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Post by Rachael on Mar 11, 2004 15:42:44 GMT -5
Death of Fred and CordyI gave more thoughts to Fred's death and who is to be blamed. I couldn't help thinking the real culprit is actually Angel and Fred herself. Gunn may have cleared up the matter with the custom but I guess eventually, Knox & Illyria's followers would get it done, may be through another client of Dr Sparrow. Knox is the one choosing Fred to host Illyria and if Angel hasn't made the deal with W&H, Fred would not have known Knox. There would be another victim, but not Fred. However, having said that, the whole FG, including Fred, agreed to join W&H. The FG have let their guard down while in W&H, especially for Fred who is the only one in FG who has maintained close contact with one particular subsordinate -- Knox. She even went for date with Knox. Another example of fate & destiny resulting in death is Cordy. Last night, I watched the episode which Cordy choose to become a part demon. I couldn't help feeling the irony of the whole thing. Cordy became part demon so that she can maintain the connection with the PTB without falling into coma & die. But it turned out that the PTB become MIA soon afterwards and Cordy still end up in a coma & die. Is fate & destiny some kind of reverse Chao Theory -- no matter what course of action you choose, the end result is the same ? Hey there! If I haven't already welcomed you, then, welcome, LostSoul! Okay, now I'm gonna take exception to much of what you say (politely, though ). While I agree that Fred bears some of the responsibility for what happened to her, as does Angel, IMO the majority of the blame must be laid at the feet of Knox, and a not-small amount with Gunn, as well. Why? Well, because while it's true that Fred had to know that going to work at W&H would introduce new dangers into her life, and in fact had already chosen the very dangerous life of working with Angel in the first place, Knox is the one who actively made the bad choice. (Bad as in "evil", not as in "mistaken".) Knox's actions are deliberately to inflict harm (no matter how he sees it) on another human being, and specifically and horribly, on someone he loves. I'm going to use an analogy that is for illustrative purposes, and I'm NOT implying that I think you believe this, 'cause I'd be massively offended if someone thought *I* did, but: to blame Fred for what happened to her is to blame the victim, just like, for example, blaming a rape victim for choosing to wear certain clothes or walk alone at night. Yeah, she should know that walking alone at night is dangerous, and even have some idea what could happen to her. But the blame in that instance is unequivocably on the rapist who chose to harm her. Similarly, and less obviously, you could blame a police officer who got shot on the job for their own death, since they chose a career that would put them in that sort of danger. It's even natural, as the loved one of someone who died that way, to blame them. (As Wes blames Fred for her curiosity.) However, it's the fault of the person who pulled the trigger on that gun. So, yeah, Fred knew her life was dangerous, and yeah, she shouldn't have touched something that she knew might be dangerous, but Knox targetted her for death, and in the long run, he bears almost all of the responsibility. Welcome again, and post often!
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Post by deborah on Mar 11, 2004 16:33:28 GMT -5
So earlier in the week I said that Hole in the World was your finest review, and now I have to update my rating... Nan, this was just beautiful. It read like poetry - put a lump in my throat and gave me hope. "Spike, the gregarious, sits like a cat in the middle of oblivious activity, plunked down on the stars where everybody has to walk around him, like a stone in a stream, dividing the water’s course;" oh wow... Thank you for the information on Feigenbaum, and how one act changes everything. "The Road Not Taken" has been my favorite poem most of my life, it's very meaningful to me now especially. Your words about Lorne and the special signifcance of Fred to him makes it even more meaningful when he leaves the office, unable to help, and says '"I got nothing." (personal note: see the double quotes and the period inside?) ...Gunn's secret is out. Angel's lie of omission will soon be out. But there is hope, and transformaton. "we must remember that one kind of shell is a chrysalis—an intermediate stage, covering and protection for a transformation, from which something utterly different but more truly itself will emerge. No longer a caterpillar but a butterfly whose wings can flap up a storm no one would ever have looked for." wow. Thank you Nan. Nan, why I loved this review so much - what Patti said. I was awed. Your words rang together like fine crystal, chimes vibrating and resonating inside me as I absorbed their meaning and rhythms. Beautiful work, really. Again, bravo. I too kept thinkin WOW, and more than once I said to myself that is the one I wish Joss could read.
