this phrase far more often in our everyday lives in ways that do not mean death. To say that someone is "gone" generally means that that person is just not in a specific place at a specific time with the speaker. The status of "gone" is always relative to the speaker. It is a "play on perspective." The other use of this word is as a pasted tense of "to go." ex. Someone has gone to the store. Whenever we use this word, there is generally the possibility, and sometimes the expectation, that said person is going to be back, that the "gone" status is temporary. So are the writer's merely tuning in to our cultur's dislike of saying "death" out loud, or are they trying to clue us in to the possibility of Fred's return? If the later is true, then the next question that begs to be asked is where has Fred gone to? ~Sunset Very interesting points, Sunset. I hope we get the answers before the season ends. Come over and join us on the main board. You will be a welcome addition to the S'cubies! Cal
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Post by Sunset on Mar 10, 2004 14:30:17 GMT -5
Thanks, Cal, for the invitation. I have in fact been lurking on the main thread for some time now. I just don't post often because of a very limited internet connection. I don't even lurk so much as copy and paste everything to a disk so I can read it at my leisure. All of the S'cubies have been really nice when I do post, though. I do enjoy reading all the insightful comments of everyone here.
~Sunset
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Post by LadyDi on Mar 10, 2004 15:49:03 GMT -5
I believe we will get Fred back. If ME wanted to leave her return for s6, they'd have waited to kill her off until the season finale (like Buffy at the end of s5). The bummer part is, I feel we'd see more of the consequences of Fred's journey in s6. So we'll get to see her back again, but not how she's been affected. Half a loaf, yeah?
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Post by LostSoul on Mar 11, 2004 1:02:37 GMT -5
Death of Fred and Cordy
I gave more thoughts to Fred's death and who is to be blamed. I couldn't help thinking the real culprit is actually Angel and Fred herself.
Gunn may have cleared up the matter with the custom but I guess eventually, Knox & Illyria's followers would get it done, may be through another client of Dr Sparrow. Knox is the one choosing Fred to host Illyria and if Angel hasn't made the deal with W&H, Fred would not have known Knox. There would be another victim, but not Fred. However, having said that, the whole FG, including Fred, agreed to join W&H. The FG have let their guard down while in W&H, especially for Fred who is the only one in FG who has maintained close contact with one particular subsordinate -- Knox. She even went for date with Knox.
Another example of fate & destiny resulting in death is Cordy. Last night, I watched the episode which Cordy choose to become a part demon. I couldn't help feeling the irony of the whole thing. Cordy became part demon so that she can maintain the connection with the PTB without falling into coma & die. But it turned out that the PTB become MIA soon afterwards and Cordy still end up in a coma & die. Is fate & destiny some kind of reverse Chao Theory -- no matter what course of action you choose, the end result is the same ?
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Post by Sammie on Mar 11, 2004 1:30:31 GMT -5
This may be pure, what's the term--fanwank?--but the Customs concept worked for me. It sounded like "Customs" was a euphemism for some act that would enable the sarcophagus to reach its destination, Fred, and make her Illyria's vessel, that act being a betrayal by one of her friends. That made sense to me in a mythic storyline way, kind of Judas-y.
They didn't exactly say *U.S.* Customs, or did they? Maybe the mail guy has more power than we thought. Joking with that last one.
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Post by Sammie on Mar 11, 2004 1:38:11 GMT -5
Sorry to be anal, but I didn't think I was clear about the Betrayal thing. I don't mean to imply that Gunn betrayed Fred directly, rather that by making the bargain for the brain boost, he went over to the dark side and betrayed their cause. Ok, you probably knew what I meant anyway.
Also I want to add Thanks for a really insightful review, Nan. I find the bifurcation theory extremely interesting.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Mar 11, 2004 2:20:20 GMT -5
'Customs' is an interesting word. It gets used for that whole government control of imports thing, but that isnt what it means when it isnt a name. That would be more like habits, old ways. So Gunn got the big box out of the old ways and into the new... yay Gunn...
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Post by Lola m running by on Mar 11, 2004 11:00:34 GMT -5
'Customs' is an interesting word. It gets used for that whole government control of imports thing, but that isnt what it means when it isnt a name. That would be more like habits, old ways. So Gunn got the big box out of the old ways and into the new... yay Gunn... Very interesting thoughts from folks on multiple meanings to "stuck in customs" - metaphor and language. I'm gonna have to think about this. My view has been that it was a "trap" created by Knox and Dr Evil Guy and the rest of their cohorts to suck Gunn into their plans. But I can see how there could be more than that. Or how my idea could mesh with your ideas. Will ponder this. Lola
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Post by deborah on Mar 11, 2004 15:28:17 GMT -5
Nan, I finally read your "Shells" review last night and all I can say is Bravo. Of all the quality reviews you've done this season this one is a stand-out, for me, anyway.
Back to work.
deborah
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