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Post by deborah on Mar 11, 2004 16:40:02 GMT -5
On the principle that every review must have some uber-embarrassing oops, to indicate the humility and imperfection of its writer, I find an utter incoherence inexplicably attached to the third bullet point under Miscellaneous. I have asked Vlad to remove the excrescence. DK, I don't buy the continents drifting explanation. That would have landed it someplace else, sure--but in customs? If W&H functionaries found it, why wouldn't they have seen it teleported on its way? And if not W&H functionaries, why would it be blandly entrusted to the equivalent of the mail, to be forwarded to...its destination--which they would know HOW? It's a complication needed only to involve Gunn, I think--either by the formers of the plan (presumably the Senior Partners) or by the writers. Not good enough. ITA. This point bothered me too when I watched the episode the first time, so I was glad you caught it. deborah
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Post by deborah on Mar 11, 2004 17:14:47 GMT -5
1»??<uthor=Tesla link=board=review&thread=1078616073&start=21#1 date=1078759552]The way they were on the plane, with Spike talking about airline bottles, reminded me of the earlier talk on the bridge in the previous episode. Wesley, in the first season of AtS, told Cordelia that British men talk about inconsequental matters--"Would you like some tea?" instead of going right to the point. I too was glad to see Spike declare that staying was what he wanted. (And I was happy to see that Angel accepted his decision and was no longer trying to send him away.) But I disagree that Spike's declaration to stay marked the first time he ever did anything for his own reasons rather than for pleasing/appeasing another. In my view, this significant change, this milestone in Spike's continuing evolution, had already happened back on BtVS's LMPTM. Here Spike, after deactivating TF's trigger by facing what happened with his mother as he faught with Wood, decided to let Wood live on account of he'd killed his mother. And he told Buffy, TOLD her, mind you, that if Wood even so much as looked at him funny again he would kill him. I think that is where we saw Spike's declaration of independence. No longer was he checking his own impulses and inclinations against what he thought Buffy would approve of and what Buffy would want him to do. He used his own judgement and acted accordingly. From then on, including his sacrifice at the Hellmouth, I believe he was acting for himself, according to what he thought was right. Not just according to what was right for Buffy. deborah
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Post by deborah on Mar 11, 2004 17:31:10 GMT -5
(Waving hard at Tesla ::wave!wave!wave! With you all the way on everything you say. Or as we increasingly say on the main board, eetah (ITA, pronounced a little crooked and then phonified, which in turn stands for I Totally Agree). I try not to get too intensively into the vamplore in the review, since that's not everybody's preoccupation, as it is mine. But there's grounds for it, in this ep, with lots of nice compare/contrasts and adequate glorious Spiketime! Love him in typical position, on the stairs, taking up the whole middle of the space! Exactly like a cat, that finds the geometric center of the room, allowing for typical traffic patterns, then plunks down in it and defies anybody to walk through or sometimes even past without molestation. Reminds me of a cat's cat we had when I was a girl. So certain was she that the world was her territory and all comers would naturally difer to her authority, that there were times our family would be coming home in the car, turn the corner onto our street, and find her ladyship proudly and attentively laying curled up in the very center of the street. That's the memory that was sparked at the sight of Spike spread out in the center of the W&H staircase. deborah
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Post by deborah on Mar 11, 2004 17:33:08 GMT -5
Nan, your review was as always thoughtful and downright literary. Since I'm all about the vamps, I was tremendously interested in all the Angel/Spike interaction in this episode. The way they were on the plane, with Spike talking about airline bottles, reminded me of the earlier talk on the bridge in the previous episode. Wesley, in the first season of AtS, told Cordelia that British men talk about inconsequental matters--"Would you like some tea?" instead of going right to the point. I've always been struck regarding Spike's clinging to his assumed Mancunian accent, and Angel sounding completely American. Spike talking about the hole in the world seemed to me to be a very British reaction to the choice of Fred vs. the world: to talk about something else ("the weather"); but to *talk*. Angel is silent, but Spike talks Additionally, Angel's diffident (thanks, Jwaneeta) "You're staying, then?" is a nice counterpoint to the previous episode's "I can't do this anymore." Spike affirming that ugly is "where I live" is a nice reminder of his years in a crypt, in a basement, unappreciated by the Scoobie Gang and unacknowledged as Buffy's lover, considered a "thing" and continuously mocked. Living on the Hellmouth vs. a straight fight against the forces of evil alongside the one being who does, however reluctantly, acknowledges their relationship? "You've got two of them right here." Just to say, Hi Telsa. I've seen you around some of the LJs I visit every day. Welcome to the S3. deborah
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Mar 12, 2004 3:28:42 GMT -5
Angel crashes through a window at W&H and lands on the pavement outside- when Illyria throws him, also when he jumps through the window to take out that thingy with the ring that would take him to hell. Can't remember the ep name cause I only remembered it on account of just now watching a songvid with that bit in. Do remember that was the lowest Angel ever got. All fall down.
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Post by Sue on Mar 13, 2004 15:43:16 GMT -5
Nan,
It's days later since I read your review, but I recall feeling that you had outdone yourself. This is an especially cogent and thoughtful piece (even by "Nan-standards" ).
Specific points:
This is a particularly hopeful take on the ending. I've read others say the gang seems even more isolated than ever, given that in the montage each one is alone.
Big step for Spike. (I am unspoiled but have to say that at this point I'd be very upset if SMG decided to put in an appearance and Joss decided to write her in. Given that he's had the season ending already planned I can't help but think that trying to shoehorn Buffy in at this point would produce more issues that it would resolve and seem very awkward. (I didn't think Angel showing up in Chosen was really handled all that well. I would have preferred him being more seamlessy worked into the plot earlier in the season and having to get back to LA to deal with stuff there.)
Which you then followed with specific examples of the characters and their "shells". As I've said before, I find it interesting that the title is not included in the showing of the episode as it is always to integral to the theme.
And this still seems a bit too sudden to me. I certainly don't trust her or assume that she's going to become a "white hat". I think she's just looking for another path for conquering the world. I'll be extremely disappointed if Wes doesn't stay suspicious.
I waver back and forth between agreeing with this: that the whole season is pointing toward uncovering the mind-wipe and dealing with it's consequences and believing that we're never going back to that plot point--it's over, done, and in the past. Part of this opinion is the thought that it would require way too much back-story to explain it to "new" (are there any) viewers and the fear of a "Bobby Ewing in the shower" resolution to the season.
Now this is clearly a line which, over time, is going to become a Jossverse classic. Like, "the hardest thing to do in this life is live in it." and my two Giles quotes, and "Out. For. A. Walk. Bitch."
Hopeful imagery. But what Joss considers new beginning (a Fred/Illyria hybrid?) is not necessarily what we fans most want.
Oh yeah, now I remember why I thought this was a particularly spectacular review.
Blown away!
Thanks, Sue
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Post by Linda on Mar 13, 2004 21:43:28 GMT -5
Hi Nan,
Excellent, wonderful analysis. It helped me to maintain some hope for our heroes (and Superhero Fred). I thank you for pointing out the impending transformations that everyone is going through. My inner Astronaut agrees with you that somehow Fred will emerge from her chrysalis as well. (My inner Caveman is still howling "Fred GONE?!")
I also want to thank you for pointing out that Illyria repeated Fred's last words to Wes. I think that is a sign that they are significant. The exact quote was "Wesley, why can't I stay?" To me that implies that Fred's entire essence is GOING somewhere. Not being destroyed. So. Hope. (Real hope. Not the ringworm.)
I sincerely hope that Joss & Co. see everything your way.
Thank you again,
Linda, who is finding a whole bunch of hopeful signs, but doesn't KNOW if they will pan out...
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Post by RAKSHA on Mar 14, 2004 2:50:26 GMT -5
Nan, It's days later since I read your review, but I recall feeling that you had outdone yourself. This is an especially cogent and thoughtful piece (even by "Nan-standards" ). Specific points: This is a particularly hopeful take on the ending. I've read others say the gang seems even more isolated than ever, given that in the montage each one is alone. Big step for Spike. (I am unspoiled but have to say that at this point I'd be very upset if SMG decided to put in an appearance and Joss decided to write her in. Given that he's had the season ending already planned I can't help but think that trying to shoehorn Buffy in at this point would produce more issues that it would resolve and seem very awkward. (I didn't think Angel showing up in Chosen was really handled all that well. I would have preferred him being more seamlessy worked into the plot earlier in the season and having to get back to LA to deal with stuff there.) Which you then followed with specific examples of the characters and their "shells". As I've said before, I find it interesting that the title is not included in the showing of the episode as it is always to integral to the theme. And this still seems a bit too sudden to me. I certainly don't trust her or assume that she's going to become a "white hat". I think she's just looking for another path for conquering the world. I'll be extremely disappointed if Wes doesn't stay suspicious. I waver back and forth between agreeing with this: that the whole season is pointing toward uncovering the mind-wipe and dealing with it's consequences and believing that we're never going back to that plot point--it's over, done, and in the past. Part of this opinion is the thought that it would require way too much back-story to explain it to "new" (are there any) viewers and the fear of a "Bobby Ewing in the shower" resolution to the season. Now this is clearly a line which, over time, is going to become a Jossverse classic. Like, "the hardest thing to do in this life is live in it." and my two Giles quotes, and "Out. For. A. Walk. Bitch." Hopeful imagery. But what Joss considers new beginning (a Fred/Illyria hybrid?) is not necessarily what we fans most want. Oh yeah, now I remember why I thought this was a particularly spectacular review. Blown away! Thanks, Sue ITA that Nan outdid herself in this review.
Also, your point that a Fred/Illyria hybrid (Frillyria? Illyriad?) might not be what the fans want even if JW considers it a new beginning - since when does JW always do what the fans want? I've always thought that JW did what JW wanted to do, what he thought was best for the story, not what WE or any other group of fans might prefer. Otherwise, Buffy would be happily draped all over Angel right now; or sharing Spike's gloomy basement apartment. [glow=purple,2,300] ::)GAIL [/glow]
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Post by nmcil on Apr 3, 2004 14:16:19 GMT -5
Hello Nan -
Was just reading all the great thoughts from your wonderful review of Shells. I also loved it, as I do all your others - particularly the imagery from Spike sitting alone on the steps, the walk way either up or down the ladder. Can't help thinking about the allusion of making moral choices or higher and lower beings and states of consciousness something akin to The States of Being in the Chakras.
From my personal point of view, Angel and all the AI members are representations of the states of being in the journey along The Chakra Ladder.
Your description of Fred/Illyria and the transformation from chrysalis is beautiful and so right on. And while many viewers would want Fred to return, I actually love the idea of the Fred/Illyria hybrid.
This hybrid, in the sense of the mythic "New Begining and Creative Energy," is a wonderous image - possibly the new myth for our new world. We are no longer fragments in nationhood, but one world with people who must live as one not separate - notice all the world maps and globes in the various offices. Starting with Fred we have the imagery of worlds, Illyria/Fred could be the new human; the resolution of caveman vs astronaut ' The Instincts of our primal being married to Our Intellect. Like I said, this is my personal interpretation of this season.
Just wanted to refer back to Convictions and the set design - The Butterfly is killed and the Catepillar remains along with the message on the blackboard "be quite and do your work," -sylbols of transformations and meditation, both vital in the life cycle and the ways in which man can choose how to live in this world of sorrow and beauty.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 3, 2004 16:38:48 GMT -5
Hello Nan - Was just reading all the great thoughts from your wonderful review of Shells. I also loved it, as I do all your others - particularly the imagery from Spike sitting alone on the steps, the walk way either up or down the ladder. Can't help thinking about the allusion of making moral choices or higher and lower beings and states of consciousness something akin to The States of Being in the Chakras. From my personal point of view, Angel and all the AI members are representations of the states of being in the journey along The Chakra Ladder. Your description of Fred/Illyria and the transformation from chrysalis is beautiful and so right on. And while many viewers would want Fred to return, I actually love the idea of the Fred/Illyria hybrid. This hybrid, in the sense of the mythic "New Begining and Creative Energy," is a wonderous image - possibly the new myth for our new world. We are no longer fragments in nationhood, but one world with people who must live as one not separate - notice all the world maps and globes in the various offices. Starting with Fred we have the imagery of worlds, Illyria/Fred could be the new human; the resolution of caveman vs astronaut ' The Instincts of our primal being married to Our Intellect. Like I said, this is my personal interpretation of this season. Just wanted to refer back to Convictions and the set design - The Butterfly is killed and the Catepillar remains along with the message on the blackboard "be quite and do your work," -sylbols of transformations and meditation, both vital in the life cycle and the ways in which man can choose how to live in this world of sorrow and beauty. Nice post, nmcil . . . good insight and nicely worded . . . I don't know if all the spots are taken up or not, but if not, you might want to consider doing a guest review, perhaps? Or an essay for our essay site? No pressure - but I am just always trying to recruit when I spot potential . . . and we are so blessed with it here at S3.
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Post by nmcil on Apr 4, 2004 13:58:11 GMT -5
Nice post, nmcil . . . good insight and nicely worded . . . I don't know if all the spots are taken up or not, but if not, you might want to consider doing a guest review, perhaps? Or an essay for our essay site? No pressure - but I am just always trying to recruit when I spot potential . . . and we are so blessed with it here at S3. Nan - Your suggestion to try an essay I consider a great honor - I am not qualified to attempt anything on that level. I am a new student to the study of mythic systems and Jungian archetypes, step one in about the needed million. I am actually a visual artist and have done many studies, paintings and digital work, on Spike, JM and the Whedonverse. My world has changed so much from my encounter in TVland with The Whedonverse - who said TV is a total loss? I shall continue to study and learn as much as I can about the myths and the archetypes that motivate so much of human conduct, their social structures and dream world projections.
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Post by Karen on Apr 4, 2004 16:16:09 GMT -5
Hello Nan - Was just reading all the great thoughts from your wonderful review of Shells. I also loved it, as I do all your others - particularly the imagery from Spike sitting alone on the steps, the walk way either up or down the ladder. Can't help thinking about the allusion of making moral choices or higher and lower beings and states of consciousness something akin to The States of Being in the Chakras. From my personal point of view, Angel and all the AI members are representations of the states of being in the journey along The Chakra Ladder. Your description of Fred/Illyria and the transformation from chrysalis is beautiful and so right on. And while many viewers would want Fred to return, I actually love the idea of the Fred/Illyria hybrid. This hybrid, in the sense of the mythic "New Begining and Creative Energy," is a wonderous image - possibly the new myth for our new world. We are no longer fragments in nationhood, but one world with people who must live as one not separate - notice all the world maps and globes in the various offices. Starting with Fred we have the imagery of worlds, Illyria/Fred could be the new human; the resolution of caveman vs astronaut ' The Instincts of our primal being married to Our Intellect. Like I said, this is my personal interpretation of this season. Just wanted to refer back to Convictions and the set design - The Butterfly is killed and the Catepillar remains along with the message on the blackboard "be quite and do your work," -sylbols of transformations and meditation, both vital in the life cycle and the ways in which man can choose how to live in this world of sorrow and beauty. Great post, nmcil. I like the life from death imagery in "Shells", too. Kind of the whole mummy myth - death is only the beginning, etc. Illyria and her power has been unleashed - Fred has become "Wonder Woman", so to speak. I'm anxious to see if Gunn and Fredillryia will use their upgrades to bring down W&H - and really take control. And I like your reference to the Chakras. Care to elaborate on that a little more?
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Post by Riff on Apr 9, 2004 14:01:20 GMT -5
I’m a newbie here. To start with, I must say that found Nan’s review of Shells one of the most sensitive and insightful pieces of criticism it has been my pleasure to read. The way the images of the chrysalis and butterfly were used to tie together the various themes was brilliant.
I have seen a lot of tragedy on Buffy and Angel, but nothing compared to this. Putting aside the newness of Fred’s and Wes’s relationship (a typical way for Joss to pull on our heart strings!), there was a build-up of several shocks to the system. That we watched Fred slowly die in agony and terror was terrible. That we were told she can never return is terrible. But the idea that her soul has been destroyed? In reality we have no idea if anything survives death, yet in Angel, a show in which the afterlife is a commonplace, we know Fred’s essence is annihilated. The whole thing is just, well, soul-destroying. Even for Joss this would be a quantum leap in cruelty.
And speaking of quantum leaps… I have something else to add to the idea of Fred’s survival. The model of the atom that most of us think of, different coloured ping pong balls joined up with straws, is not the current version. Atoms are not really thought of as material objects in quantum theory. They are mathematical abstract, clouds of probability. In some sense materiality belongs only to human reality. Electrons, then, aren’t objects orbiting the atomic nucleus, though what they are is hard for me to say; apparently they are mathematically “smeared out”. They exist in groups called “shells”. Each shell has a different energy level. When the energy level (or “quantum state”) of an electron reaches a new level it “leaps” to a new shell. I can’t help but feel the episode’s title has some connection to this, particularly given Fred’s affinity for particle physics.
Knowing that quantum physics is based on randomness and probability, it occurred to me that it might link to chaos theory. I did some research on the web and, sure enough, the Feigenbaum Constant is used in equations dealing with the transition of electrons between atomic shells. I‘m afraid I’m unable to understand what this means, though!
The situation as I see it is this:
1) There is a link between esoteric physics and magic in Angel. Fred is able to gain new insights into particle physics by travelling through the portals.
2) In Pylea, wasn’t she scribbling all those equations on the walls of her cave in an attempt to escape, to go home?
3) In A Hole in the World, Wes reads A Little Princess to her, a story about a little girl who escapes from her awful circumstances into a fantasy world of her own making.
4) Fred says she is determined “they” will not take her.
5) In her pain she cries out “Feigenbaum!” The rabbit appears in the flashback at the start of A Hole in the World and when Wesley is packing up her things. What does this signify? And what was the purpose of those two flashbacks?
6) In Lineage she criticises Wesley for patronising her by saying he should have protected her. All her “boys” fail her this time, so maybe she has saved herself. Joss is very keen on female empowerment.
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